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A Town Called Malus wrote:And isn't a Warrior Priest also buffing all the detachments of the mother unit too?

You know, I think so. I'm not sure though. Does the WP give hatred? I am sure that rules like that carry over to detachments.

Sure, he struggles to make 2 more units that are poor viable in combat.

And being cheaper means nothing if he's dead. The whole point isn't about cost, its about keeping your buff on your unit. The shaman will rarely die (in my experience), while the WP will. Who lost 100+ points and no longer has buffs? The Empire player.

And again, with Orcs you dont pay the points for the buff, you pay the points for the wizard. Only 50 points is actually dedicated to the buff, the rest is the cost of having a Lvl 4 (with a very powerful lore, and tons of resilience)

Yes, WP confers hatred and the results of his prayers to his unit's detachments.

zeekill, good for you expressing your opinions. You seem to take critisism on the chin. If people didnt express their opinions like you then forums would be a boring place.

In my ignoramus, I think the nerf is good for warhammer. Instead of blasting stuff (arty) and magicing them away (saving power dice), tarpitting (stank) and refusing a magic phase (DD), empire generals gotta think more.

Prob be more like OnG & Ogres. Those armies no longer have "cookie cutter" builds now. Sure, there are staples but also a lot of variety too.

KSpen wrote:zeekill, good for you expressing your opinions. You seem to take critisism on the chin. If people didnt express their opinions like you then forums would be a boring place.

In my ignoramus, I think the nerf is good for warhammer. Instead of blasting stuff (arty) and magicing them away (saving power dice), tarpitting (stank) and refusing a magic phase (DD), empire generals gotta think more.

Prob be more like OnG & Ogres. Those armies no longer have "cookie cutter" builds now. Sure, there are staples but also a lot of variety too.

I agree with most of your post, but like I said before I think we were over-nerfed.

Also O&G and Ogres have constants in just about every list. For O&G its SOBU and mangler squigs. For Ogres its Mournfangs and Ironblasters. Not so much cookie-cutter within each list, but each list features those choices which are just so obvious and stand out as so powerful that everyone takes them (competitively)

I think there's a difference between 'staples' and entire 'cookie cutter' lists.

I think we'll just have to wait and see how people fair with the new book in actual play - there seem to be plenty of pros and cons and it's pretty hard (impossible) to model each unit's effectiveness holistically on paper.

I think the only think that got overnerfed was the Mortar. Str2 and a price hike was abit much.

Everything else was pretty much what I expected it to be. Cannons more expensive, check. Warrior Priest nerf, check. Steamtank nerf, check.


The whole deal with State Troops is abit of a "WTF?" moment but when you consider all the easy buffs they have access to their price is more reasonable. Halberdier Hordes with Hatred and +1 to hit is not something I want to be on the wrong side of.

karlosovic wrote:I think there's a difference between 'staples' and entire 'cookie cutter' lists.

Yes. Cookie cutter lists usually feature staples. But that's the thing. Right now the 3 more powerful 8th edition books (in the opinions of people on forum sites as far as I've seen, for those that are wondering my source) are Ogres and Orcs.

Within 30 minutes of opening the Orc book I knew for a fact that SOBU and Manglers would be a staple in every list because of how powerful they are.
Within 1-2 hours of me opening the Ogre book (took me longer since ogres are a pretty unique army, being entirely monstrous and whatnot) I knew Ironblasters and Mournfangs would be staples because of how powerful they are.

Its been several days since I've looked at the Empire book, and I am unimpressed by everything in it. I can see Stank and Demigryphs being staples. But not because they are very powerful, just because we have nothing better. That is saddening to say the least.

Edit: Not to say that they are bad, just not amazing (such as those choices for Orcs and Ogres)

Grey Templar wrote:I think the only think that got overnerfed was the Mortar. Str2 and a price hike was abit much.

Everything else was pretty much what I expected it to be. Cannons more expensive, check. Warrior Priest nerf, check. Steamtank nerf, check.

The whole deal with State Troops is abit of a "WTF?" moment but when you consider all the easy buffs they have access to their price is more reasonable. Halberdier Hordes with Hatred and +1 to hit is not something I want to be on the wrong side of.

I agree will all of this but the "easy buffs."

