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That's possible, too, or that the two have become one, the first being the psychic mind of the mortal Emperor, the other being the gestalt Warp God birthed by uncounted trillions of humans believing in him. The two fused, because psychic-brain-guy said "You know, I'd be an idiot not to make use of that", and Man-Created-God-Emperor was there and already believed to be an aspect or part of this psychic mind-form.

Mr Morden wrote:I do quite like the idea that the worship of the Emperor has created a dark twin in the warp that is now the actuality of the Emperor they believe in as a actual God

and He is able to grant his followers rewards and protection.

You know -- that kind of implies that the Golden Throne doesn't actually do what they think it does. Which would be funny and cool.


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Psienesis wrote:That's possible, too, or that the two have become one, the first being the psychic mind of the mortal Emperor, the other being the gestalt Warp God birthed by uncounted trillions of humans believing in him. The two fused, because psychic-brain-guy said "You know, I'd be an idiot not to make use of that", and Man-Created-God-Emperor was there and already believed to be an aspect or part of this psychic mind-form.

I love that. That's is incredibly interesting and it actually explains a lot about why the Emperor behaved as he did during the Great Crusade and during the HH.

Psienesis wrote:That's possible, too, or that the two have become one, the first being the psychic mind of the mortal Emperor, the other being the gestalt Warp God birthed by uncounted trillions of humans believing in him. The two fused, because psychic-brain-guy said "You know, I'd be an idiot not to make use of that", and Man-Created-God-Emperor was there and already believed to be an aspect or part of this psychic mind-form.

Wicked.

And it'd totally be possible, given what we heard about the warp so far.

It fits nicely with some of the things I have been suspecting:

- The Emperor knew mankind could only survive through dominance, of real space and the warp

- He created the Primarchs by striking a deal with Chaos

- the point of the Primarchs was two-fold: (1) to re-conquer the former Terran and Martian Empires; (2) to distract the Chaos Gods

- regarding (2) above, the Emperor foresaw that there would be an event like the Horus Heresy; whether he foresaw the exact details is immaterial

- this, too, was part of his plan: the Four would busy themselves with attempting to corrupt the Primarchs

- the point of the Great Crusade was to destroy all belief systems other than the "Imperial Truth" so that every human would be in a position to believe the same thing or at least a similar thing

- the Chaos Gods had knowledge of the outcome of the Emperor's plans, if not the specifics and showed Horus -- namely, a scene of the Ecclesiarchy

- enraged, Horus turns against the Emperor, just as the Emperor had planned

- the resulting crisis creates the proper environment for the emergence of faith in the Emperor; thanks to the Great Crusade, humanity has nothing else to believe in

- that faith allows the Emperor to have a "double" in the Warp, a Warp God that he is personally tied to

- as a Warp God himself, so to speak, the Emperor would be in a position to lead humanity in dominance of the Warp and real space ... which is, in a very flawed way, what has happened

I still see the problem being that "belief" does not "create" Chaos Gods.

Manchu wrote:I still see the problem being that "belief" does not "create" Chaos Gods.

Well, religion is tightly connected to emotion - and that creates warp entities, as we know from Slaanesh.

Would also fit my theory on the Living Saints, by the way.

Lynata wrote:Well, religion is tightly connected to emotion - and that creates warp entities, as we know from Slaanesh.

I'll pass over the word "create" there, as I have spent so much time trying to add nuance to how people use that word with regard to Slaanesh over the last few weeks and know you must have read at least some of it by now. Moving on, maybe this explains why the Emperor allowed Lorgar to spread his weird ideas up to a point. He basically needed someone to write Lectitio Divinitatus. But he didn't want a church built out of it as a rational matter. I personally am religious and I don't perceive my belief in God as an emotional but rather a rational matter. Now, if I had converted to Catholicism because of some emotional need created by trauma, that might be different. The Emperor wanted his converts to be faithful for emotional reasons and his whole faith to be an emotional one.

Making more and more sense.

Lynata wrote:Would also fit my theory on the Living Saints, by the way.

I don't remember your theory exactly. Did you mean that a Living Saint is someone who is a real space person and at the same time some kind of Warp entity or tied to a Warp entity? Like a ... for lack of a better term, "reverse daemon prince"?

