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I play IG, so therefore it doesn't affect me much. But I never really bought stuff from GW anyway except for some independant characters, paint, and Battlefleet gothic stuff.

Same rage after every price increase. An endless cycle.

McNinja wrote:I'm not going to disagree (because I slightly agree), but I'd rather spend money on an enjoyable night with a friend or on a date rather than spend the money on a model, though that's just personal preference. I'm not sure what you mean by creepy person...

I'm glad my avatar can win arguments for me

How would you enjoy a steak a month or a year after having consumed it? My thoughts were something along the lines of constantly regurgitating it and eating it again.

imweasel wrote:

The Crusader wrote:No sir, You are the idiot. on average, a single American uses 600 gallons of petrol a year. Ethiopians use less than 40 gallons a year. Petrol is not a commodity, you don't NEED it. People have been getting around just fine for thousands of years without motorised transport. Just because it saves time and effort to use a car doesn't mean that it is the "be all and end all". At current consumption rate, we will run out of Petrol in less than 40 years.

40 Years.

Then it's back to Horses, Bikes and good ol' ground pounding.

Wow. Be careful throwing back out the 'idiot' word. I suppose if you want to live like an ethiopian, you can try to get by on 40 gallons of 'petrol' a year. I prefer to live a slightly higher and better standard of living.

And they have been saying, oh say for the last 40 years, that we are going to run out of 'petrol' in 40 years.

Riiiiiiiiiigggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhtttttttttttt. My POINT was that Ethiopians still survive perfectly fine without the other 560 gallons of Petrol and other oil products. Oil and its derivatives have become a necessity (Thats the word I meant, not commodity) people have allowed it to. Reference my previous point, people had been getting around just fine long before cars.

And in reference to you're last statment, yes they were really that knowledgable about oil when they were bringing it up and burning some of it off. No. Just, no.

And when the oil runs out, I dare say society will take a massive step back on the transport front and "work" will probably all;ow time for the extra commute.

Sasori wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:I was wrong actually - 50% increase in cost, forgot purifiers were 24 compared to GH at 16,for essentially the same number of attakcs.

Non-optional upgrades *always* cost less than optional ones. Because you dont have any choice in the matter.

The same naive comparison as you did shows that banshees should also cost about 30ppm. They dont, for the good reason that they arent worth that much. Purifiers are appropriately costed.

Grey Hunters are also considered, undercosted by anywhere, from 1-3 ppm. using them as your standard for cost comparison, is inherently flawed. Purifiers get a lot more than 16 points worth of Upgrades, and special rules compared to GH. You seem to be focusing on just number attacks, when it is so much more than that.

Perhaps my comparison wasn't the best example, but I don't see how you can say that purifiers are properly costed at all. They should be abut 1-2 PPM more than they are right now. Their cost is even worse when considered from an internal balance standpoint.

Purifiers are not appropriately costed.

No, it is appropriate - for that 50% more you lose CA, AS and the rediculous banner of cheese. You also lose any abilty to take melta, THE way to kill vehicles (amazing how people forget that weapon choice also factors cost) and if you take any upgrade ranged weapon you lose the FW you keep carping on about. I'm not just going on about attacks, I was pointing out that given YOU mentioned the additional attack, I'd counter with the fact that GH also get A2 "base", essentially, due to 2CCW. I also assume you meant "8 points" of upgrade, not 16. They cost 50% more, not 100%

Internal balance? What, where they lose out HEAVILY to the more superior option (for troops) of henchmen? THe competitive lists (UK meta, of reasonable points values) have them at most in elites - never troops. Theyre not worth the points, because you pay 50% more to get the same basic function - scoring. They are seriously fragile, like any other PA marine, yet cost more.

Which was the point. You HAVE to pay for the upgrade, even when you dont want it. Which is why it is "cheaper" than your naive comparisons (well, not just yours - most argumetns about this are that naive, as they always compare optional prices for equipment to non-optional prices for units) would suggest it should be - because you are always paying that extra cost, even when it does nothing. A Purifier being shot at dies as easily as any GH, yet costs 50% more. A purifier when being hit in CC, dies as easily as any PA marine, yet costs 50% more.