Your buffs are bound, so you don't get bonus to cast. Your opponent will get +4 to dispel and often +2 on a supporting caster as well. Buffs will not be particularly easy to give out, especially considering you need multiple at once to make our units viable in combat compared to other things you may be facing.

Grey Templar wrote:I think the only think that got overnerfed was the Mortar. Str2 and a price hike was abit much.

Even then I think the mortar is still useful against the right opponent, which tells you how good they used to be. Then again, they might just be years of goodwill built up by my little mortar brigade. I think I'll still take one in about half of my lists.

The other unit that got over-nerfed was swordsmen, who went down in effectiveness (a little from the IN drop, a lot from their parry save now being fairly pointless because the ward save is accessible through so much else in the Empire list).

Everything else was pretty much what I expected it to be. Cannons more expensive, check. Warrior Priest nerf, check. Steamtank nerf, check.

Warrior priests, in my opinion, are about the same as they were. Sure I'll miss the dispel die, but the spells are better and the guys themselves are much cheaper.

Nor is the steamtank nerfed, merely changed from "unkillable tarpit that lost it's damage potential as soon as you scored a wound" to cheaper, more vulnerable unit, but one with way more killing potential, and one that can sustain that killing potential even once it starts taking wounds.

The two units I was most disappointed in were greatswords and flagellants. Flagellants, ridiculously, were made worse and more expensive, while greatswords were given a minor buff (ability to pass stubborn onto detachments) and apparently that was worth upping the cost by 1.

The whole deal with State Troops is abit of a "WTF?" moment but when you consider all the easy buffs they have access to their price is more reasonable. Halberdier Hordes with Hatred and +1 to hit is not something I want to be on the wrong side of.

Halberdiers are still an excellent unit. A point more, of course, but they line up nicely with the various buffs offered by different Empire units. I expect my 50 man horde will remain the core of all my competitive Empire builds.

The other unit that's been made much better is the helblaster. Bizarrely, it's now more reliable than generic artillery.

zeekill wrote:

Yes. But unlike the Warrior Priest who is WS4 T4 W2, perhaps a 4+/5++ something like that depending on magic items. The shaman is T5 W3 5++ save and probably has the Fencer's blades so WS10.

Also he is buffing a unit that is good in combat already, making them godly in combat.

A WP struggles to make a unit that sucks viable in combat.

Lastly, the shaman is bought in order to obtain a Lvl 4, the 5++ is just icing on the cake. A WP you pay your points specifically to obtain the buff.

Very few people ttake the shrunken head on a lv4 anymore. Even with T5 fencers blades and a 5+ ward is not something you want o risk putting in combat.

Most people (bar themed lists) put the shrunken head on a lv2 (T4 W2), and keep a ngobbo lv4 to take full advantage of the mushroom rule.

In any case, as I said on the other thread you are taking a gamble hitting the WP. He has higher WS, T and, probably, AS than regular troops so you're sacrificing CR to take a shot at the WP.

Most things out there outside of gobbos, skavens, etc. (and those would have a slim chance of killing the WP anyway) won't be steadfast against Empire so it is a tough choice to make.




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zeekill wrote:Your buffs are bound, so you don't get bonus to cast. Your opponent will get +4 to dispel and often +2 on a supporting caster as well. Buffs will not be particularly easy to give out, especially considering you need multiple at once to make our units viable in combat compared to other things you may be facing.

It doesn't work like that.

Each WP can easily single-die their prayers, which will either make the opp burn two dispel dice or trigger a 1/3 chance of losing concentration (and thus putting themselves in a disadvantage against further casts from the empire wizard).

Boo-hoo, poor empire players... At least your army isn't reliant on units that are defunct in this edition, doesn't have to pay 5 points for strictly worse state troops and pays over cost for everything

And the icing on the cake is that knightly orders are arguably better than knights of the realm, and your special choice knights are almost as good as our killy-est unit in the whole book

at least we have the treb- oh wait, you've got cannon, mortars, hellstorms and hellblasters, and the stank, and better monsters

Your state troops are demigods compared to men at arms and have access to triple the buffs we do, while you get hatred, +1 to hit, cold blooded etc I can get a one time 6++, whoopity freakin do

EmilCrane wrote:Boo-hoo, poor empire players... At least your army isn't reliant on units that are defunct in this edition, doesn't have to pay 5 points for strictly worse state troops and pays over cost for everything

