Sisters of Chaos???

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**Tadashi**

Manchu wrote:
Tadashi wrote:Thousand Sons got burned even though they didn't use blood magic or daemon weapons...Russ and the Wolves of Fenris should be loosed on Titan.
A lot has changed since the fall of Prospero. Like how there are Librarians again ...

The Edicts of Nikaea were amended by either Malcador or Guilliman during or after the Siege, or even by the Emperor before the Siege, since Index Astartes mentions Him directing Blood Angel and Imperial Fist Librarians against Chaos Sorcerers. And that's beside the point - Space Marines and the rest of the Imperium don't use sorcery, by all rights Titan and Ward's abominations should be burned by the Space Wolves. Bring back the oldcrons and the Daemonhunters.

**Kaldor**

Tadashi wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Tadashi wrote:Last I looked ... sorcery, which includes blood magic and the use of daemon weapons, is ABSOLUTELY forbidden.
Would you mind citing the source where radical methods are ABSOLUTELY forbidden to the Grey Knights?

Oh good, that means I can give Chaos Psychic Powers and Chaos Icons/Marks on Khornate Knight armies since they're allowed to use any method to defeat Chaos. I can even give them Gauss Weapons and Holo-Fields for vehicles.

Do whatever you want in your games. I won't be letting you do that in my games.

Tadashi wrote:Space Marines and the rest of the Imperium don't use sorcery

Explain the difference to me. And then cite your sources that the GK are also prohibited from dealing with what you describe as sorcery.

Steel Angel wrote:So you wouldn't call doing blood magic with innocent blood that they spilled not chaos aligned?

"guardians and priests , roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar."

**********************************************

"the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons."

Can anyone tell me the diff?

Well, the intent is different, and the result is different?

Are you new to 40K?

**Tadashi**

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Space Marines and the rest of the Imperium don't use sorcery

Explain the difference to me. And then cite your sources that the GK are also prohibited from dealing with what you describe as sorcery.

The Edicts of Nikaea EXPLICITLY forbid the practice of sorcery. The only reason Librarians still exist is because they were amended by either the Emperor, Malcador, or Guilliman. But sorcery is still forbidden, otherwise there's no point in declaring Chapters and Inquisitiors renegade and extremis diabolus for using daemonhosts and other such 'radical' methods.

Steel Angel wrote:So you wouldn't call doing blood magic with innocent blood that they spilled not chaos aligned?

"guardians and priests , roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar."

**********************************************

"the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons."

Can anyone tell me the diff?

Well, the intent is different, and the result is different?

Are you new to 40K?

**Pilau Rice**

n0t_u wrote:Yep, it's because they're so classy.

Chaos comes to the Basilica of St. Mariel on the world of Van Horne. A statue of the Emperor is accidentally damaged during renovation work of the inner sanctum, disrupting the forgotten stasis-reliquary within. As the ancient prison crumbles to dust, the Bloodthirster Ka'jagga'nath, Lord of the Bloodtide, breaks free. At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servents, roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar. For eight days and nights the ordies of gore continue, each fresh death luring yet more Daemons through to the mortal world. Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the nith day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the Ebon Chalice assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls. It is only when the Grey Knights' 4th Brotherhood arrives on Van Horne that the Bloodtide is abated.

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart. A trio of Librarians lead the attack, enunciating the cants of cleansing that repel the Bloodtide wherever they tread. In the end, Ka'jagga'nath is only defeated through the selfless sacrifice of Ordan, Champion of the 4th Brotherhood. Before Ka'jagga;nath's spirit can escape his ruined body, the Grey Knights are able to cast the Daemon's dark presence back into the Warip, and the psychic backwash banishes the Bloodtide and the Daemons it drew forth.

Codex: Chaos p41
The Black Sorceries of Daemomancy rely upon certain elements, some physical, others spiritual. The offering of these components in correct quantities and order is Daemomancy . Blood, sweat, hair, bone, fear, loathing and hatred are the Ingredienta Majoris, common to all conjurations and summonings. Dependant on the Nefarious Power to be be entreated, certain Ingredienta Minoris will also be required.

Tadashi wrote: since Index Astartes mentions Him directing Blood Angel and Imperial Fist Librarians against Chaos Sorcerers

Which IA article is this from?

**Kroothawk**

While I love some Ward-bashing because of his bloodtide story, this is about corrupting Sororitas, not corrupting Grey knights.

**Tadashi**

Pilau Rice wrote:
n0t_u wrote:Yep, it's because they're so classy.

