Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

zeekill wrote:don't come on dakka or any other forum site for that matter.

It's still on Dakka or any other forum site though....right?

Does anyone else miss the days when people would test lists and new army books and THEN come to conclusions? I sure do. Y'know, that whole "adapt tactics" and "learn books" thing?

I'm sick of blowhards.

Ok, sorry, my bad. I was quick to speak. I sincerely apologize.

But if you dont want to analyze and/or mathammer, I suggest not posting on threads where this sort of discussion is going on.

zeekill wrote:Ok, sorry, my bad. I was quick to speak. I sincerely apologize.

But if you dont want to analyze and/or mathammer, I suggest not posting on threads where this sort of discussion is going on.

I suppose they are analyzing. By deciding it'd be best to wait to analyze.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

zeekill wrote:Ok, sorry, my bad. I was quick to speak. I sincerely apologize.

But if you dont want to analyze and/or mathammer, I suggest not posting on threads where this sort of discussion is going on.

I suppose they are analyzing. By deciding it'd be best to wait to analyze.

...

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
I suppose they are analyzing. By deciding it'd be best to wait to analyze.

Who needs DATA to analyze when we can complain and jump to conclusions!

We have data. We have the armybook. We can see the overpriced troops.

Jumping to conclusions would be doing all this from rumors

Or by not actually using the book for, you know, playing the game?

zeekill wrote:We have data. We have the armybook. We can see the overpriced troops.

Jumping to conclusions would be doing all this from rumors

And how many games have you played with em? And, just so I have the whole picture, how much Empire have you played up to this point, just so I know what perspective you have.

I've been playing empire since just before 8th edition started.

And people need to stop acting like its impossible to know whether or not something is overpowered when it first comes out. Day 1 I predicted GK being overpowered in 40k. After a week with only having seen (not played) 3 or 4 games, I predicted that in a tourney environment Tyranids would suck.

Is it hard to do 2+2? No, its easy.
Is it not also easy to evaluate bad troops + high points costs?

zeekill wrote: Day 1 I predicted GK being overpowered in 40k. After a week with only having seen (not played) 3 or 4 games, I predicted that in a tourney environment they would suck.

Um, what?

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

zeekill wrote: Day 1 I predicted GK being overpowered in 40k. After a week with only having seen (not played) 3 or 4 games, I predicted that in a tourney environment they would suck.

Um, what?

OOPS fixing now

zeekill wrote:I've been playing empire since just before 8th edition started.

And people need to stop acting like its impossible to know whether or not something is overpowered when it first comes out. Day 1 I predicted GK being overpowered in 40k. After a week with only having seen (not played) 3 or 4 games, I predicted that in a tourney environment Tyranids would suck.

Is it hard to do 2+2? No, its easy.
Is it not also easy to evaluate bad troops + high points costs?

So how many points is a basic Empire troop? Haven't had a chance to see the new book yet so I want to get an angle on what you consider to be a "high points cost"

A Town Called Malus wrote:

zeekill wrote:I've been playing empire since just before 8th edition started.

And people need to stop acting like its impossible to know whether or not something is overpowered when it first comes out. Day 1 I predicted GK being overpowered in 40k. After a week with only having seen (not played) 3 or 4 games, I predicted that in a tourney environment Tyranids would suck.

Is it hard to do 2+2? No, its easy.
Is it not also easy to evaluate bad troops + high points costs?

So how many points is a basic Empire troop? Haven't had a chance to see the new book yet so I want to get an angle on what you consider to be a "high points cost"

Sadly we can't post points, if we were allowed to I would help but I can't sorry.

zeekill wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

zeekill wrote:I've been playing empire since just before 8th edition started.

And people need to stop acting like its impossible to know whether or not something is overpowered when it first comes out. Day 1 I predicted GK being overpowered in 40k. After a week with only having seen (not played) 3 or 4 games, I predicted that in a tourney environment Tyranids would suck.

Is it hard to do 2+2? No, its easy.
Is it not also easy to evaluate bad troops + high points costs?

So how many points is a basic Empire troop? Haven't had a chance to see the new book yet so I want to get an angle on what you consider to be a "high points cost"

Sadly we can't post points, if we were allowed to I would help but I can't sorry.