Purifiers, for their role in the codex, are very definitely appropriately costed. Stop focusing entirely on the positive (mentioning nothing about what is lost), and naive comparisons that result in the OP unit of all time, banshees, "costing" 30ppm, and you may have an argument that holds up.

As i said before, it is all of us to blame for the predicament were in, we ALLOWED the greedy corrupt people to manage our finances and we ALLOW GW to raise there prices to obscene levels year after year, if we trully wanted it to stop we would stop it

No, you wont. You have no power in this.

Internet boycotts have a near 100% failure rate, because its usually driven by a lot of hyperbole.

GW arent holding a gun to your head. They are not mandating that you play their game, nor are they mandating you play the game with their minis - unless you play in one of their tournaments, as is their right as TOs

If you want to boycott, then do it - but truly do it. Not only dont purchase new items, but sell waht you have and stop. playing. the. game. Otherwise its not a boycott, its play acting and will be treated about as seriously.

Joey wrote:

thevirus wrote:This topic again. 10 years ago I had 5 40k armies and mow I have only 3 armies now. With this price increase I migh cut down to two armies.

Sums up the mainstream anti-GW argument right there.
Unless you're being sarcastic, in which case, bravo

Ditto - needed to loose my orkz, now my necrons aren't going to be updated. The only useful things I have are 36 warriors and some scarabs. =( My failcast lord hasn't been replaced either.

Having more fun painitng D&D minatures for board games.

You don't have to stop playing - why waste possibly thousands of pounds worth of toys and however many hours you have invested?

Same thing for selling all your stuff. I got rid of quite a number of armies that I decided I was not going to use/complete/etc because I was no longer buying from GW - I kept one which is complete and almost fully painted, and one which I had all the bits for to be a project army. Just because I'm no longer putting my pay into GW doesn't mean I have to get rid of what I already own.

Granted, I play very little anyway, but you don't have to quit playing when you decide that you don't want to continue buying new stuff from GW (for whatever reason) either. Just like you don't have to smash your iphone when the next iphone-prettymuchwhatyoualreadyhavewithabiggernumberafterthename comes out because you are enraged at apple's business model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, you wont. You have no power in this.

Internet boycotts have a near 100% failure rate, because its usually driven by a lot of hyperbole.

GW arent holding a gun to your head. They are not mandating that you play their game, nor are they mandating you play the game with their minis - unless you play in one of their tournaments, as is their right as TOs

If you want to boycott, then do it - but truly do it. Not only dont purchase new items, but sell waht you have and stop. playing. the. game. Otherwise its not a boycott, its play acting and will be treated about as seriously.

No offence Nos, but this is totally wrong, if people get behind a cause then nothing can stop it, now if you mean "will people get behind the cause" then your right, things only happen because we the people allow it, through silence and inaction, history shows us that with all things there is a tipping point, i dont believe GW hs hit that yet.. "yet" is the key word here

So the whole thing is totally wrong?

No, it is an accurate summation of the last 250+ "boycott GW!!!!" threads. Not a single bit of actual action has resulted.

My point stands - stop playing the game, sell everything, and then you have a boycott. Until YOU take a step, nothing will happen. IF nothing then happens, well the boycott didnt exactly have much support, did it?

These threads are just incredibly silly wastes of forum space.

Ailaros wrote:As for Australia, that one should be obvious as well. You have a much smaller market (not as many 40k players down under as in the US or Europe), that is much, much farther away. These two combined make distribution more expensive. Then add to this the fact that Australia has a relatively slightly weaker currency than the UK at the moment (1 USD gets you 0.63GBP, but 1AUD only gets you .62), and britain needs to charge extra just to stay even. It's a problem that all exporters face.

