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Bacms wrote:I am not saying I am right or wrong. I am trying to discuss something for which my interpretation is different from yours. You are saying you are right I am saying that the way it is written it is not clear and I have a different interpretation. That is what YMDC is for. The problem I have with your interpretation is that it says that pile in moves that place at the beginning of the turn, not at the end. So a SM squad kills orks and it is no longer in b2b, you have to play the next initiative step always. So the combat does not end if at the end of the turn you are no longer in base contact. There is no place in the rules that allows you to do this even if you assume that both players pile is only referring to the current initiative step.

It is very clear, when you actually read the rule in queston and not your changed version of it.

What you are doing is taking a parenthetical, which literally explains / expounds on a concept but cannot change it, and ignoring the word "Initiative step" and assuming they really meant "all init steps for the entire combat, even though you cannot possibly do that because you dont actually know what models have been removed from b2b yet"

Where does it say that Pile In occurs at the start of the turn? It says that pile in occurs at each I step, and then again at the end of combat, if it is ongoing. Page and parag for you saying otherwise, as per the tenets of this forum

You are also misunderstanding the side that has read the rules - you dont end at the point the marines have killed the Orks. You move to the I2 (for example) step, attempt pile in and THEN and ONLY THEN if you still cannot make b2b combat ends. Exactly as the rule tells you.

Seriously - you are ignoring the rule that tells you the remaining I steps are lost. You are ignoring the rule that state the pile in is for THE initiaitive step, not ALL init steps. If you didnt do all that the rule would be a lot clearer!

I can see an argument for both sides as it is very curious why they would include the part "{thats more than 6' - very unlikely)" This could be referring to A. Assuming both sides will have the same initiative value hence the 6 inches, Or B. Assuming that each side regardless of initiative value will be able to pile in again equalling the 6 inches. I don't know for sure but I think we can all agree that one of the most important parts of the game has been skewed by the people who created it. I am disappointed

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Except you CANNOT DO THAT, as you DONT KNOW HOW COMBAT WILL WORK OUT. It is literally impossible for you to know how the rest of the I steps will go, because the game is full of random chance.

I could kill 10 models, or none

So please, for once - stop ignoring rules.

Ya know, this is "You Make Da Call". I'm engaging in a discussion about how the rules are interpreted. I've made my points, I understand your points. I think my way makes more "sense" and may be how the rule is meant to be interpreted. Why don't you actually take part in the discussion instead of simply saying "I'm wrong" and "stop ignoring the rules". I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm posting an interpretation to what is obviously a strange rule as written and to understand. It's not like I'm claiming something outrageous like "Twin Linked Weapons can re-roll infinitely until they hit"

Also, if you've read my previous post, I've said before that there is no need to know "how combat will work out" from a casualty standpoint. The only time you need to know how the rest of the Initiatives steps will go is if nobody is in B2B to begin with. During your Initiative step, if you Pile in and don't reach your opponent, you simply do a quick measure to determine if ANYONE will EVER get into B2B with their pile in moves for the rest of combat. If that answer is "no" then combat ends. You don't spend the rest of combat simply making pile-in moves towards each other with nothing happening.

But if something WILL happen eventually in the next Initiative step or down the line, then you make your pile in move and continue.

I'll be happy to eat crow when / if a FAQ or errata comes out that says this is wrong. But with the examples posted so far, I think the method that you're interpreting leads to Assaults generally not making sense a good portion of the time, and I don't think it's a great leap in logic from there to question whether or not your interpretation is actually how things are supposed to go.

I haven't played a game of 6th yet, but when I do and if my method is totally wonky and doesn't work, I'll be sure to say so.

fixxxer76 wrote: I can see an argument for both sides as it is very curious why they would include the part "{thats more than 6' - very unlikely)" This could be referring to A. Assuming both sides will have the same initiative value hence the 6 inches, Or B. Assuming that each side regardless of initiative value will be able to pile in again equalling the 6 inches. I don't know for sure but I think we can all agree that one of the most important parts of the game has been skewed by the people who created it. I am disappointed

Because it's refering to something that involves both combatants moving in at the same initiative. Eldar and Marines. The player whose turn it is moves in first (say, marines) and the Eldar, and if both of their 3" moves (so they are 7" apart) means that they can not reach Base to base, the combat ends.

Since both of them move at the same initiative step, it requires them to be more than 6" apart for them to end the combat.

However, at differing Initiative levels, such as Orks and Marines, if the Marines, in their pile in move, can not make it the 3" to an Ork, the combat would end. Since, the only player allowed to pile in move is the Space Marine player, the Ork Player can not move to try to rectify this. And, since the Marines can't make it 3" to the Orks, the combat ends.

The Orks then make a Leadership test. If they pass (they will) they both move 3" together, and continue combat during the next assault phase.

Murrdox wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Except you CANNOT DO THAT, as you DONT KNOW HOW COMBAT WILL WORK OUT. It is literally impossible for you to know how the rest of the I steps will go, because the game is full of random chance.

I could kill 10 models, or none

So please, for once - stop ignoring rules.