Manchu wrote:I don't remember your theory exactly. Did you mean that a Living Saint is someone who is a real space person and at the same time some kind of Warp entity or tied to a Warp entity? Like a ... for lack of a better term, "reverse daemon prince"?

Basically, yeah!

The emotions of a large mass of people, all united in both terror and faith, praying to the Emperor for deliverance - this immense outburst, this vortex of hope, despair and hate would grow until it is strong enough to be given form within the twisting nethers of the warp, especially in crisis zones where the veil has already been weakened. This newborn entity, driven by the need to protect and avenge, would descend upon the battlefield, a shapeless existence summoned to the focal point of this wreathing mass of pained human bodies, where it would seek out and possess one of the most faithful, someone most suited to act as a conduit to draw this thought-being into realspace. Upon that moment, this individual will be filled by holy hatred and a purpose magnified by the local masses, tapping an invisible connection to the warp to exert their newfound power.
Yet even as this avenging angel begins her terrible harvest upon the enemies of Mankind, the despair and terror of the masses slowly give way to satisfaction, then indifference. Finally, separated from its home plane and sapped of power, the Living Saint will slowly burn out until, leaving the host body a wrecked shell unable to persist on its own.

As for religion/emotion - I don't think you need some sort of trauma, actually. It may well be within the human nature to want to believe in something greater than us, regardless of whether this something is an organisation, a cause, or a divine entity. It's what has spurred our civilization onward ever since. In a way, I think you could say we all have faith - in something. And desire is an emotion, I believe.

First off, I find your theory (1) convincing and (2) compelling.

Lynata wrote:And desire is an emotion, I believe.

But I don't think IRL faith necessarily proceeds from desire. I think it can and does (in some cases, perhaps less now than in early epochs) proceed from rationality.

Manchu wrote:But I don't think IRL faith necessarily proceeds from desire. I think it can and does (in some cases, perhaps less now than in early epochs) proceed from rationality.

At the risk of stepping onto a minefield - rationality, because faith (also) aims to explain that which is (as of yet) unexplainable? Isn't that a desire as well?

Lynata wrote:At the risk of stepping onto a minefield - rationality, because faith (also) aims to explain that which is (as of yet) unexplainable? Isn't that a desire as well?

I suppose for that to be true, one would have to think of God as inexplicable. I don't want to get too off-topic here so I will PM you something on this instead.

This line of thought begs the question: Does having faith in the Chaos gods make them stronger or just being violent/hedonistic etc. etc.

In short does chaos actually need people on its side or just people whipped up into a frenzy?

If that latter this would suggest chaos sisters wouldn't have faith just extreme emotional states to feed their gods. Maybe army wide rage or some sort of frenzy ability instead of army wide shield of faith.

Kris Knives wrote:In short does chaos actually need people on its side or just people whipped up into a frenzy?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/461832.page#4520170

Manchu wrote:

Kris Knives wrote:In short does chaos actually need people on its side or just people whipped up into a frenzy?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/461832.page#4520170

Yes even if you subscribe to the idea the the warp resonates with emotion and thought not believe is plausible that a chaos god or any warp entity might gain benefits from belief, emotion and thought directed at them specifically rather then just being sucked up into the warp aimlessly.

Edit: I personally prefer though to assume it does not since I agree with those who says Chaos sister just having anti-faith or chaos-faith is kind of weak and detracts from the actual Sisters of Battle.

Well, that is what we were talking about right before you posted here ...

I know, I was just trying to join the conversation.

Ok, well, if you want Chaos Sisters, then yeah, I guess they act a lot like Word Bearers.

Based on some of the current Chaos fluff, it's action and emotion, not belief or faith, that powers the Chaos Gods. This is why Khorne is the current Top Dog amongst the Great Powers, because the galaxy is a fething violent place, and there's massive wars going on all over the place, even if his forces are not directly involved. As the God of Carnage, Bloodshed and Slaughter, when people are killing and dying, he's feeding off of that, regardless of whether or not people are on that battlefield screaming "Blood for the Blood God!".