Ummmm...given the small and insignificant difference in the USD and AUD exchange rates with the GBP there should be pretty much *zero* price difference. Also considering that the UK and Australia have long had strong trade ties with each other and not a single other market in Australia that relies heavily on UK imports has the same 50-100% price mark up on its products compared to other parts of the world again this price difference is insane. I could perhaps see maybe a 10% markup if you really need to cover international shipping costs, but 50-100% compared to the US market? That is blatant robbery. GW has taken a pricing point from a time when the AUD to GBP exchange rate was excessively terrible and made it into business as usual. If they really cared about their Australian customers they would just let them order from GW UK or sell their products locally at standard exchange rates, but instead they continue to gouge the market claiming that "Austrailia is so far away" as an excuse. It is all BS. Given the strength of trade ties between the UK and Australia they can't even say it is because of Australian tariffs since Australia is not trying to keep people from buying British imports as is seen in other foreign markets.

It really is a wonder that there is *any* market at all for GW products in Australia given their price gouging tactics...

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:Plus, you get the enjoyment of the hobby, and then you get the enjoyment of game after game. 40k isn't actually very poor of a value, despite its cost. Just be glad that GW isn't moving over to a DRM or microtransaction business model like online distributors are able to do. The day that GW bans using your own miniatures and you're required to rent your minis from the store every time you want to play a game is the day I stop playing 40k...

Not sure why you would need to stop playing. Just don't play in a GW store any more...most of us have enough armies and minis that if GW closed or went completely insane as a company tomorrow we'd be able to continue playing the game for as long as we'd want to do so. Probably would even be able to start new armies thanks to people leaving the hobby and selling stuff on ebay and other such places.

In fact making that decision today, if you have a regular group you play mini games with, removes GW from the equation completely. No new codex creep or silly rules changes to worry about. No new books that invalidate parts of your army. Peace.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Crusader wrote:
No sir, You are the idiot. on average, a single American uses 600 gallons of petrol a year. Ethiopians use less than 40 gallons a year. Petrol is not a commodity, you don't NEED it. People have been getting around just fine for thousands of years without motorised transport. Just because it saves time and effort to use a car doesn't mean that it is the "be all and end all". At current consumption rate, we will run out of Petrol in less than 40 years.

Actually while oil isn't a necessity of life it *IS* sold on the world commodity markets which is why its price is so crazy flexible. You should be aware of that *before* calling someone an idiot.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverMK2 wrote:I'd like to point out to the uneducated how much petrol (rather than oil) is taxed, and the taxation is continually increasing (certainly in the UK) above and beyond the rise in the price of oil and inflation, while oil is not being taxed in the same way...

If you want to look at the increase of the plastics, compare directly with crude.

Yes it is taxed heavily, but the weekly price fluctuations in the US that can see the price rise by $0.10 in a day and then again the next is most definitely *not* due to taxation, though. Taxes do not appear and change that quickly in ANY bueaucracy. Gas prices would be much lower around the world if the taxes were not so high for sure.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Ugh, well I guess I'll be scouring ebay more often than I do already... GW prices in Canada are Squig- , our dollar's basically at parity with the American dollar, yet we pay considerably more for new models...

And before you say it, I know, complain to the Australians.

Actually the Canadian dollar is worth more than the USD right now, but Canadian prices are based on a much poorer comparison years ago which just because GW standard, just like in Australia.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:These threads are just incredibly silly wastes of forum space.

And posts like yours certainly don't add to the wasted space...

The point is if they choose to boycott then that is their choice to do so. All they need to do is say they don't like the prices anymore and refuse to pay them anymore and you have an instant boycott. At this point I am the only person in my regular mini gaming group that still spends money on GW minis. I also am the only one without young children right now as well. I could decide to boycott GW tomorrow and stop spending any cash on them and still continue my hobby with what I have and my current group without any of us spending money for the next 40 years if I really wanted to. I'd *still* be boycotting and not buying any new GW product. After all this is about price increases, not about child slave labor. If GW was using child slave labor and that was the cause of the boycott then keeping and still using all of your GW products that were made by that child slave labor would be hypocritical. If it is all about not giving any more money to GW then selling off one's collection is hardly necessary.