Chaos comes to the Basilica of St. Mariel on the world of Van Horne. A statue of the Emperor is accidentally damaged during renovation work of the inner sanctum, disrupting the forgotten stasis-reliquary within. As the ancient prison crumbles to dust, the Bloodthirster Ka'jagga'nath, Lord of the Bloodtide, breaks free. At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servents, roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar. For eight days and nights the ordies of gore continue, each fresh death luring yet more Daemons through to the mortal world. Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the nith day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the Ebon Chalice assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls. It is only when the Grey Knights' 4th Brotherhood arrives on Van Horne that the Bloodtide is abated.

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart. A trio of Librarians lead the attack, enunciating the cants of cleansing that repel the Bloodtide wherever they tread. In the end, Ka'jagga'nath is only defeated through the selfless sacrifice of Ordan, Champion of the 4th Brotherhood. Before Ka'jagga;nath's spirit can escape his ruined body, the Grey Knights are able to cast the Daemon's dark presence back into the Warip, and the psychic backwash banishes the Bloodtide and the Daemons it drew forth.

Codex: Chaos p41
The Black Sorceries of Daemomancy rely upon certain elements, some physical, others spiritual. The offering of these components in correct quantities and order is Daemomancy . Blood, sweat, hair, bone, fear, loathing and hatred are the Ingredienta Majoris, common to all conjurations and summonings. Dependant on the Nefarious Power to be be entreated, certain Ingredienta Minoris will also be required.

I don't understand...are you agreeing with me that the Khornate Knights use blood magic or not?

Tadashi wrote: since Index Astartes mentions Him directing Blood Angel and Imperial Fist Librarians against Chaos Sorcerers

Which IA article is this from?

Index Astartes III

**Pilau Rice**

Kroothawk wrote:While I love some Ward-bashing because of his bloodtide story, this is about corrupting Sororitas, not corrupting Grey knights.

Quite, but in relation to the Bloodtide story both are connected to the other so still on topic just about maybe? Sisters are less likely to fall to taint or corruption than Grey Knights as the later requires blood of purer sisters to remain taintless.

Tadashi wrote:

I don't understand...are you agreeing with me that the Khornate Knights use blood magic or not?

No, I'm just throwing that quote into the mix to see what others make of it.

**Tadashi**

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

I don't understand...are you agreeing with me that the Khornate Knights use blood magic or not?

No, I'm just throwing that quote into the mix to see what others make of it.

Obviously Ward's progeny make use of blood magic, and deserve to have the Wolves loosed on themselves and on Titan.

**androcles138**

Is OP's last name Ward?

As a long time Sisters player, a singular character famous for being //the// Sister to fully give herself to Chaos is a cool anomaly that highlights the incorruptability of the Adepta Sororitas. It also puts them more firmly into the grimdark setting that GW has created, while highlighting the difficulties they face as they go about their holy work.

The idea of a Chaos Sisterhood, however, is re-fething-tarded. Lets have our Chaos immolators belch green flame instead of orange, 'cuz that's more Chaos-y, then have our bat-winged canoness get out and hit things with her demon blessed sword while serephim fly overhead inspire them with their "CREEPY CHAOS PRESENCE".

It happened to a sister, once, it was a good 1 shot thing to highlight the Sisters' incorruptability.

/faceplam.

EDIT: Nerd Rage at thread made editing a necessity.

**van Riemsdyk**

Those are pretty good odds.

**DreadlordME!**

Lynata wrote:
Manchu wrote:No, the SW are bred true by the Emperor's own hand.
Well, I'm sure people would have said that about Horus some time ago.
SW have a mutated geneseed causing them to go into mindless rage, and they reportedly commit heretical rituals in their fortress. (I smell Khorne)

Matter of interpretation, tho.

Their space marines. By rights one could argue they are all devoted to khorne

**Tadashi**

DreadlordME! wrote:
Lynata wrote:
Manchu wrote:No, the SW are bred true by the Emperor's own hand.
Well, I'm sure people would have said that about Horus some time ago.
SW have a mutated geneseed causing them to go into mindless rage, and they reportedly commit heretical rituals in their fortress. (I smell Khorne)

Matter of interpretation, tho.

Their space marines. By rights one could argue they are all devoted to khorne

If the Emperor had sided with Magnus at Nikaea, Russ would probably have fallen to Khorne, and the Sons would be burning Fenris as opposed to the Wolves burning Prospero.

**Melissia**

I feel dirty having read this thread.

Don't we have, like, a thousand other threads about this... and, maybe, just maybe, a search engine for this kind of thing?

Suffice it to say, no. No "Sisters of Chaos". It's trite, boring, overdone nonsense, and doesn't match the lore.