This also explains how Slaanesh came to be. The Pre-Fall Eldar weren't worshiping the Prince, they weren't even really aware of its possible, potential existence, they were just *that* hedonistic, and apparently got into some *really* weird kinks, and created a Chaos God out of nothing.

Psienesis wrote:Based on some of the current Chaos fluff, it's action and emotion, not belief or faith, that powers the Chaos Gods. This is why Khorne is the current Top Dog amongst the Great Powers, because the galaxy is a fething violent place, and there's massive wars going on all over the place, even if his forces are not directly involved. As the God of Carnage, Bloodshed and Slaughter, when people are killing and dying, he's feeding off of that, regardless of whether or not people are on that battlefield screaming "Blood for the Blood God!".

This also explains how Slaanesh came to be. The Pre-Fall Eldar weren't worshiping the Prince, they weren't even really aware of its possible, potential existence, they were just *that* hedonistic, and apparently got into some *really* weird kinks, and created a Chaos God out of nothing.

I agree that is how it is written but then you would think Slaanesh would be open drug dens, brothels and starting reality TV shows instead of sending demon princes to destroy worlds. How does that help the cause of hedonism which Slaanesh embodies?

Slaanesh doesn't always send armies. He's content to slither through the courts of decadent imperial nobles as well as the lower level red light districts of the hives.

Kris Knives wrote:I agree that is how it is written but then you would think Slaanesh would be open drug dens, brothels and starting reality TV shows instead of sending demon princes to destroy worlds. How does that help the cause of hedonism which Slaanesh embodies?

Death and pain are just other experiences to be enjoyed, whether it's yours or someone else's.

Really interesting stuff about the emperor's possible motives here guys, keep going!

Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:I still see the problem being that "belief" does not "create" Chaos Gods.

Well, religion is tightly connected to emotion - and that creates warp entities, as we know from Slaanesh.
)

Boinking for kicks and beating Tetris created Slaanesh

Psienesis wrote:This also explains how Slaanesh came to be. The Pre-Fall Eldar weren't worshiping the Prince, they weren't even really aware of its possible, potential existence, they were just *that* hedonistic, and apparently got into some *really* weird kinks, and created a Chaos God out of nothing.

This is my whole problem with this living and warp Emperor idea. Now, I understand what is being said and yeah, I guess it's plausible. But my argument against this is that the worship is aimed at being which already exists and that already has a presence in the warp, regardless of whether they call him the Emperor or God Emperor, it's all directed to the same Emperor. Religions all over the Imperium have their own different Interpretation of the Emperor, but these don't lead to other Emperors being formed in the warp as they are all effectively the same guy. Well, at least I don't believe there are.Having a Legion of Warp God Emperors, one that throws lightning, one that has four legs etc etc, would be quite the nightmare for chaos.

The problem with the theory as stated is the concept of worship. It's not worship that would inform the Warp entity known as the God-Emperor. Rather it is the cluster of emotional experiences of desperately needing a savior and identifying the real space being known as the Emperor as that savior.

Mind you, this bit of theory-craft is different from the one that has its own thread. I'm positing the idea that there is a sort of "Warp Host" created for the psychic mind of the God-Emperor by Humanity's collective belief in him that, post-ascension, the God-Emperor, the mortal (more accurately, the psychic mind of the mortal) has made use of/taken control of/merged with/whatever you want to call it.

We already know that exposing one's mind to the psychic might of the Emperor can cause blindness, baldness, all sorts of other things from the Sanctioning rites, as well as he consumes a thousand psykers a day to keep the Astronomican lit, there's definitely something going on there with him absorbing psychic power. Now, when you've got a dimension that is all entirely based on emotion and belief and so on, and you roll in there as your psychic mind-form, and you find that someone has been kind enough to set up a pre-furnished flat with your name on the door, why wouldn't you immediately take up residence, as long as someone else keeps paying the rent?

Of course, some daemons are going to want in on this, and in some scattered areas, in real-space, you find variations on the Creed becoming so debased or so manipulated that the locals are actually worshiping some daemon or another, and so they're getting a cut of that emotional power that would, in normal circumstances, be going to this God-Emperor entity Humanity has created, but this usurpation is on such a relatively small scale that it does not greatly affect the God-Emperor in his psychic/Warp form.