Ah well. As long as it's less than seven (especially for halberdiers) then I'd consider it cheap but that's coming from an elf player.

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Ah well. As long as it's less than seven (especially for halberdiers) then I'd consider it cheap but that's coming from an elf player.

You have to keep in mind Statetroops are WS 3, Initiative 3, Ld 7, and only have light armor, they have to pay for a shield.

Plus they have no innate special rules like ASF or Hatred

zeekill wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Ah well. As long as it's less than seven (especially for halberdiers) then I'd consider it cheap but that's coming from an elf player.

You have to keep in mind Statetroops are WS 3, Initiative 3, Ld 7, and only have light armor, they have to pay for a shield.

Plus they have no innate special rules like ASF or Hatred

Well they'll hit on 4s against most non-hero troops and doesn't one of those crazy wizard chariot things give them a +1 to hit if they're close enough to it? That'll mean they're effectively hitting on 3s. They'll be hitting after Elves but as a basic Elf will need 4s to wound your state troops and then you get a 6+ armour save, that is not going to be a big game breaker. Your S4 will wound them on 3s with them also only having a 6+ armour save if they have light armour and shield, with no save if they only have light armour. With enough bodies you'll grind them down pretty easily, especially if you get off some buffs from your Priests. Chaos will be a different story of course but that's what Demigryph Knights are for.

Well, if we talk elves, you are getting an extra 2 ranks of attacks, you also attack first (matters once numbers start to get depleted) and you reroll hits. You will kill so many more halberdiers than they will kill of you.

Plus high elf magic is much more reliable and much more effective (assuming youre using life magic) if you want to argue prayers, then lets argue T7 elves.

If its dark elves, they plinkplinkplink you with their tons of double-shot S3 AP. its pretty much made to kill T3 6+ save troops

zeekill wrote:

Jubear wrote: if you rely on one unit in your army book to win you games then you are a terrible player anyways.

No, that just means its a terrible game system, and why I don't play 40k anymore other than to whip out my GK army every 5 weeks to win a free battalion at a local tourney.

As for your whiny little bitch comment, I can call you names too, but that doesn't prove anything.

You say "oh, lets play games" but the fact of the matter is you CAN just break every book down to mathhammer and analyze. If you don't like that sort of thing, don't come on dakka or any other forum site for that matter. Go the the GW website and have your head in your a$$ as they whisper sweet things about the worst choices in your armybook and how they are some of the best ones. Then buy all those things that we already knew were terrible 3 months ago and "test them out" like you said. And THEN you realize you wasted 400 dollars on useless units.

Lastly, we are "ranting" about every troop getting nerfed, and all of our best magic items, and all our warmachines in addition to just the steamtank. If it was just a couple things, this thread would not exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

marielle wrote:Until the WoC get a new book.

But right now, they don't have a new book. They have their current book with its OP synergy.

Waiting for a problem to go away won't solve it.

Well you cant even mathhammer for gak your over simplified analysis of Empire knights proves this.

As for magic items every 8th edition book has had the amount of magic items reduced and those that are left tend to be more for "fun" then anything else and that suits me fine having armies that revolve around a few trinkets is bloody stupid.

As for warmachines all that has changed is you pay what they are really worth now (even the mortar) its almost like GW have a plan for all the 8th edition books and they are just bringing Empire in line with everyone else.

The core of the matter is that you simply dont like change, while its never fun to have to buy new models for an army but that is what happens when books get updated the better players will move with the changes while idiots like you just rant on forums about how terrible your new book is /violin

I support zeekil on this. Had a look through the book today and I will not be coming back to the Blue n Gold any time soon. I loved the Waralter and all its sillyness, and they ruined it. Though I do look forward to the easy wins this book will give me when I get matched against it in competitive play

Mr Crass I am horrified to see an alarming lack of Brody in your avatar picture as a fellow lover of trashy woman i urge you to fix this problem asap.

I just got the Empire and VC books today. This thread made me read the Empire book pretty quickly. Well, look at the stats. I think there's a lot jumping to conclusions. If you're going to mathhammer, at least use math. But a few things.

