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Half-dead isn't exactly a real term either.

Right, so don't bring real terms into it. In the fluff, he is still alive and is using his psychic might.

pretre wrote:Right, so don't bring real terms into it. In the fluff, he is still alive and is using his psychic might.

Does being a mummified skeleton count as alive? There's a term for that: I must scream...

If the mummified skeleton still is alive and can keep back the forces of chaos, yes.

One of the central tenets of several radical factions is that if we could kill him, he would be reborn. That the half-dead state he is kept in prevents him from achieving his full power.

Tadashi wrote:Won't that make him 'clinically dead' in the real world?

He'd be clinically dead if they shut off the machines, like with braindead people. The death certificate is only issued when they no longer have a pulse, afaik.

This also ties in with the big conspiracy in the opening of GW's Inquisitor RPG, by the way - where some Inquisitors talk about doing just that, shutting down the Golden Throne, in order to allow the Emperor to be reborn. For to be reborn, he first needs to die for reals. As long as his body "draws breath", the Emperor's essence is still tied to his broken shell and cannot resurrect.

Anyone seen the Sororitas thread?

Which one this time?

edit: Oh, now I get it. This was never a SoB thread. It was just an accident waiting to happen.

We've been circling around it. I think SoB threads get like this because the SoB themselves represent a lot of controversial points:

- Space Marines aren't so special (including GK)
- the Emperor guides and protects humanity
- faith in the Emperor protects against the daemonic rather than promoting the daemonic

etc

Fair points, but I believe that is what sets the SOB apart from any other faction. They accomplish everything they are and do through faith in the God-Emperor, indicating that their faith is not misplaced, and that the claims of the Traitor Legions are erroneous, at best.

Manchu wrote:Well, there's also the old whisper-to-possesion deal. Fulgrim's fall was much better handled than Horus's and Fulgrim was only willing up to a point. Too bad for him that he didn't have the power to resist possession at that point.

Hey enough about fulgrim, what about Peturablo?

What about Perturabo?

pretre wrote:If the mummified skeleton still is alive and can keep back the forces of chaos, yes.

One of the central tenets of several radical factions is that if we could kill him, he would be reborn. That the half-dead state he is kept in prevents him from achieving his full power.

Do you have proof that he will reborn/resurrected/restored? On the contrary, we have all the proof I need that he's already clinically dead. We just pull the plug on the Throne, and his mummified and mindless body will finally die.

Tadashi wrote:On the contrary, we have all the proof I need that he's already clinically dead. We just pull the plug on the Throne, and his mummified and mindless body will finally die.

As long as you need to pull a plug to "make him die", he's not dead yet, though, is he?

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Clinical+death

I think his condition is quite similar to a very, very, very long coma. His body is unable to sustain itself without machinery, but his mind is still ... somewhere.

Psienesis wrote:Fair points, but I believe that is what sets the SOB apart from any other faction. They accomplish everything they are and do through faith in the God-Emperor, indicating that their faith is not misplaced, and that the claims of the Traitor Legions are erroneous, at best.

That and their fabulous hair!

Psienesis wrote:Fair points, but I believe that is what sets the SOB apart from any other faction. They accomplish everything they are and do through faith in the God-Emperor, indicating that their faith is not misplaced, and that the claims of the Traitor Legions are erroneous, at best.

And yet their existence (and that of the Ecclesiarchy) contradicts the Emperor's dreams and ideals. Of he ever gets reborn (which I doubt), he'll be very angry. Looks like a repeat of Monarchia, except this time it'll be on the Convents and Palaces of the Sisters and Ecclesiarchy respectively.

pzbw7z wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Fair points, but I believe that is what sets the SOB apart from any other faction. They accomplish everything they are and do through faith in the God-Emperor, indicating that their faith is not misplaced, and that the claims of the Traitor Legions are erroneous, at best.

That and their fabulous hair!

As well as love for burning people and ugh... things.

Though to be honest I'm surprised no one has photoshoped a fluff friendlier allies chart to replace this monstrosity.

Tadashi wrote:And yet their existence (and that of the Ecclesiarchy) contradicts the Emperor's dreams and ideals. Of he ever gets reborn (which I doubt), he'll be very angry. Looks like a repeat of Monarchia, except this time it'll be on the Convents and Palaces of the Sisters and Ecclesiarchy respectively.