Skriker

the thing about not having as much population always seems like a good argument, but then if you look at how many stores there are and distributors it is only a fraction of what you will find in more populated countries. I hear about FLAGS on dakka alot...but you know that doesn't exist down under, there is 1 store near me that has the facilities to lets us play and also encourages it...but its always totally empty so you never get a game unless you call people and arrange one. There is one group that meets regularly, but as far as the greater area of melbourn is concerned....they are totaly unreachable from 70% of melbourne unless your willing to travel like a donkey

so your only option is a GW store for gameing or buying (since all online shipping has been stopped to aus) yes there is ebay which is what alot of people do but still, the market here for GW has almost no competition in terms of store fronts.

This means that people will pay and play through/at GW (unless you have a small home garage group). I can tell you that i have tried to convince friends to play and as soon as they see how much something costs...they instantly turn around nd say - are you insane i'm not gonna sink so much money into that. If the prices were on par with the UK and i'm saying this because of the comparison above as to UK and US export markets and i'm taking the more expensive option of the british pound for conversion rates, it would still be cheap enough for people to contemplate spending the money.

So i know of 3 additional customers they could have had from myself alone, and i can tell you that there is still a large and active community out there, and i think if the prices were more standardized then they would have at least been able to expand their customer base in australia 3 fold if i'm to be used as an average.

Furthermore if pricers were like those of the UK and/or US i would also probably have multiple armys, as such i limit myself in order to keep thing affordable (another choice behind my daemons since i can play 40k and fantasy with them). So lets look at it like this...

prices are like UK standard, okay you have a good chance of multiplying your customer base by 3, also people will be more likely to have multiple armys lets say 3-4 and possibly of larger sizes too.
so GW could potentially sell 6x as much as they do now if they are simple selling at UK price here in OZ...somehow that sounds like a really viable business move? don't you think? surely enough to cover any export costs, distance shipping costs, conversion costs and what have you.

price increases are not so bad...if your on a level playing feild, but when you hear about price increase on top of already hiked starting costs...it really gets you depressed sometimes, it really looks like GW is simply price gouging the australian market because they can or long out dated policy.

a 12% price increase on some stock isn't so bad when your going from $55 for a tank to $65...but when you go from $90 to $110 for the same thing simply because you live somewhere else it's just depressing. The thing is i would like to give GW my money, as i think they have a great product, but i'm also not stupid enough to give them my left leg just because.

holy crap that was one hell of a rant...i need to stay off the tonic water i think...

nosferatu1001 wrote:So the whole thing is totally wrong?

No, it is an accurate summation of the last 250+ "boycott GW!!!!" threads. Not a single bit of actual action has resulted.

My point stands - stop playing the game, sell everything, and then you have a boycott. Until YOU take a step, nothing will happen. IF nothing then happens, well the boycott didnt exactly have much support, did it?

These threads are just incredibly silly wastes of forum space.

i take it you only glanced at what i wrote, i told you the part i agree with, and yes all the previous threads like this failed, but only because the general public allowed these pices to continue, if the majority of people actually did something about it (even wrote letters) then something may happen, but as it stands we as a community are too fractured and apathetic to actually bother, this and this alone is how GW (and other company's) get away with huge price hikes and poor service.

Formosa wrote: if people get behind a cause then nothing can stop it

Ah, the naive idealism of youth.

Turns out in the real world, anything that people get behind, and is successful, is because of money, politics, military power and/or logistics. That people have a common sentiment is just window dressing - the first thing you see, the last thing that matters.

Which is, of course, why these impassioned pleas against high prices almost always fail in general, and why they always fail on the internet, period. Unless you're willing to spend the time, effort, and money to create an "Anti-GW Ltd.", your organization, and thus your ideals, are going to have little effect.

If there's one thing that GW has been really, really good at over the past 25 years, it's been turning a deaf ear to whiners.

Ailaros wrote:

Formosa wrote: if people get behind a cause then nothing can stop it

Turns out in the real world, anything that people get behind, and is successful, is because of money, politics, military power and/or logistics. That people have a common sentiment is just window dressing - the first thing you see, the last thing that matters.

