Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is a discussion forum about fluff. Please take the roleplay somewhere else. All this talk about "Wardian Heresy" and the "infamous and hated Khornate Knights" doesn't belong here.

Tadashi wrote:Psychic power.

Uh, no. It's a series of hexagrammic wards, and other 'sorcerous' protections built into the Grey Knights armour that supplements their psychic defence.

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Psychic power.

Uh, no. It's a series of hexagrammic wards, and other 'sorcerous' protections built into the Grey Knights armour that supplements their psychic defence.

That's not sorcery...what's sorcerous is how some of them (with a certain Champion coming to mind) make use of daemon weapons. Not to mention using blood magic.

Tadashi wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Psychic power.

Uh, no. It's a series of hexagrammic wards, and other 'sorcerous' protections built into the Grey Knights armour that supplements their psychic defence.

That's not sorcery.

That's exactly sorcery.

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Psychic power.

Uh, no. It's a series of hexagrammic wards, and other 'sorcerous' protections built into the Grey Knights armour that supplements their psychic defence.

That's not sorcery.

That's exactly sorcery.

No, it's not. It doesn't invoke a third party, does it?

Preview of the next few pages, hope this speedens things up :

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Kroothawk wrote:Preview of the next few pages, hope this speedens things up :

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

LMAO.

Just no to the quote pyramids...

Sadly it's probably true...

n0t_u wrote:Just no to the quote pyramids...

Sadly it's probably true...

What's true?

That prediction.

Is drawing "hexagramic wards" now science? If so, it is only because daemons are a real phenomenon in 40k. In that case, summoning daemons with blood rituals is also a science.

Manchu wrote:Is drawing "hexagramic wards" now science? If so, it is only because daemons are a real phenomenon in 40k. In that case, summoning daemons with blood rituals is also a science.

Regardless, its still forbidden. If the XV Legion was condemned for it, then so should the Khornate Knights.

Which once again comes back to Khornes hatred for Psykers and really the only thing I can see them being called as such is because they covered themselves in SoB blood.

The train of thought to it is about as dumb as the bloodtide story itself.

n0t_u wrote:Which once again comes back to Khornes hatred for Psykers and really the only thing I can see them being called as such is because they covered themselves in SoB blood.

The train of thought to it is about as dumb as the bloodtide story itself.

Pretty much. But seeing as the story behind the Khornate Knights is insane and senseless, the title fits.

Manchu wrote:This is a discussion forum about fluff. Please take the roleplay somewhere else. All this talk about "Wardian Heresy" and the "infamous and hated Khornate Knights" doesn't belong here.

Thank you so much for posting this, and shame on a certain someone for ignoring it.

I dont really care fluffwise if sisters can or cannot fall to chaos. I think its certainly possible, considering groups with far superior mental fortitude like marines and eldar have been known to do so. The only group that might be totally immune are the grey knights. With that said, I think making a sisters of chaos army you have to walk a fine line, just like female marines. If you paint them up in chaos type colors than whatever. If you go out of your way to sculpt extra chaos-y things that have sexual connotations, just like green-stuffing tits on all your marines, it brings into question your sexual frustrations and how you deal with them.

Also, neckbeards will hate you forever for this. I painted my grey knights up in a pink alpha legion/slaanesh scheme. Most people understand its a joke, but be prepared for the grognards to waddle over, call you a heretic, tell you how your army is gay, bitch about matt ward, and tell you that your army is not fluffy. Fortunately, if you have any amount of testicular fortitude and self respect, you understand these kind of people dont qualify as humans, and should be ignored.

Tadashi wrote:If the XV Legion was condemned for it, then so should the Khornate Knights.

Once again:

(1) A lot has changed since the HH and the GK were founded as "above the rules" anyway.

(2) If the GK are indeed sorcerers, calling them Khorne worshipers is idiotic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eidolon wrote:I dont really care fluffwise if sisters can or cannot fall to chaos.

I think it's very important that they can fall but doon't. The coolest thing about Sisters is that they prove one doesn't have to go through the whole rigmarole of Astartes body-building to be a tough-as-nails, front-line, xenos-murdering, heretic-purging human badass. Saying Sisters can't fall to Chaos is like saying they can't die if shot with a bolter. Saying they don't fall to Chaos, however, is not the same thing as saying they should always win every battle they fight in.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:If the XV Legion was condemned for it, then so should the Khornate Knights.