And the icing on the cake is that knightly orders are arguably better than knights of the realm, and your special choice knights are almost as good as our killy-est unit in the whole book

at least we have the treb- oh wait, you've got cannon, mortars, hellstorms and hellblasters, and the stank, and better monsters

Your state troops are demigods compared to men at arms and have access to triple the buffs we do, while you get hatred, +1 to hit, cold blooded etc I can get a one time 6++, whoopity freakin do

No, knights of the realm are better than knightly orders, i'd much rather have the ward save, lance formation, extra movement and the free champion in exchange for an armour save. The treb is is still an absolute bargain, 90 points for a strength 5 stone thrower? Yes please. Compared to mortars which are a similar price bracket 3 extra points of strength in exchange for a small blast template, a compromise i'd happily take. Men at arms I agree should be WS 3, however stick a damsel with a prayer icon and wildform you have a fairly decent unit. Remember that cavalry is our speciality, not infantry, the men at arms are just there to hold stuff up, they're not the backbone of the army. I agree that demigryph knights are better than are equivalent, however lack of a ward save will hurt them against warmachines, and they are still T3 like us. Overall whilst Bretonnians are an old book, they still able to compete with most armies, and our cavalry is still better than empires, if anything this new change will benefit Bretonnia as the gunline, the biggest problem is no longer a viable option for Empire. And our Calvary is still able to take on Empires, and along with Cheap trebs to thin out the hordes and a prophetess to stop the buffs, Empire should not be a problem.

jouso wrote:Very few people ttake the shrunken head on a lv4 anymore. Even with T5 fencers blades and a 5+ ward is not something you want o risk putting in combat.

Most people (bar themed lists) put the shrunken head on a lv2 (T4 W2), and keep a ngobbo lv4 to take full advantage of the mushroom rule.

What? The mushroom rule makes the lvl2 gobbo perfect for drawing out dice, and the Big Waaagh is a hundred times better for a Lvl 4 to take than the Little Waaagh. Little is a supporting lore. The spells in there will not win you games, they will just help a bit. The best spells being the Signature (which is perfect as it is guarenteed on a Lvl 2) and the Bad moon (which requires close range, not favorable for a goblin). Big Waaagh on the other hand is full of game-winning spells. Hand of Gork hands down wins games on its own (see what I did there? ). Foot of Gork is completely overpowered, the template is the perfect size to hit most units and its casting value is way too low. Ere We Go! is an AoE hatred buff for an army that is already incredible in combat.

jouso wrote:In any case, as I said on the other thread you are taking a gamble hitting the WP. He has higher WS, T and, probably, AS than regular troops so you're sacrificing CR to take a shot at the WP.

Who cares? Enemy units that are decent in combat will be winning by so much anyway that they can afford to lose a bit of combat res and kill the WP.

jouso wrote:Most things out there outside of gobbos, skavens, etc. (and those would have a slim chance of killing the WP anyway) won't be steadfast against Empire so it is a tough choice to make.

So things that are steadfast can attack him (4's and 5's? Big deal, that's 1 wound down with 6 attacks) because they will be steadfast anyway. Things that will be winning combat can afford to attack and kill him (say, 6 Lizardmen attacks? 4's and 4's thats 1.5 wounds with -1 to saves).

Either way over 2-3 rounds he is dead. Against tougher opponents like WoC or High Elf elite units he will no doubt drop on the first turn of combat.

jouso wrote:It doesn't work like that.

Each WP can easily single-die their prayers, which will either make the opp burn two dispel dice or trigger a 1/3 chance of losing concentration (and thus putting themselves in a disadvantage against further casts from the empire wizard).

Ok, so I see the result of your 1 die.
1: You fail
2: You fail
3: I attempt to dispel with 1 die, without aid from a wizard's bonus.
4-5: I attempt to dispel with 1 die, with bonus from a Lvl 2.
6: I attempt to dispel with 1 die with Lvl 2 bonus, or if absolutely necessary I throw 2 dice with the Lvl 4.

If you can 1-die things, so can I. And just like you can fail 1/3 of the time and lose some of your advantage in Power dice, as well as your ability to cast that same prayer that turn, I can fail 1/3 of the time and either lose nothing or lose my Lvl 2's concentration. Big whoop.