This. Truer words have not been spoken.
You simply can't get anywhere without financial backing and political support, and you can see it going on in the world right now. Greece would be a prime example. I don't know why but it just really resonates with me, and now i think i understand why i laugh when people protested at Uni about this or that or mobilized talks to change this nd that. Then they all graduated nd calmed down and nothing changed...although the library got a face lift nd looks awesome now despite the don't spend money crap i herd about...too bad i finished uni before the facelift lol

I still enjoy a good rant and vent tho, i'm hypocritical lol so sue me. i suppose if you have read hundreds of these threads you just have had enough, but they can be a healthy mind ejaculate ... like protesting lol.

Formosa - so, have you done it yet? Sold off, stopped playing and buying?

You're bemoaning others lack of action, while so far demonstrating none of your own

nosferatu1001 wrote:Formosa - so, have you done it yet? Sold off, stopped playing and buying?

Also, what armies do you play? I might be up for buying some of it off you, if the prices aren't too high, anyway.

Exactly - a new edition / codex is a great time to pick up cheap models, usually - all the rage quitters

Wait, this is genius. Dakka should set up something (perhaps nested within the greater context of the swap shop) so that when people ragequit 40k they have an easy way to sell or trade away their whole army(ies) set-piece.

You'd have to make it a rule that the thread title would say if you used super glue or plastic glue, though. No nasty surprises.

Good call on the last bit regardless of the first part. I'm never buying something plastic glued together again.

Ailaros wrote:

Formosa wrote: if people get behind a cause then nothing can stop it

Ah, the naive idealism of youth.

Turns out in the real world, anything that people get behind, and is successful, is because of money, politics, military power and/or logistics. That people have a common sentiment is just window dressing - the first thing you see, the last thing that matters.

Which is, of course, why these impassioned pleas against high prices almost always fail in general, and why they always fail on the internet, period. Unless you're willing to spend the time, effort, and money to create an "Anti-GW Ltd.", your organization, and thus your ideals, are going to have little effect.

If there's one thing that GW has been really, really good at over the past 25 years, it's been turning a deaf ear to whiners.

Im 28, and ex army, im not naive, infact the ultimate naivity is believing that you dont have any power and have to just sit there and take it, that line of thinking has led to some horrific things in history, we can always make a diference if we try. I have seen first hand what a great many people can do when they choose to, as to "you need money etc" how much money did the goverment give to the london rioters? how much money did the corps give?
A mass of people decided (peace meal at first, then in greater numbers) to riot and loot, the goverment could only sit back and watch as it burned itself out.

As to quiting, never aid i would, i defending the OP's point of view, he is correct, something does need doing, but as i said before, we as a comunity are too apathetic or simply dont care.

Basic economics.

GW will set the prices for their goods at whatever point the market can carry.

Formosa wrote:
Im 28, and ex army, im not naive, infact the ultimate naivity is believing that you dont have any power and have to just sit there and take it, that line of thinking has led to some horrific things in history, we can always make a diference if we try. I have seen first hand what a great many people can do when they choose to, as to "you need money etc" how much money did the goverment give to the london rioters? how much money did the corps give?
A mass of people decided (peace meal at first, then in greater numbers) to riot and loot, the goverment could only sit back and watch as it burned itself out.

As to quiting, never aid i would, i defending the OP's point of view, he is correct, something does need doing, but as i said before, we as a comunity are too apathetic or simply dont care.

It is indeed naive. You DON'T have any power. None. Zero. Nada. You plus thousands of other people? Maybe. Probably not. Realistically, GW would probably just go out of business before they would change their business practices. Even if you were going to have have any hope at change, I'd think the constant complaining, online petitions, and various other sabre-rattling that's been done over the years would have had some impact.

The problem is that they are a luxury good. You are complaining because your entertainment isn't coming cheaply enough. It's very hard for people to seriously get behind that kind of a cause.

This isn't about people angry because their overall quality of life keeps getting shittier while they're constantly reading about those on top feasting on their dreams, or anything poetic like that.