I could see the Church trying to denounce Him for being a fake or something.

On that note, however, it is interesting that He still seems to be actively aware of the Sororitas existence. Assuming this wasn't all some scheme by the Custodes, He did talk to Saint Dominica and her companions, prompting them to execute Vandire.

Yori wrote:Though to be honest I'm surprised no one has photoshoped a fluff friendlier allies chart to replace this monstrosity.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/461162.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/461316.page

I stand corrected , thx for showing me these.

Tadashi wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Fair points, but I believe that is what sets the SOB apart from any other faction. They accomplish everything they are and do through faith in the God-Emperor, indicating that their faith is not misplaced, and that the claims of the Traitor Legions are erroneous, at best.

And yet their existence (and that of the Ecclesiarchy) contradicts the Emperor's dreams and ideals. Of he ever gets reborn (which I doubt), he'll be very angry. Looks like a repeat of Monarchia, except this time it'll be on the Convents and Palaces of the Sisters and Ecclesiarchy respectively.

Assuming the Emperor thinks that 41M is somehow an identical reality to M31, which I doubt, greatly. The God-Emperor seems quite aware of what's going on in the modern era, and he's a very pragmatic individual. If you can't get rid of religion, you might as well have yourself as the center of it.

Psienesis wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Fair points, but I believe that is what sets the SOB apart from any other faction. They accomplish everything they are and do through faith in the God-Emperor, indicating that their faith is not misplaced, and that the claims of the Traitor Legions are erroneous, at best.

And yet their existence (and that of the Ecclesiarchy) contradicts the Emperor's dreams and ideals. Of he ever gets reborn (which I doubt), he'll be very angry. Looks like a repeat of Monarchia, except this time it'll be on the Convents and Palaces of the Sisters and Ecclesiarchy respectively.

Assuming the Emperor thinks that 41M is somehow an identical reality to M31, which I doubt, greatly. The God-Emperor seems quite aware of what's going on in the modern era, and he's a very pragmatic individual. If you can't get rid of religion, you might as well have yourself as the center of it.

Are we even sure he's awake? For all we know, when those Sisters who were brought into the throne room in M36 could have just seen, well, a corpse on a throne, and just came to their senses seeing the Emperor's corpse, seeking to emulate the Emperor's sacrifice rather than because they were told something. Last I looked, corpses don't talk.

Tadashi wrote:For all we know, when those Sisters who were brought into the throne room in M36 could have just seen, well, a corpse on a throne, and just came to their senses seeing the Emperor's corpse, seeking to emulate the Emperor's sacrifice rather than because they were told something.

Huh? I don't get what you are aiming at here. "Emulating the Emperor's sacrifice" with what? The Sisters have been emulating His sacrifice with their castigation rituals ever since they came into being. And obviously whatever they saw did not shatter their faith either, considering their continued service. The only thing we know for sure is that they came back with grim determination and murderous hate in their eyes, all directed at the man who had betrayed them.

I could imagine an elaborate scheme pulled by the Custodes, using a machine to fake His voice, but that is a pretty far-fetched theory based entirely on the idea that the Emperor is nothing more but a mummy, unable to influence anything anymore and not even needed for the Astronomicon (which would be generated purely by psykers being fed to the machine, with the Emperor's corpse being nothing but decoration). And that it is the Custodes who are the real power behind the Golden Throne.
Which would make for a cool plot, but also invalidate a lot of other stuff.

I could as well say "actually, there are no Chaos Gods - it's just a fake pulled by an omnipotent God-Emperor to plunge the galaxy into an Eternal War as a crucible for Mankind, and the apparent death of His body was all part of the plan". Same level of theorycraft.

Tadashi wrote:Last I looked, corpses don't talk.

Last I looked, corpses don't bond with psykers either.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:For all we know, when those Sisters who were brought into the throne room in M36 could have just seen, well, a corpse on a throne, and just came to their senses seeing the Emperor's corpse, seeking to emulate the Emperor's sacrifice rather than because they were told something.

Huh? I don't get what you are aiming at here. "Emulating the Emperor's sacrifice" with what? The Sisters have been emulating His sacrifice with their castigation rituals ever since they came into being. And obviously whatever they saw did not shatter their faith either, considering their continued service. The only thing we know for sure is that they came back with grim determination and murderous hate in their eyes, all directed at the man who had betrayed them.