Or if something NEEDS to go away, I make it go away with 2 dice, and you can't cast the same prayer again.

Here's the thing I don't get. If you are spamming WP anyways, you have the +1 PD buffer, in addition to wizards. you are likely dropping what 5-6 channels at 2k?

So odds are you'll have a signifigant power dice advantage. The unit will have hatred already since the priest is there, and the reroll to wound, shield, or flaming. Correct me if I am wrong, if you are worried about being dispeled just drop a lot of dice, it's no worries as prayers are innate bound abilities, and no risk.

zeekill wrote:
Either way over 2-3 rounds he is dead. Against tougher opponents like WoC or High Elf elite units he will no doubt drop on the first turn of combat.

Not going to comment on the rest, but I felt I had to chime in here: Surely that's supposed to happen? Since when are you supposed to be able to beat the best elites in the game with your bog-standard halberdiers? I'm not being sarcastic; being relatively new to WHFB I don't see the issue...

Acardia wrote:Here's the thing I don't get. If you are spamming WP anyways, you have the +1 PD buffer, in addition to wizards. you are likely dropping what 5-6 channels at 2k?

So odds are you'll have a signifigant power dice advantage. The unit will have hatred already since the priest is there, and the reroll to wound, shield, or flaming. Correct me if I am wrong, if you are worried about being dispeled just drop a lot of dice, it's no worries as prayers are innate bound abilities, and no risk.

Count up how many points you are dropping into trying to get your magic phase off.

Count up how many points you are dropping into trying to get your magic phase off.

As opposed to what? every single other army besides Teclis and lizardmen? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, anyone with a level 4 on the table is spending a lot of points "trying to make their magic phase work." Warrior priests are 65 points naked and can cast 3 bound spells a turn, that's HARDLY a massive investment. If you take a wizard, a wagon of one variety or the other, and a few warrior priests, you might easily find yourself with 3+ channels and a bonus dice in one phase or the other.

Even at the most barebones level, 1-dicing casting prayers will succeed 66% of the time, and then 1 dice dispelling prayers will succeed very close to 66% of the time when you take into account wizard level, so it seems like enough variance to make for an interesting magic phase with the potential to go either way.

frest wrote:

Count up how many points you are dropping into trying to get your magic phase off.

As opposed to what? every single other army besides Teclis and lizardmen? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, anyone with a level 4 on the table is spending a lot of points "trying to make their magic phase work." Warrior priests are 65 points naked and can cast 3 bound spells a turn, that's HARDLY a massive investment. If you take a wizard, a wagon of one variety or the other, and a few warrior priests, you might easily find yourself with 3+ channels and a bonus dice in one phase or the other.

Even at the most barebones level, 1-dicing casting prayers will succeed 66% of the time, and then 1 dice dispelling prayers will succeed very close to 66% of the time when you take into account wizard level, so it seems like enough variance to make for an interesting magic phase with the potential to go either way.

The difference is that other armies use magic in order to do extra damage.

Empire have to use magic just to make their units viable in combat. Not only this, but other armies get a +4 to cast their spells. You suggest 1-dicing, which is effective, but at the same time means you are relying on pure chance to see what buffs you get, if any. What if you NEED buffs on a unit, right now? You have 2 prayers that provide buffs, and if you try to get them off with 2 or 3 dice you are only hurting yourself as now your opponent can use 2 dice himself in order to stop you without any fear of wasting DD. Its like the 7th edition Ogre book. You throw 1 die at each spell and let your opponent choose which to dispel. However now in 8th edition you are worse off because your opponent gets +4 or +2 to dispel with.

In addition, other armies can keep their supporting casters in nearly unreachable bunkers. Empire are forced to keep them on the front lines, and they are very fragile there. This means while your average Lvl 2 is ~110 points, so is the WP because you need to buy defensive items.

As for furthering your magic power, we have access to +1 PD, and/or +1 DD. That's it. Compared to other armies, that is quite poor. I will try to only mention 8th ed books as people don't seem to like comparisons to earlier books.

Ogres - Sickle gives +2 to cast, their lore's passive ability gives +1, Deathfisting neuters your ability to dispel.
VC - Mortis engine with Tome gives +2 to cast for EVERY wizard within range
Orcs - Magic mushrooms make Goblin casters like mini-Slann
I don't own the TK book, but I think they have something in there that gives an extra die or something.

