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So today I buy my Empire book, and I start reading through it. I'm excited to see if all the worry was for nothing. I flip the pages, and with each rule, with each statline, with each point cost, I get more and more impressed with GW and Robin Cruddace.

Because I didn't think writing a worse book was possible. Everything that is useful went up in cost or was nerfed into uselessness, or both. Some of the things that are useless (Griffons, Cavalry, etc) went down in price, but it doesn't matter because in 8th edition these things suck anyway! Unless the halved the cost they will be useless. All of our magic items were also nerfed. VHS went up in price and is no longer optional. Armor of MI doubled in price and only gained a 6+ ward save as a bonus. No Rod of Power, instead they thought the Ring of Volans was a better include. Also, someone thought that it would be a good idea to make Warrior priests worthless compared to their previous selves, so byebye free dispel dice. Now they channel normally. Someone else probably thought it was a good idea to make bound spells the theme of this book. Everywhere you look there is a bound spell. Too bad bound spells suck. No bonus from wizard level, so you are at a -4 disadvantage with all of your casting. This makes bound spells worthless as a focus of your army. The Wizard alters suck too. T5 with 5+ armor, ZERO combat ability, and the light version gets 6++ ward. These things will drop to magic, shooting, and fast cavalry flanking in a heartbeat.

Lastly, and what pisses me off most of all, is that there is VERY LITTLE SYNERGY. All over the Army book, Cruddace gives us false pretenses of possible synergy which is actually useless and not possible. The entire book is one huge tease. For example:

1) The detachment rule says it transfers over certain special rules to the detachments if the mother unit has that rule. Here it names a rule that WE DONT EVEN HAVE ACCESS TO! Frenzy.
2) The detachment rule does NOT confer bonuses from many of the things we DO have access to. Namely +1 to hit from the Celestial Hurricanum and re-rolls to wound, ward saves, and flaming attacks from Warrior priest prayes.
3) The Stank now is worthless because of the very high chance it will just go and kill itself or make itself worthless. However the Master Engineer option is sitting there and saying "hey, I let you re-roll artillery dice!" But only for warmachines. Not for chariots.

Look at the cover of your Army Book. See how that guy looks... a bit slow? That's because you didn't buy Warhammer Armies: Empire. You bought Warhammer Armies: Empire after 20 generations of inbreeding, dementia, and a down-syndrome epidemic.

[/rage]

I don't like the exclusion of Volkmar's sweet fluff.

Reread the Battle Prayer rule. It specifically mentions detachments.

MagicJuggler wrote:Reread the Battle Prayer rule. It specifically mentions detachments.

Hmm... thanks on that one. I don't know why it isn't mentioned with the other special rules.

One other thing, can you find any way we can get the Frenzy special rule on a regimental unit? They had to have put that rule in there for SOME reason.

As a drawback. Note that Stupidity is also passed down-the-line as well.

Stupid Sexy Slaaneshi Subversives, Foisting Frenzy for foppish Foolishness.

I never quite understood that.

Frenzy:
Look at the fury with which they fight men! We shall fight with such as well!

Hatred:
Those enemies are heretics! For Sigmar!

Hold the Line:
We cannot fall! Our parent unit needs our support!

ItP:
Do you see fear in our parent unit? THEN WHY SHOULD WE FEAR IT!?

Stubborn:
Look with what bravery they fight on! Keep holding them off boys!

Steadfast:
We have the advantage in numbers! Hold on!

Stupidity:
The parent unit has derped! WE MUST DERP EVEN HARDER MEN!

zeekill wrote:I never quite understood that.
Stupidity:
The parent unit has derped! WE MUST DERP EVEN HARDER MEN!

Sounds like a sig in the works xD

So the Empire book is terrible then...?

IMO, it can work well in a friendly environment. But in a competitive environment, you see that the army relies on so many buffs to go off from magic and prayers and such all at the same time because they cant stand up to most enemy units. This means they need magic to live, and magic is too random to rely on constantly

Also check your sig, its cutting off for some reason

aww. Fixing now.

Dear empire hater, please take a look at the combat ability of a horde of empire knights.
And you're telling me they got cheaper?
Sweet.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:Dear empire hater, please take a look at the combat ability of a horde of empire knights.
And you're telling me they got cheaper?
Sweet.

-Matt

That's cheating.

Don't you know that when a new book comes out, or new rule book, you have to play with the old army, in the old way and spout off about how everything is terrible.

And if you are a real hard core numpty, the ranting starts before the book has even been released.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Dear empire hater, please take a look at the combat ability of a horde of empire knights.
And you're telling me they got cheaper?
Sweet.

Empire Knight Horde:
40 Knights - 880 Points

On charge, maximum potential
30 Attacks
WS 4
S 5
Ok, good

After charge, or if the enemy charged you
30 Attacks
WS 4
S 3
Nearly worthless


For 880 points, it has no breaking potential. Keep in mind you will not be getting all those attacks.

marielle wrote:
That's cheating.