Tadashi wrote:Or they just realized how fethed being the brides of a corpse was, and being his daughters to serve and protect the people as opposed to being the bodyguards and attendants (among other things) of a madman was the right thing to do.

That ... doesn't really make sense.

Apart from this supposed realization that the Emperor is actually a dead, unmoving corpse shattering their faith and taking away their raison d'etre (why fight at all if He doesn't really exist?), it would have no meaning whatsoever for their relationship to Vandire. Why should they see him as a traitor now? That explanation only works if they would have dropped their faith there and then (feeling betrayed by religion to a corpse) and suddenly became secular, which obviously wasn't the case.

Furthermore, the Sisters didn't revert to the "Daughters" moniker because it was more fitting but because this was their original name, and it was solely due to Vandire that they accepted becoming "Brides" in the first place. By changing back to their first name they were essentially drawing a line behind this whole unlucky era of their existence.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Or they just realized how fethed being the brides of a corpse was, and being his daughters to serve and protect the people as opposed to being the bodyguards and attendants (among other things) of a madman was the right thing to do.

That ... doesn't really make sense.

Apart from this supposed realization that the Emperor is actually a dead, unmoving corpse shattering their faith and taking away their raison d'etre (why fight at all if He doesn't really exist?), it would have no meaning whatsoever for their relationship to Vandire. Why should they see him as a traitor now? That explanation only works if they would have dropped their faith there and then (feeling betrayed by religion to a corpse) and suddenly became secular, which obviously wasn't the case.

They probably realized that keeping the truth to themselves was better for the Imperium as a whole, which is ironic since the Emperor's truth was purely secular. Or the Custodes made a deal with them, as you yourself stated.

Tadashi wrote:They probably realized that keeping the truth to themselves was better for the Imperium as a whole

That might have been a possibility were it not for the fact that these Founding Saints continued to be rather faithful and went on to establish entire Orders of Sisters in the Emperor's name.

Not exactly what you'd expect from a person who just went through a major crisis of faith.

Tadashi wrote:Or the Custodes made a deal with them, as you yourself stated.

No deal, they would have to fool them.
And like I said, whilst that is a theory that would work, it's on the same level as claiming that all four Chaos Gods are just a mask of the Emperor playing His great game.
Which would make an awesome narrative, tho.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:They probably realized that keeping the truth to themselves was better for the Imperium as a whole

That might have been a possibility were it not for the fact that these Founding Saints continued to be rather faithful and went on to establish entire Orders of Sisters in the Emperor's name.

Not exactly what you'd expect from a person who just went through a major crisis of faith.

Or, they came to believe in his divinity, having transcended his mortal form, not realizing he's dead. And that everything they do would have made him very angry. He ordered Monarchia burned to the ground simply because they worshipped him, while Magnus and the Sons were simply supposed to be taken back to Terra for wrecking the Imperial Webway.

Which would make an awesome narrative, tho.

Lol...

Unit of Sisters within 12 inches of Skarbrand.

There.

Chaos sisters.

BTW I now have to draw a picture of Chaos Sisters for my gallery.

Edited for spelling.

Tadashi wrote:Are we even sure he's awake?

Codex: Daemons almost out right says he is, that his constant actions are the only reason that the daemons of chaos haven't taken over the galaxy yet.


His body may not be awake, but His mind certainly is still active.

Tadashi wrote:Or, they came to believe in his divinity, having transcended his mortal form, not realizing he's dead. And that everything they do would have made him very angry.

So just by looking at a corpse they suddenly realize Vandire's corruption when they were 100% believing in him before? I don't think this theory holds much potential.

Tadashi wrote:He ordered Monarchia burned to the ground simply because they worshipped him, while Magnus and the Sons were simply supposed to be taken back to Terra for wrecking the Imperial Webway.

Are you implying that the Sisters realized that the Emperor didn't want them to worship Him, so they killed Vandire for excessive worship, then returned to worshipping Him even more?

I do quite like the idea that the worship of the Emperor has created a dark twin in the warp that is now the actuality of the Emperor they believe in as a actual God

and He is able to grant his followers rewards and protection.