Heriotian for TK gives +D3 to cast and casket gives +D3 dice

Johnny-Crass wrote:Heriotian for TK gives +D3 to cast and casket gives +D3 dice

Oh wow. I thought it may have been 1.
But +D3 dice on the casket, which is already a fantastic bound spell, laughs at empire's +1 dice

Having tons of easy to cast bound spells is more powerful then you think.

You can one dice them with no penelty, especially since WPs are pretty cheap for what they do you could concievably have 2 in each of your giant blocks(if you keep them cheap)


One dicing a spell is pretty annoying for an opponent. You have a 50/50 chance it goes off. Then your opponent has to either let it go or burn 2 dice at a dispel, because no one will risk their lvl4 on a single dice for dispel.

Its an attrition phase where you end up only getting 1-2 prayers off out of a possable 6-7, but you still have 3-4 dice to cast regular spells with and your units have been buffed pretty substantially.

Is it worse then the previous booK? Yeah, but you had it coming. WPs were way too powerful. Look at what they can do and not what you, deservedly, lost.

Grey Templar wrote:Having tons of easy to cast bound spells is more powerful then you think.

You can one dice them with no penelty, especially since WPs are pretty cheap for what they do you could concievably have 2 in each of your giant blocks(if you keep them cheap)


One dicing a spell is pretty annoying for an opponent. You have a 50/50 chance it goes off. Then your opponent has to either let it go or burn 2 dice at a dispel, because no one will risk their lvl4 on a single dice for dispel.

Its an attrition phase where you end up only getting 1-2 prayers off out of a possable 6-7, but you still have 3-4 dice to cast regular spells with and your units have been buffed pretty substantially.

Is it worse then the previous booK? Yeah, but you had it coming. WPs were way too powerful. Look at what they can do and not what you, deservedly, lost.

Again, the buffs they provide don't make our units spectacular, they struggle to make them even viable against good enemies.

Secondly, most people take a Lvl 4 and a Lvl 2. They can use a lvl 2 to dispel your single die casts with single die dispels (if you roll a 3, you don't even need to risk the lvl2). You have a 66% chance to cast it successfully, and the Lvl 2 has a 66% chance to dispel unless you roll a 6.

Thirdly, you only get your buffs for 2 rounds of combat (hatred only for 1). After that the WP either has to re-cast, or more likely has already been killed.

Lastly, if you fail to get the casting value required, you just threw away a dice and lost the opportunity to cast that prayer that turn, so it is not a flawless operation.

Ogres - Sickle gives +2 to cast, their lore's passive ability gives +1, Deathfisting neuters your ability to dispel.

Causes a wound on the unit, can instantly kill the slaughtermaster/butcher wielding it instantly at the end of a magic phase (Has screwed me over before). The passive requires a spell to be cast beforehand, and can cause wounds.

VC - Mortis engine with Tome gives +2 to cast for EVERY wizard within range

Expensive, even more expensive than the wizard stuff, and just as easier to hit, oh and it causes DOUBLE MISCASTS

Orcs - Magic mushrooms make Goblin casters like mini-Slann

And if they roll a 1 on said magic mushroom, they instantly fail to cast a spell, and on a 1-3 they take an additional wound.

I don't own the TK book, but I think they have something in there that gives an extra die or something.

But +D3 dice on the casket, which is already a fantastic bound spell, laughs at empire's +1 dice

If it dies units within 12" take D6 S6 no armor save, magical hits, also costs more than the empires magical thing

All of these things have Issues. Not to mention the warrior priests grant a nice buff and still gets concentration for dispel and casting dice.

Pray tell how does the casket die in most games?

Johnny-Crass wrote:Pray tell how does the casket die in most games?

From my experience, S10 stone throwers (Brettonia), tons of poisoned attacks, (Gutter runners, lizardmen), Cheap fliers (High elves), and any high powered magic.

S10 wounds it on 4's

Skinks do kill it but why are they not killing the war kats?

If a TK player does not shoot birds down he is doing something wrong

What good damage magic has 48" range?

Johnny-Crass wrote:S10 wounds it on 4's

Skinks do kill it but why are they not killing the war kats?

If a TK player does not shoot birds down he is doing something wrong

What good damage magic has 48" range?

You got me, I just know what I've seen from TK players.