Don't you know that when a new book comes out, or new rule book, you have to play with the old army, in the old way and spout off about how everything is terrible.

And if you are a real hard core numpty, the ranting starts before the book has even been released.

That Warhammer 9th edition is a piece of CRAP!

But I agree with you with all my heart. Apparently "hardcore" is the new term for "unwilling to adapt."

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Warrior priests get a -4 to their rolls to cast their bound spells. Care to explain that?

Also, warrior priests seem to be just as good, if not better now despite losing automatic dispel dice and some powerful prayers. I mean, they used to be limited to one prayer. Now they're not. You can potentially use all the prayers in a single turn. AND they're all unitwide, so there's that. Rerolls to hit AND wound on a charge is nothing to scoff at, especially if you manage to get a +5 ward save for everyone on top of that.

And steamtank is awesome now. Despite losing a lot of toughness, it's going to be useful all the way to death now. No more will it become practically useless at 5 wounds, since no matter what happens, you can always get up to 3 steampoints without major disasters happening.

Flagellants make me sad, though

zeekill wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:Dear empire hater, please take a look at the combat ability of a horde of empire knights.
And you're telling me they got cheaper?
Sweet.

Empire Knight Horde:
40 Knights - 880 Points

On charge, maximum potential
30 Attacks
WS 4
S 5
Ok, good

After charge, or if the enemy charged you
30 Attacks
WS 4
S 3
Nearly worthless


For 880 points, it has no breaking potential. Keep in mind you will not be getting all those attacks.

Don't the horses get an attack in your games?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Palmu wrote:I'm not sure where you get the idea that Warrior priests get a -4 to their rolls to cast their bound spells. Care to explain that?

Also, warrior priests seem to be just as good, if not better now despite losing automatic dispel dice and some powerful prayers. I mean, they used to be limited to one prayer. Now they're not. You can potentially use all the prayers in a single turn. AND they're all unitwide, so there's that. Rerolls to hit AND wound on a charge is nothing to scoff at, especially if you manage to get a +5 ward save for everyone on top of that.

And steamtank is awesome now. Despite losing a lot of toughness, it's going to be useful all the way to death now. No more will it become practically useless at 5 wounds, since no matter what happens, you can always get up to 3 steampoints without major disasters happening.

Flagellants make me sad, though

And the stank doesn't get instakilled by ini spells...

Palmu wrote:I'm not sure where you get the idea that Warrior priests get a -4 to their rolls to cast their bound spells. Care to explain that?

You don't get to add a wizard level to bound casts.
Just about everyone takes a Lvl 4 wizard, therefore +4 to dispel.
Therefore you are casting everything at a -4 disadvantage.

Palmu wrote:
Also, warrior priests seem to be just as good, if not better now despite losing automatic dispel dice and some powerful prayers. I mean, they used to be limited to one prayer. Now they're not. You can potentially use all the prayers in a single turn. AND they're all unitwide, so there's that. Rerolls to hit AND wound on a charge is nothing to scoff at, especially if you manage to get a +5 ward save for everyone on top of that.

Very true on the prayer bit, but it is difficult to get prayers off unless you spam Warrior Priests, and in that case its very expensive.
But they are NOT better than they were before. Free dispel dice are better than what they have now.

marielle wrote:
Don't the horses get an attack in your games?

Oh, sorry, 10 more WS3 S3 attacks. But that won't make enough of a difference in combat.

marielle wrote:

And the stank doesn't get instakilled by ini spells...

Boo! I liked it when Pit of Shades was an instant death sentence.

I'd like to point out that it's easy to wear dispellers down, because a roll of 1 or 2 is always a failure. A caster will always have more dice to roll than a dispeller, and those bound spells are fairly easy to get off with one dice. Sure, they'll be easy to dispel, but very risky if they do it with just one dice too. And if they use two dice, you just won by forcing him to use more energy than needed to counter a single bound spell. You'll have more where that came from.

And if they do dispel with just one dice, blam. Roll a 1 or 2, and you won't be dispelling gak with that wizard anymore that turn. Time to bring out the big guns.


Of course, I'm heavily opinionated and like taking far more risks than I should, nor do I really count in the times when you absolutely have to get that prayer off and roll bajillion dice to do it.

Well, I love the new Empire book....Helblasters FTW in my opinion. Plus warrior priests are 33% cheaper now. Also, the Heavens pimp-mobile is freaking awesome with an auto +1 to hit and a cool bound spell. I think the new Empire book is awesome and I will beatstick into the ground every army that disagrees with me.

zeekill wrote:

marielle wrote:
Don't the horses get an attack in your games?

Oh, sorry, 10 more WS3 S3 attacks. But that won't make enough of a difference in combat.

Really?

So in your artificially created world, how many casualties will the knights take?

HawaiiMatt wrote:Dear empire hater, please take a look at the combat ability of a horde of empire knights.
And you're telling me they got cheaper?
Sweet.

A 660 point (minimum 30 knights, more like 880 like zeekill said) unit should have some decent combat ability.