-There is no master engineer (i.e., a 65pt Hero character) in a Steamtank. There is an engineer commander. So you're not going to get the heroe's rules regardless of the stank's type.
-You knew the stank was going to get a type as without one things float free from the BRB and other standarized rules and slowly get out of date. Rhinox cannons are charriots now. Mortis Engines are charriots. Everything is something, if they've released in 8th.
-Halberdiers are Orc Boyz with +1 str (from halberd) instead of T and +1 I, no choppaz, no Animosity. Same cost. That's a pretty solid deal. Oh, and they can have detachments.
-Greatswords are Black Orkz + and - here and there. But very comparable. And they can have detachments.
-Knightly Orders as core is pretty awesome. You can have your whole core have a native 1+ armor save and 6+ parry. That's pretty damn point denial. And a Priest or celestial can buff the ward.
-Demigryph knights are baby mournfangs. They are probably a tad overcosted, but not as much as it seems since they get the 1+ save for free and better LD (which matters since they will be solo) and WS.
-Mortar was going to get a point increase. Everyone knew that.
-The celestials aren't that great, but they are dirt cheap.
-Generic Generals are better.
-Witch Hunters are one of the scariest things I've seen in a while. Ranged sniper KB (against 1 "witch"). That makes Teclis cry so bad you can hear it all the way in Cathay. And they cost as much as goblin heroes. Every Empire army should have like 3 of these. With ability to take copious war machines and KB snipe heroes, they can basically take out any enemy leaders other than bunkered MI.

Mostly the point totals were tweaked slightly. The rules were tweaked slightly. They are tweaks than anyone who has seen 8th for a bit had to realize were coming. I'm a bit surprised they didn't ADD more. But I suppose, unlike some of the other armies, Empire always had a fair amount of unit choices, and they didn't want to take any away.

See, that's a good post right there!

DukeRustfield wrote:
-Witch Hunters are one of the scariest things I've seen in a while. Ranged sniper KB (against 1 "witch"). That makes Teclis cry so bad you can hear it all the way in Cathay. And they cost as much as goblin heroes. Every Empire army should have like 3 of these. With ability to take copious war machines and KB snipe heroes, they can basically take out any enemy leaders other than bunkered MI.

I'm actually a bit surprised I don't see more WH talk (at least on these forums). He's a character hunter w/ 4's across the board and is dirt cheap (pre-options).

Jubear wrote:
Well you cant even mathhammer for gak your over simplified analysis of Empire knights proves this.

As for magic items every 8th edition book has had the amount of magic items reduced and those that are left tend to be more for "fun" then anything else and that suits me fine having armies that revolve around a few trinkets is bloody stupid.

As for warmachines all that has changed is you pay what they are really worth now (even the mortar) its almost like GW have a plan for all the 8th edition books and they are just bringing Empire in line with everyone else.

The core of the matter is that you simply dont like change, while its never fun to have to buy new models for an army but that is what happens when books get updated the better players will move with the changes while idiots like you just rant on forums about how terrible your new book is /violin

1) I'm not about to waste my time mathhammering a 880 point unit of knights that are just going to be stuck in a tarpit the entire game. Its obviously a bad unit I dont have to mathhammer to prove that.

2) Yes, every army has. But every army has gotten at least 1-2 items that are very good. What do we get? Overpriced 1+ Save, The same >50 points weapons that are useless in every book, an average helm, and average talisman, a nerfed VHS, a useless bound spell ring, a useless banner, and an average banner which is only useful on cavalry.

3) No, the mortar sucks now. S2 wont kill anything near 100 points without major help from Lore of Shadow. Yes the cannon needed the slight nerf, but they made the Rocket battery bad, and BS-oriented shooting is just as bad as ever.

4) No, I love change. I love neutral change, I love positive change. I'm ok with a bit of negative change if it is needed. But when just about every good choice in an Armybook gets nerfed hard I'm hesitant to jump on the wagon and waste my money on an army that is just going to lose. And you are wrong. When a new book comes out, first the community decides on its power. Then, if it is strong, the idiots have already left and the smart ones continue. If it is weak, the idiots stay and the smart players go and play other armies. That is by your definition of "idiots." You seem to be very quick to throw insults.

I believe the idiots in question are the ones who don't change their list to suit the new book (or because they cannot see the good for the rant). Not people who change the army book because they cannot play it.