**Kroothawk**

Melissia wrote:I feel dirty having read this thread.
Don't we have, like, a thousand other threads about this... and, maybe, just maybe, a search engine for this kind of thing?
Suffice it to say, no. No "Sisters of Chaos". It's trite, boring, overdone nonsense, and doesn't match the lore.

Lucky you don't play Tau and have to read all those Chaos Tau threads, which come up 5-10 times as often

**Tadashi**

Kroothawk wrote:
Melissia wrote:I feel dirty having read this thread.
Don't we have, like, a thousand other threads about this... and, maybe, just maybe, a search engine for this kind of thing?
Suffice it to say, no. No "Sisters of Chaos". It's trite, boring, overdone nonsense, and doesn't match the lore.

Lucky you don't play Tau and have to read all those Chaos Tau threads, which come up 5-10 times as often

Chaos Tau? Is that even possible?

**Dr Mathias**

I guess if someone really wanted to experience the titillating thrill of a female-oriented chaos group, I'd suggest devising a wayward Death Cult. I can easily imagine a fair few of them have started off as very faithful to the Emperor, and have shifted to Khorne or Slaanesh through coercion, possession, trickery, or gradual acceptance. Everything I've read about the DCA suggests they tread a fine line.

I imagine not all DCA are female, but so far GW's imagery suggests they're all anorexic death-dealing acrobats dressed in fetish wear.

**Kaldor**

Tadashi wrote:
Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Space Marines and the rest of the Imperium don't use sorcery

Explain the difference to me. And then cite your sources that the GK are also prohibited from dealing with what you describe as sorcery.

The Edicts of Nikaea EXPLICITLY forbid the practice of sorcery. The only reason Librarians still exist is because they were amended by either the Emperor, Malcador, or Guilliman. But sorcery is still forbidden, otherwise there's no point in declaring Chapters and Inquisitiors renegade and extremis diabolus for using daemonhosts and other such 'radical' methods.

Yes, but what's the difference? And what would the Edicts of Nikaea have to do with anything? Inquisitors are above that, and by extension so are the Grey Knights.

Tadashi wrote:Then by that logic, Magnus was right in using sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' treachery, since he intended well and the result just turned out badly.

I'm not sure that logic works the way you think it does.

Good intentions + Successful result = good result.

Bad intentions + Successful result = bad result.

Good intentions + Unsuccessful result = ?

**Tadashi**

Kaldor wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Space Marines and the rest of the Imperium don't use sorcery

Explain the difference to me. And then cite your sources that the GK are also prohibited from dealing with what you describe as sorcery.

The Edicts of Nikaea EXPLICITLY forbid the practice of sorcery. The only reason Librarians still exist is because they were amended by either the Emperor, Malcador, or Guilliman. But sorcery is still forbidden, otherwise there's no point in declaring Chapters and Inquisitiors renegade and extremis diabolus for using daemonhosts and other such 'radical' methods.

Yes, but what's the difference? And what would the Edicts of Nikaea have to do with anything? Inquisitors are above that, and by extension so are the Grey Knights.

If the Edicts don't apply to Inquisitors, then why condemn the use of daemonhosts and daemon weapons and other 'radical' methods?

**Psienesis**

In brief, the difference between Sorcery and what a Psyker does pertains to the person creating the effect and by what means they go about doing it.

A Psyker is genetically capable of sensing, manipulating and projecting the powers of the Warp into physical reality by force of will alone. Certain somatic gestures or components may enhance these effects, but are not, strictly speaking, required. For the Librarian, or the general Psyker, this is an ability they are born with, and hone throughout their lives by study and practice.

Sorcery is the creation of Warp Effects through practiced ritual, the collection of resonant materials, enacting certain actions according to formula, and the recitation of words, chants or prayers, often in the various languages of the Warp. Creating sorcery in this manner does not require one to be a Psyker in order to conjure the effects, it simply requires being in the right place at the right time with the right materials on hand, and the knowledge of how to enact the ritual. Unlike the Psyker, there is no Sanctioning of a Sorcerer, no way to make what they do any less dangerous or provide any buffer between the Warp and Realspace. Further, Psykers can be tracked genetically, tested for and sensed by other Psykers or technological means that duplicate these effects (such as psy-trackers). Sorcerers, however, have no tell-tale genetic markers or other distinguishing features to reveal the knowledge they possess.

**Tadashi**

Psienesis wrote:

Sorcery is the creation of Warp Effects through practiced ritual, the collection of resonant materials, enacting certain actions according to formula, and the recitation of words, chants or prayers, often in the various languages of the Warp. Creating sorcery in this manner does not require one to be a Psyker in order to conjure the effects, it simply requires being in the right place at the right time with the right materials on hand, and the knowledge of how to enact the ritual. Unlike the Psyker, there is no Sanctioning of a Sorcerer, no way to make what they do any less dangerous or provide any buffer between the Warp and Realspace. Further, Psykers can be tracked genetically, tested for and sensed by other Psykers or technological means that duplicate these effects (such as psy-trackers). Sorcerers, however, have no tell-tale genetic markers or other distinguishing features to reveal the knowledge they possess.