However, it's nowhere near the combat ability of a similarly priced "deathstar" unit for most armies. A 14-man Chosenstar with 2 shrines is less than 700 points, and would eat the knights for breakfast.

Gotta be honest OP comes across kinda like a whiny little bitch. How about folk get some games in and see how they need to adapt in order to play the new book. Its seems most of the ranting is about the stank getting nerfed oh well if you rely on one unit in your army book to win you games then you are a terrible player anyways.

marielle wrote:

zeekill wrote:

marielle wrote:
Don't the horses get an attack in your games?

Oh, sorry, 10 more WS3 S3 attacks. But that won't make enough of a difference in combat.

Really?

So in your artificially created world, how many casualties will the knights take?

It doesn't matter how many they take, they won't be able to dish out enough to break your average tarpit. Against a 5 wide unit, they get 18 attacks + horses. The moment those knights don't break a unit on the charge, they might as well be skavenslaves, just with 1+ saves.

The whole point of a deathstar is that it can kill everything and not die. That unit only does the second part.

Plus, some armies that unit just auto-loses against.

O&G - manglers + foot of gork, goblin tarpits, fanatics
Lizardmen - Dwellers + salamanders
Skaven - slave tarpits, tons of shooting that ignores Armor, HPAs
DoC - Bloodthrister wrecks that unit.

biccat wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:Dear empire hater, please take a look at the combat ability of a horde of empire knights.
And you're telling me they got cheaper?
Sweet.

A 660 point (minimum 30 knights, more like 880 like zeekill said) unit should have some decent combat ability.

However, it's nowhere near the combat ability of a similarly priced "deathstar" unit for most armies. A 14-man Chosenstar with 2 shrines is less than 700 points, and would eat the knights for breakfast.

Until the WoC get a new book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zeekill wrote:

marielle wrote:

zeekill wrote:

marielle wrote:
Don't the horses get an attack in your games?

Oh, sorry, 10 more WS3 S3 attacks. But that won't make enough of a difference in combat.

Really?

So in your artificially created world, how many casualties will the knights take?

It doesn't matter how many they take, they won't be able to dish out enough to break your average tarpit. Against a 5 wide unit, they get 18 attacks + horses. The moment those knights don't break a unit on the charge, they might as well be skavenslaves, just with 1+ saves.

The whole point of a deathstar is that it can kill everything and not die. That unit only does the second part.

Plus, some armies that unit just auto-loses against.

O&G - manglers + foot of gork, goblin tarpits, fanatics
Lizardmen - Dwellers + salamanders
Skaven - slave tarpits, tons of shooting that ignores Armor, HPAs
DoC - Bloodthrister wrecks that unit.

You are just typing now,

Jubear wrote: if you rely on one unit in your army book to win you games then you are a terrible player anyways.

No, that just means its a terrible game system, and why I don't play 40k anymore other than to whip out my GK army every 5 weeks to win a free battalion at a local tourney.

As for your whiny little bitch comment, I can call you names too, but that doesn't prove anything.

You say "oh, lets play games" but the fact of the matter is you CAN just break every book down to mathhammer and analyze. If you don't like that sort of thing, don't come on dakka or any other forum site for that matter. Go the the GW website and have your head in your a$$ as they whisper sweet things about the worst choices in your armybook and how they are some of the best ones. Then buy all those things that we already knew were terrible 3 months ago and "test them out" like you said. And THEN you realize you wasted 400 dollars on useless units.

Lastly, we are "ranting" about every troop getting nerfed, and all of our best magic items, and all our warmachines in addition to just the steamtank. If it was just a couple things, this thread would not exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

marielle wrote:Until the WoC get a new book.

But right now, they don't have a new book. They have their current book with its OP synergy.

Waiting for a problem to go away won't solve it.

Huh, this thread sure came out early....

I love it when people piss and moan about things they have yet to play or even fully read.

zeekill wrote:You say "oh, lets play games" but the fact of the matter is you CAN just break every book down to mathhammer and analyze. If you don't like that sort of thing, don't come on dakka or any other forum site for that matter.

hunh. And here I thought Warhammer forums were for things other than just mathhammer...

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

zeekill wrote:You say "oh, lets play games" but the fact of the matter is you CAN just break every book down to mathhammer and analyze. If you don't like that sort of thing, don't come on dakka or any other forum site for that matter.

hunh. And here I thought Warhammer forums were for things other than just mathhammer...

Nonono I mean't its for mathhammer and analysis.

Some mathhammer, some analysis in other ways. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that

Yeah, and there are Painting, Modeling, Fluff, Off-topic forums....

It's not Mathhammer or GTFO Dakka"

Which is what this post implies:

If you don't like that sort of thing, don't come on dakka or any other forum site for that matter.

Which is particularly ignorant on your part. Moreso even than your OP.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Yeah, and there are Painting, Modeling, Fluff, Off-topic forums....

It's not Mathhammer or GTFO Dakka"

This is general WHFB discussion, not modeling and painting.