DukeRustfield wrote:
-There is no master engineer (i.e., a 65pt Hero character) in a Steamtank. There is an engineer commander. So you're not going to get the heroe's rules regardless of the stank's type.

What I meant was it could have been possible to sit an engineer next to a Stank and get the bonus

DukeRustfield wrote:
-You knew the stank was going to get a type as without one things float free from the BRB and other standarized rules and slowly get out of date. Rhinox cannons are charriots now. Mortis Engines are charriots. Everything is something, if they've released in 8th.

Yes, but in the Engineer's rules they could have just added "... or the Steam Tank ..."

DukeRustfield wrote:
-Halberdiers are Orc Boyz with +1 str (from halberd) instead of T and +1 I, no choppaz, no Animosity. Same cost. That's a pretty solid deal. Oh, and they can have detachments.

1) So instead of S3 (4 on first turn) T4, you get S4 T3. Not bad, but not good.
2) Ask any competitive Orc player (me included) basic Orc Boyz are one of the worst core choices in the book, and are 1 point too expensive.

DukeRustfield wrote:
-Greatswords are Black Orkz + and - here and there. But very comparable. And they can have detachments.

Once again, Black Orcs are one of the worse choices in the book. Greatswords are T3 too, and are S5 with GW and 1 attack rather than S5 with 2 attacks or S7 with 1 attack (-1 for further combats)

DukeRustfield wrote:
-Knightly Orders as core is pretty awesome. You can have your whole core have a native 1+ armor save and 6+ parry. That's pretty damn point denial. And a Priest or celestial can buff the ward.

This is true, but Cavalry cannot parry, so no ward.
Also, keep in mind that we are still in 8th edition, so cavalry sucks.

DukeRustfield wrote:
-Demigryph knights are baby mournfangs. They are probably a tad overcosted, but not as much as it seems since they get the 1+ save for free and better LD (which matters since they will be solo) and WS.

Spot on.

DukeRustfield wrote:
-Mortar was going to get a point increase. Everyone knew that.

Yes. But it was also nerfed into S2 uselessness.

DukeRustfield wrote:
-The celestials aren't that great, but they are dirt cheap.

Are you talking about the Derpcanum? In that case I do agree its one of the better choices.

DukeRustfield wrote:
-Generic Generals are better.

Generals Suck. Look at captain. Look at general. Same statline for way more points. Not to mention said statline sucks.

DukeRustfield wrote:
-Witch Hunters are one of the scariest things I've seen in a while. Ranged sniper KB (against 1 "witch"). That makes Teclis cry so bad you can hear it all the way in Cathay. And they cost as much as goblin heroes. Every Empire army should have like 3 of these. With ability to take copious war machines and KB snipe heroes, they can basically take out any enemy leaders other than bunkered MI.

Can't say I agree.

Hitting on 3+
-Long Range (or moved)
-Sniper
Therefore hitting on 5+
Then you KB on a 6+

So for 50 points, you get 1 shot (because after that shot you will immediately be charged and killed) that has a 6% (or less) chance to kill an enemy with ward saves allowed. Explain to me why Teclis cares?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I believe the idiots in question are the ones who don't change their list to suit the new book (or because they cannot see the good for the rant). Not people who change the army book because they cannot play it.

I agree. I have no issue with changing my list. I just can't see any good competitve options in this book.

That's not a WH can do. They are still viable units. But basically, no LoS and KB means you HAVE to do something about them.

They are low risk high reward. Teclis doesn't have a ward. And you could buy 9(!) WH for the cost of one Teclis and be absolutely sure you'd kill him and the army that was built around him would be really sucky. Even with just 3, he's crapping his robes and it costs you almost nothing.

Teclis will most likely just go ahead and Dwellers Bellow the 3-9 witch hunters.

And what about any other army, the ones that pretty much all have 4++ on their wizards?

Also thats just 150 points thrown away against Ogres.

In my last post I forgot to include the reroll to hit. So actually its ~9%.

zeekill wrote:Once again, Black Orcs are one of the worse choices in the book.
...
Also, keep in mind that we are still in 8th edition, so cavalry sucks.

Everything you say/complain about is now void to me.