Once again:

(1) A lot has changed since the HH and the GK were founded as "above the rules" anyway.

No, they are not. Only the Emperor is 'above the rules'. Grey Knights are still Astartes, and as such are under the Adeptus Terra. Therefore, they are still bound by the strictures against sorcery embodied within the amended Edicts of Nikaea.

(2) If the GK are indeed sorcerers, calling them Khorne worshipers is idiotic.

So is the fluff behind the Khornate Knights.

Thus the cycle continues indefinitely?

Tadashi wrote:Grey Knights are still Astartes, and as such are under the Adeptus Terra. Therefore, they are still bound by the strictures against sorcery embodied within the amended Edicts of Nikaea.

We don't know when they started to use radical methods but we do know that Malcador gave them an expansive remit that goes well beyond the authority of rank-and-file Space Marines.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:If the GK are indeed sorcerers, calling them Khorne worshipers is idiotic.

So is the fluff behind the Khornate Knights.

That is not a counter-argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

n0t_u wrote:Thus the cycle continues indefinitely?

This is the internet, after all.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Grey Knights are still Astartes, and as such are under the Adeptus Terra. Therefore, they are still bound by the strictures against sorcery embodied within the amended Edicts of Nikaea.

We don't know when they started to use radical methods but we do know that Malcador gave them an expansive remit that goes well beyond the authority of rank-and-file Space Marines.

Thanks for proving my point. Khornate Knights are sorcerers and kinslayers worse than the Traitor Legions. They deserve to have Russ and the VI Legion loosed on them more than Magnus and the XV Legion ever did.

Let me guess, you like to say Fineco$t as well? Ugh.

Eidolon wrote:far superior mental fortitude like marines

Just to expand on this, looking at a large number of Marine Chapters, I see a huge amount of pride and arrogance. At time even outright hatred of Astartes versus "inferior humans". The Sisters on the other hand focus heavily on dedication and humility, which in combination with their seemingly unlimited trust in the Emperor's divine infallibility indeed may act like a shield against the influence of the Ruinous Powers. And then there is the difference of education, one being children born of normal people raised from infancy in an ecclesiarchal school, the other being feral barbarians recruited at childhood and subjected to a brutal treatment of genochemical alteration and crude hypno-indoctrination.

No, I am not convinced that Astartes have a "superior mental fortitude". Rather, I think their susceptibility to the lure of Chaos is quite reasonable. They are in essence a bunch of Conans in a constant battle between their self-defined vision of honour and the nagging feeling of not being treated like many of them think they should, especially after Emps told them to shut up about worshipping him.

In a way, the same can be said about Eldar. I am not sure about them truly being that vulnerable these days (I'd have to ask someone with more knowledge of Eldar flufff), but considering how Slaanesh was birthed, it seems to me that the Eldar of old were quite, shall we say, "Roman" about their feasts and monumental parties? High civilization, decadence and corruption are not mutually exclusive. Quite the contrary, one might say. The "modern" Eldar seem to have learned from this and live a much more stable and solemn existence, arguably more resistant.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:If the XV Legion was condemned for it, then so should the Khornate Knights.

Once again:

(1) A lot has changed since the HH and the GK were founded as "above the rules" anyway.

No, they are not. Only the Emperor is 'above the rules'. Grey Knights are still Astartes, and as such are under the Adeptus Terra. Therefore, they are still bound by the strictures against sorcery embodied within the amended Edicts of Nikaea.

Their fething moon is chained to the warp by insane sorceries created by Malcador, the emperors own right hand. I'm pretty sure they are allowed to use sorcery. I understand you have a hate boner for Matt Ward, but lets not get ridiculous here. The emperor banned sorcery for MARINE LEGIONS, which the grey knights never were a part of. They were created to specifically fight chaos, and given a free ride to pretty much use every tool available to do it. He still let the astropaths use sorcery if you read 'The Outcast Dead'. Seriously man, the constant 'herp derp ward ruins everything beautiful' just destroys threads, take this garbage to a site like 40konline where it would be more welcomed.