The vast majority of wargamers will simply buy less or even drop the hobby. It won't force change. At the end of the day there are enough other relatively cheap diversions out there that escapism is still easily attainable even if not though this. All in all, raging against GW is a drop in the bucket compared with all the things out there people probably should be raging about, and don't.


I'll help you though. I'll give you the direct secret to fixing GW's pricing scheme. Here we go:

Market cap on GWS.L is 177.4M GBP. That means that at current valuation of stock, about half the shares of GWS out there are worth about 88.7M. The GW earnings report shows 123.1M GBP as last year's revenue. So all you have to do in convince every customer of GW from last year to spend just over 72% of their wargaming budget to give you money to buy GWS instead, and then you have majority vote in the company. This is obviously not incredibly accurate, as the price on stock will skyrocket when you begin buying up that much of it, but then again, when GW sees a 72% drop in profit, I bet the stock will tank also, so maybe it'd balance out.

Beyond doing that, your tears will have little to do with fixing the company, and it seems like there's enough people out there who enjoy playing it in spite of the cost such that you'll not see much help.

Formosa wrote:Im 28, and ex army, im not naive, infact the ultimate naivity is believing that you dont have any power and have to just sit there and take it, that line of thinking has led to some horrific things in history, we can always make a diference if we try. I have seen first hand what a great many people can do when they choose to, as to "you need money etc" how much money did the goverment give to the london rioters? how much money did the corps give?
A mass of people decided (peace meal at first, then in greater numbers) to riot and loot, the goverment could only sit back and watch as it burned itself out.

As to quiting, never aid i would, i defending the OP's point of view, he is correct, something does need doing, but as i said before, we as a comunity are too apathetic or simply dont care.

Have you seen any information about the Occupy movement in the US? A perfect example of how a lot of people can get together, voice their outrage and complain and nothing changes because all they do is voice their outrage and complain. They never did anything beyond that. Never turn it into a political movement to give it any clout. Never came up with any options or plans beyond the banks need to be held accountable. It is all well and good, but if you don't offer a solution to fix the problem you see then you aren't trying to fix anything you want to complain about it and have someone else fix it.

As for rioting...not many governments would just sit back and watch it burn out. That would be totally based on where it happened. When there are riots in relatively poor and/or minority filled parts of cities that don't spill out then they certainly sit back and watch. If they roll into a different neighborhood the tear gas, water cannon and rubber bullets come out to keep the rioters out of the important parts of the city, which is exactly what happened in London. . If they want to over throw the government that is when the real bullets come out.

In the end what did those rioters in London accomplish? What has changed based on their rioting? A whole lot of nothing of any worth. Therefore they didn't have any power, despite the fact that they destroyed businesses that were supporting their own communities. Talk about shooting oneself in the foot. Eventually they will complain when those businesses don't come back because the owners have no interest in serving a community that is going to turn on them like that. So they rioted, the government kept them boxed in and what was the ultimate end result: Their own lifestyles take a hit because of lost services, and business support. Yeah lots of power there. Not...

The real naivety is believing that you can make all the difference by yourself. Gahndi was one such individual. He could go on a hunger strike and end violence between hindus and muslins throughout India. The thing is, though, that people have to care about what you say. We have the power to change our own lives and the lives of other individuals, but to enact broad change requires money in broad amounts as well to get that message out and bring it to a point where it matters to those in charge to make them want to enact change.

Skriker

you all seem to be missing the point, i KNOW one person cannot make a diference... wait can they not?

here are some examples of a single person making a diference the world we live in

Hitler
Stalin
Gearge washington
Martin luther king
Willian shakespeare
Abraham lincoln

Imagine if these people thought the way the massive majority of the world does... well some evil things wouldnt have happened... and some evil things would have continued.
1 person can make a diference, be it big or small, everything must start somewhere.