Same here

But I do agree with your points on the Sickle, Mortis ENgine (I hate this thing and as a VC player I would NEVER run one) and I have had more bad shrooms than I could count when I played OnG

zeekill wrote:
What? The mushroom rule makes the lvl2 gobbo perfect for drawing out dice, and the Big Waaagh is a hundred times better for a Lvl 4 to take than the Little Waaagh. Little is a supporting lore. The spells in there will not win you games, they will just help a bit. The best spells being the Signature (which is perfect as it is guarenteed on a Lvl 2) and the Bad moon (which requires close range, not favorable for a goblin). Big Waaagh on the other hand is full of game-winning spells. Hand of Gork hands down wins games on its own (see what I did there? ). Foot of Gork is completely overpowered, the template is the perfect size to hit most units and its casting value is way too low. Ere We Go! is an AoE hatred buff for an army that is already incredible in combat.

Are you an orc player? Because I am. There are 3/4 other orc players in the area and as I told you basically no one fields a lv4 savage anymore. You MUST put him in combat which hurts his ability to magick the hell out of the opponents. You are putting a shaman there for the 5++ ward save, so you might as well take him cheap.

It's the same conundrum mages on big monsters face.

And foot of gork for me has gone from OMFG this is so great to simply good. It's OK against big blocks (assuming you get a repeat stomp and you don't get stomped in return) but it usually gets dispelled and, if it goes through scatters too much to be fully effective.

You want big waagh? Take a vanilla orc lv4 and put him in an arrer boy bunker.

Who cares? Enemy units that are decent in combat will be winning by so much anyway that they can afford to lose a bit of combat res and kill the WP.

Are you sure? Remember the prayer will stay in play even after the WP has been killed (hatred won't, though), so those CR points might hurt you. Those counter-charging detachments might be denying you rank bonus, etc.

So things that are steadfast can attack him (4's and 5's? Big deal, that's 1 wound down with 6 attacks) because they will be steadfast anyway. Things that will be winning combat can afford to attack and kill him (say, 6 Lizardmen attacks? 4's and 4's thats 1.5 wounds with -1 to saves).

You can always give him silvered steel or any other magic armour for extra survivality. In my experience, though, only the most elite of elites will hit the WP and would rather add CR. The best way to kill a WP still is taking his unit out.

jouso wrote:
Ok, so I see the result of your 1 die.
1: You fail
2: You fail
3: I attempt to dispel with 1 die, without aid from a wizard's bonus.
4-5: I attempt to dispel with 1 die, with bonus from a Lvl 2.
6: I attempt to dispel with 1 die with Lvl 2 bonus, or if absolutely necessary I throw 2 dice with the Lvl 4.

If you can 1-die things, so can I. And just like you can fail 1/3 of the time and lose some of your advantage in Power dice, as well as your ability to cast that same prayer that turn, I can fail 1/3 of the time and either lose nothing or lose my Lvl 2's concentration. Big whoop.

Or if something NEEDS to go away, I make it go away with 2 dice, and you can't cast the same prayer again.

Mathhammer says the dispelling player is at 2,5 disadvantage on average pre-channeling. The opponent will either burn dispel dice (thus paving the way for dwellers or some other game changer go through) or save them and let them go through.

You MUST put him in combat which hurts his ability to magick the hell out of the opponents. You are putting a shaman there for the 5++ ward save, so you might as well take him cheap.

It depends on what type of orc shaman your using, I run mine trying to get fists of gork (For epic punchyness), and 'Ere we go! (For even MOAR punchyness) and I use 'Eadbutt closer up so I can hit their squishy mages, and use hand of Gork to get into proper positions.

If you're taking the level 4 just to boost it up to 5++, thats wrong, what you really want that level 4 up in there for is a combined fists of gork + 'Ere we go!, so you gotta kit him for being killy. at the same time.

Maybe someone can clear this up for me, but am I correct that each and every warrior priest has 3 innate ability bound spells? So two warrior priests could cast 6 prayers (assuming they don't get an irresistible force result or some other issue that prevents further casting).
-Casting/Failing a bound spell has no bearing on the ability to try additional bound spells
-Each Warrior Priest knows 3 bound spells
-bound spells don't interact with the usual magic rules of "cast a spell once per turn" because it's not a wizard casting a spell, it's a character using a bound spell