(2) If the GK are indeed sorcerers, calling them Khorne worshipers is idiotic.

So is the fluff behind the Khornate Knights.

Theres nothing Khornate about just spilling blood. Are surgeons khornate? Is any marine with a chainsword khornate?

How does what I posted prove your point?

Your point is that the GK are traitors against the Imperium. Your evidence is ... that they are sorcerers? But you say that the Thousand Sons were actually loyal even though they were also sorcerers? Take a deep breath and rethink this. Here are the pieces you'll need:

Regarding the Thousand Sons --

(1) Nikaea was aimed directly at Magnus. The Emperor made this explicit in a face-to-face meeting: "do what I say or you are a traitor."

(2) Magnus did not do what the Emperor said.

Regarding the GK --

(1) Malcador, under instructions from the Emperor, gives the GK responsibility to protect humanity from the Ruinous Powers.

(2) The GK eventually use radical methods in pursuit of their mandate.

As you can see, these two situations are actually nothing alike.

Manchu wrote:The coolest thing about Sisters is that they prove one doesn't have to go through the whole rigmarole of Astartes body-building to be a tough-as-nails, front-line, xenos-murdering, heretic-purging human badass.

As an aside, I love this. This is a great summation of why I think the Sisters are so cool, and why they were my first real army in 40K.

Manchu wrote:

(2) The GK eventually use radical methods in pursuit of their mandate.

So did Magnus and the XV Legion.

Lynata wrote:

Eidolon wrote:far superior mental fortitude like marines

Just to expand on this, looking at a large number of Marine Chapters, I see a huge amount of pride and arrogance. At time even outright hatred of Astartes versus "inferior humans". The Sisters on the other hand focus heavily on dedication and humility, which in combination with their seemingly unlimited trust in the Emperor's divine infallibility indeed may act like a shield against the influence of the Ruinous Powers. And then there is the difference of education, one being children born of normal people raised from infancy in an ecclesiarchal school, the other being feral barbarians recruited at childhood and subjected to a brutal treatment of genochemical alteration and crude hypno-indoctrination.

No, I am not convinced that Astartes have a "superior mental fortitude". Rather, I think their susceptibility to the lure of Chaos is quite reasonable. They are in essence a bunch of Conans in a constant battle between their self-defined vision of honour and the nagging feeling of not being treated like many of them think they should, especially after Emps told them to shut up about worshipping him.
.

Sorry, maybe I should have thought that out more. What I mean is that marines are the genetic cream of the crop, you dont become a marine just by being strong, or smart, you have to be exceptionally intelligent, fit, and hard headed. Combine that with the genetic conditioning, decades to centuries of battle, and extremely disciplined life style, and you have beings who are capable of being extremely potent mentally. Far more so than the sisters, who are still basic people genetically and just get along with discipline and badassness. I guess I should say that marines have superior intellectual abilities to regular people, and are far more disciplined. But can still fall, so theres no reason to believe sisters cannot.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

(2) The GK eventually use radical methods in pursuit of their mandate.

So did Magnus and the XV Legion.

I think there's a difference in degree between safekeeping a Daemon Weapon and using Psychic powers (even if you think it is sorcery) and actually making a deal with Tzeentch and carrying warp entities around with every marine.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:The GK eventually use radical methods in pursuit of their mandate.

So did Magnus and the XV Legion.

The mandate given directly to Magnus from the Emperor's own mouth while they stood face-to-face was "no more sorcery or you are a traitor." Magnus then proceeded to use some more sorcery.

Also, the definition of radicalism in 40k is using the weapons of the deamons against them. Magnus was not fighting daemons and so could not be meaningfully called a radical.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

(2) The GK eventually use radical methods in pursuit of their mandate.

So did Magnus and the XV Legion.

And they did so with little concern for the consequences, after the emperor told them specifically not to. The grey knights were never told not to, and do so with extreme caution. Grey knights kill sisters? Demons defeated. Magnus uses sorcery after daddy says dont do it? Warp gate project thing FUBAR. Im not sure whats so hard to understand about this.