I truelly feel sorry for anyone who lacks the self worth the think they can never make a diference in the world, even something as simple as having children can change the world in ways none of us can ever imagine, call me naive... call me disney whatever, at least i still have hope for the world, despite the horrible things i have seen (anyone else in the forces knows what i mean), and yes i believe that a single person can make a diference, because it has

No, it is appropriate - for that 50% more you lose CA, AS and the rediculous banner of cheese. You also lose any abilty to take melta, THE way to kill vehicles (amazing how people forget that weapon choice also factors cost) and if you take any upgrade ranged weapon you lose the FW you keep carping on about. I'm not just going on about attacks, I was pointing out that given YOU mentioned the additional attack, I'd counter with the fact that GH also get A2 "base", essentially, due to 2CCW. I also assume you meant "8 points" of upgrade, not 16. They cost 50% more, not 100%

Yes, I meant 8 points. Do I need to list every single special rule, and wargear choice, they gain, over GH? Why are you talking just about what they loose, instead of gain? Purifiers don't gain the ability to take Melta, but they can take Psycannons instead. While Psycannons may not be as good as killing Vehicles they come close, and have the luxary of being longer ranged as well as being able to mow down infantry. They also have anywhere from double, to quadruple the shots. You can also take two per 5 man squad which you can't do with Melta for GHs, unless you take 10 GH, or take a Wolfguard.

Internal balance? What, where they lose out HEAVILY to the more superior option (for troops) of henchmen? THe competitive lists (UK meta, of reasonable points values) have them at most in elites - never troops. Theyre not worth the points, because you pay 50% more to get the same basic function - scoring. They are seriously fragile, like any other PA marine, yet cost more.

In the US, A lot of top GK lists have been Purifier spam, as well, as Henchmen spam. This comes down to the cheap upgrades you get for Purifiers, as well as they're additional utility over Strike Squads. Once again, you are just focusing on survivability.

Which was the point. You HAVE to pay for the upgrade, even when you dont want it. Which is why it is "cheaper" than your naive comparisons (well, not just yours - most argumetns about this are that naive, as they always compare optional prices for equipment to non-optional prices for units) would suggest it should be - because you are always paying that extra cost, even when it does nothing. A Purifier being shot at dies as easily as any GH, yet costs 50% more. A purifier when being hit in CC, dies as easily as any PA marine, yet costs 50% more.

You are oversimplifying this, to an extreme. Yes, they die to Power weapons, and AP3 like other marines. However, there is a lot more to it, than that.
You're not paying for survivability. If you want something doesn't die like a regular marine, you purchase Terminators. You are paying for the massive increase in combat power, Utility against any type of of unit, and cheap upgrades with Purifiers. I would say they are over 50% more effective at killing models than a regular Grey Hunter, as well has having the ability to fight and win against units, that would tear Grey Hunters apart.

Purifiers, for their role in the codex, are very definitely appropriately costed. Stop focusing entirely on the positive (mentioning nothing about what is lost), and naive comparisons that result in the OP unit of all time, banshees, "costing" 30ppm, and you may have an argument that holds up.

You're the one trying to leave out the positives. In your first paragraph here, you mention that they loose AS/CA but you don't bother to mention what they gain. I made one comparison, that I already admitted to not being the best, I don't know why you are continuing to focus on that.

So, what argument have you put forth? That because they don't gain any type of survivability, so therefore are appropriately costed? Purifiers, for that 50% increase in points, gain better shooting, combat prowess, and the ability to fight every type of unit in the game, and come out on top. I can't think off the top of my head, a unit that can Take on a squad of Ork Boyz, Monstrous Creatures, and Elite/Regular Infantry, as well has having potent shooting. Purifiers can do all of that, and come out on top.

There is a reason you see them in almost every competitive Grey Knight list, be it Henchmen spam, or Purifier spam. That's because they can do everything, and do it for cheap. They are undercosted.

Hitler - Opportunistically seized power of a country that was in economic shambles by promising and delivering a viable scapegoat
Stalin - Part of a revolutionary group that dethroned the primary political power in Russia. Used thugs to eliminate his opposition.
George Washington - Became first president prominently due to his successes against the British for fething independence
Martin luther king - Helped drive black rights so that they would be on the road to stop getting treated like gak.
Willian shakespeare - Popular playwright and author who some speculate didn't actually write all of the works that are attributed to him.
Abraham lincoln - President during civil war, famous for issuing the proclamation to free slaves, motives behind this are possibly not altogether altruistic.