Does blood magic and the use of daemon weapons and daemonhosts count as sorcery?

**Kaldor**

Tadashi wrote:If the Edicts don't apply to Inquisitors, then why condemn the use of daemonhosts and daemon weapons and other 'radical' methods?

What, you think a radical Inquisitor is going to condemn himself? There are a myriad of different factions within the Inquisition. Some are puritan, some are radical.

@Psienesis: Do you have a source to hand for that information? I only ask because as I recall, the differences have been blurred by recent background.

**Tadashi**

Kaldor wrote:
Tadashi wrote:If the Edicts don't apply to Inquisitors, then why condemn the use of daemonhosts and daemon weapons and other 'radical' methods?

What, you think a radical Inquisitor is going to condemn himself? There are a myriad of different factions within the Inquisition. Some are puritan, some are radical.

As I recall, Daemonhunters refused to fight alongside daemonhosts or radical Inquisitors. Them 'learning from their enemies' is just making sure they don't make past mistakes again. They didn't and never would use sorcery. But I suppose since Khornate Knights can and do make use of blood magic and daemon weapons, they will fight alongside daemonhosts and radical Inquisitors.

**pzbw7z**

In Daemonifuge, a Sister was possessed by a Slaneeshi daemon in the Convent Prioris on Ophelia VII until Ephrael Stern ripped it out of her.

Asteroth's Daughters who attacked the second expedition were also fallen Sisters from the first expedition.

Chaos Sisters has been done before, usually just using Chaos rules back before they sucked. I started to cobble some models together WAY back when, but I gave up on it pretty quickly. Even head swaps are a major pain with all metal models and bits.

**Kaldor**

Tadashi wrote:As I recall, Daemonhunters refused to fight alongside daemonhosts or radical Inquisitors. Them 'learning from their enemies' is just making sure they don't make past mistakes again. They didn't and never would use sorcery. But I suppose since Khornate Knights can and do make use of blood magic and daemon weapons, they will fight alongside daemonhosts and radical Inquisitors.

Firstly, you know you are literally the only person on the internet using the ridiculous "khornate knights" name?

Secondly, Grey Knights have fought with radical inquisitors.

Thirdly, what source states they wouldn't use sorcery? What do you think the Aegis is?

**Lynata**

pzbw7z wrote:In Daemonifuge, a Sister was possessed by a Slaneeshi daemon in the Convent Prioris on Ophelia VII until Ephrael Stern ripped it out of her.
Asteroth's Daughters who attacked the second expedition were also fallen Sisters from the first expedition.

Yup, as every so often the sources are conflicting as to the frequency with which a Sister falling to Chaos happens.

There's probably some way to weave a complicated theory around all of this to make it fit together, but at the end of the day it's just one of many examples where the writers of outsourced products didn't care much what each other wrote, and I think this has to be kept in mind when discussing topics like this. GW themselves are washing their hands clean - as far as they are concerned, "Chaos Sisters" has never happened in studio material, not even once (Lexicanum simply lies when it claims that Miriael is referenced in the Codex), though they also do not say it couldn't happen.

So it all depends on where you look and which source you want to accept for your own interpretation of the setting.

**Tadashi**

Kaldor wrote:
Tadashi wrote:As I recall, Daemonhunters refused to fight alongside daemonhosts or radical Inquisitors. Them 'learning from their enemies' is just making sure they don't make past mistakes again. They didn't and never would use sorcery. But I suppose since Khornate Knights can and do make use of blood magic and daemon weapons, they will fight alongside daemonhosts and radical Inquisitors.

Firstly, you know you are literally the only person on the internet using the ridiculous "khornate knights" name?

With great pride against Ward's heresies on 40k.

Thirdly, what source states they wouldn't use sorcery? What do you think the Aegis is?

Psychic power.

**Necrosis**

Lots of people call them Khornate Knights.

**Tadashi**

Necrosis wrote:Lots of people call them Khornate Knights.

I thought me and Brother Coa were the only ones. He's banned by the way, for trolling and multiple accounts, though that's what he told me over Facebook.

**Necrosis**

I go to other forums and see it used often there.

**Tadashi**

Necrosis wrote:I go to other forums and see it used often there.

Its so nice to know that other people prefer the legendary and famed Daemonhunters over the infamous and hated Khornate Knights.