These were all famous men who rallied people to cause great world-changing things, for good or bad, it's true. But now...

Formosa - Led the campaign to attempt to cheapen the prices of plastic miniatures through causing their manufacturer financial distress.

Now lets compare the goals:

Hitler - Control, Financial/Political power of the state
Stalin - Control, Financial/Political power of the state
Washington - Leadership of a free and sovereign state
Martin Luther King - Human Rights
Shakespeare - Uh... patronage, I guess? I'm kind of surprised he's even in the list.
Lincoln - Maybe 50% freeing a people who deserved it, 50% looking to destabilize the economy of the rebel states.

Formosa - Reducing the price of plastic army men used as a source of entertainment.

This is what I was trying to say earlier. People rally behind the other people you list because they're doing "great" (as it epic-scale things; I'm not calling Hitler a good guy here) things. It's not so much that we lack the self-worth to make a difference in the world; it's that our world's are not so small that GW's pricing scheme is that important to us.

daedalus wrote:Hitler - Opportunistically seized power of a country that was in economic shambles by promising and delivering a viable scapegoat
Stalin - Part of a revolutionary group that dethroned the primary political power in Russia. Used thugs to eliminate his opposition.
George Washington - Became first president prominently due to his successes against the British for fething independence
Martin luther king - Helped drive black rights so that they would be on the road to stop getting treated like gak.
Willian shakespeare - Popular playwright and author who some speculate didn't actually write all of the works that are attributed to him.
Abraham lincoln - President during civil war, famous for issuing the proclamation to free slaves, motives behind this are possibly not altogether altruistic.

These were all famous men who rallied people to cause great world-changing things, for good or bad, it's true. But now...

Formosa - Led the campaign to attempt to cheapen the prices of plastic miniatures through causing their manufacturer financial distress.

Now lets compare the goals:

Hitler - Control, Financial/Political power of the state
Stalin - Control, Financial/Political power of the state
Washington - Leadership of a free and sovereign state
Martin Luther King - Human Rights
Shakespeare - Uh... patronage, I guess? I'm kind of surprised he's even in the list.
Lincoln - Maybe 50% freeing a people who deserved it, 50% looking to destabilize the economy of the rebel states.

Formosa - Reducing the price of plastic army men used as a source of entertainment.

This is what I was trying to say earlier. People rally behind the other people you list because they're doing "great" (as it epic-scale things; I'm not calling Hitler a good guy here) things. It's not so much that we lack the self-worth to make a difference in the world; it's that our world's are not so small that GW's pricing scheme is that important to us.

Stop trying to ridicule Formosa because you just come across like an donkey-cave. We all know what he is trying to say and I agree with him. Saying we have no power at all is the stupidest thing I have read all day, second to the suggestion to buy GW out to fix the issue. If GWs pricing scheme ISN'T that important why are you here White-knighting it?

Sasori - and again only mentioning the gains, and none of the losses

Done going so far off topic, when people cant even argue adequately about the off topic subject.

Finally - I didnt mention every thing they gain, because you had adequately covered that. Repetition is fairly pointless. I was just trying to point out that purifiers DO lose something, when the way you speak they are the best thing since sliced bread

Your initial costing talked about optional wargear costs, as if it makes any sense to compare to mandatory wargear

24 points, and dies like any other marine. If you cannot kill marines, you are doing something wrong

Categorically purifiers are the right points for what they bring to the table. You see them in henchmen lists because what are you going to bring in elites otherwise? Crap assasins?

Formosa - you agree with the OP, but dont actually do anything about it? Then youre simply a hypocrite - put your money where your mouth is, and actually boycott. Dont talk about it, do it. And when you do, let us know. You may be able to build a popular movement around making a luxury item cheaper. I doubt it.

Asuryan - pointing out the hyperbole of others isn't "white knighting", unless you live in an entirely polarised, Fox "news", world