Ya know, this is "You Make Da Call". I'm engaging in a discussion about how the rules are interpreted. I've made my points, I understand your points. I think my way makes more "sense" and may be how the rule is meant to be interpreted. Why don't you actually take part in the discussion instead of simply saying "I'm wrong" and "stop ignoring the rules". I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm posting an interpretation to what is obviously a strange rule as written and to understand. It's not like I'm claiming something outrageous like "Twin Linked Weapons can re-roll infinitely until they hit"

Also, if you've read my previous post, I've said before that there is no need to know "how combat will work out" from a casualty standpoint. The only time you need to know how the rest of the Initiatives steps will go is if nobody is in B2B to begin with. During your Initiative step, if you Pile in and don't reach your opponent, you simply do a quick measure to determine if ANYONE will EVER get into B2B with their pile in moves for the rest of combat. If that answer is "no" then combat ends. You don't spend the rest of combat simply making pile-in moves towards each other with nothing happening.

But if something WILL happen eventually in the next Initiative step or down the line, then you make your pile in move and continue.

I'll be happy to eat crow when / if a FAQ or errata comes out that says this is wrong. But with the examples posted so far, I think the method that you're interpreting leads to Assaults generally not making sense a good portion of the time, and I don't think it's a great leap in logic from there to question whether or not your interpretation is actually how things are supposed to go.

I haven't played a game of 6th yet, but when I do and if my method is totally wonky and doesn't work, I'll be sure to say so.

You are making a giant leap in logic because you are assuming any Initiative step other than the one you are currently in matters during the combat.

If, at I4, the marines can not move into base to base, or to within 2" of someone who is, the combat ends.

Each player only gets to make 1 Pile in move during the combat during the 10 initiative steps. The Space Marines are at I4, their captain at I5. The Ork Nob at I3, the Boyz at I2.

If, at any Initiative step where combatants get to make a pile in move, they can not reach (So, the captain killed enough Orks that the Marines can't make it into Base to base by moving 3") the combat ends, and the combat resolution part begins.

It explicitly states on page 23 that if nobody is in base to base after the pile in move at an initiative step, the combat ends.

Crazy, the way its written why cant we assume that initiative steps are only lost and combat would be over in the situation where a pile in involves both sides only? . I don't see why they would specifically write the blurb about 6 inches otherwise.

Crazyterran wrote:

god.ra wrote:So how you work out his:

So this is according to you allowed ???

Squad A I5
Squad B1 I3 with champion I4
Squad B2 I3

So Squad A gets charged by squad B1 and B2
I5 goes first, takes 1st raw from squad B1, then goes I4, he cant get into b2b (was at the back of the squad too far)…. then you would have to end the combat due to “all remaining initiative steps are lost” …. So what about squad B2 still being in 2b2 with Squad A????

Combat against Squad B1 would end. B2 would still get to attack, but B1 would not get to make a pile in at the I3 step, or make any further attacks. B2 would be allowed to swing back.

I'm sorry if you changed the rules half way through the argument, but you aren't allowed to do that in any form of debate. But this one post will humor you.

hehe unfortunately it says .... "all remaining initiative steps are lost, work out the assault results “
Need to be FAQed, truly I was expecting more from GW especially after releasing 8th edition WFB.
Conclusions:
I don’t have to be born in UK to live in UK

I'll play the way I think is the best for the game flow, not as per interpretation word by word….

I'am not changing rules half way through … the point with this multi units example is that they way you read this rule is not playable. Therefore you could consider other peoples view on this rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

It is very clear, when you actually read the rule in queston and not your changed version of it.

What you are doing is taking a parenthetical, which literally explains / expounds on a concept but cannot change it, and ignoring the word "Initiative step" and assuming they really meant "all init steps for the entire combat, even though you cannot possibly do that because you dont actually know what models have been removed from b2b yet"

Again I quoted everything a few posts ago sorry for not doing it again. But I am not assuming anything more you are assuming, it says "If both player's Pile In moves would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together" There is nothing in this sentence that says it is at this initiative step. You are assuming that. Same page it says (that's more than 6'' - very unlikely) since the sentence does not make any mention to being specific to only one step, I am interpreting it as RAW and need to be more than 6 inches away.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Where does it say that Pile In occurs at the start of the turn? It says that pile in occurs at each I step, and then again at the end of combat, if it is ongoing. Page and parag for you saying otherwise, as per the tenets of this forum

Page 23, Start of Initiative step pile in, only after that you do the rest of the things on your initiative step.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are also misunderstanding the side that has read the rules - you dont end at the point the marines have killed the Orks. You move to the I2 (for example) step, attempt pile in and THEN and ONLY THEN if you still cannot make b2b combat ends. Exactly as the rule tells you.

Seriously - you are ignoring the rule that tells you the remaining I steps are lost. You are ignoring the rule that state the pile in is for THE initiaitive step, not ALL init steps. If you didnt do all that the rule would be a lot clearer!

I agree with you at initiative 2 I have to try and recover b2b we agree. The disagreement is that "both players pile in moves (ie 6inches) can still bring us together so combat does not end. Anyway it still does not mean you are no longer locked in combat you still have to go and test.your leadership and fail that. Otherwise you just pile in 6 inches.

fixxxer76 wrote:Crazy, the way its written why cant we assume that initiative steps are only lost and combat would be over in the situation where a pile in involves both sides only? . I don't see why they would specifically write the blurb about 6 inches otherwise.

Because the sentence before that refers to how the controlling player piles in first. And that only matters if they both get to move at that initiative step. And, the very last sentence of that paragraph EXPLICITLY states, that, if no models are in base contact after the pile in move in that initiative step, the combat ends.

And the Paragraphs before that outline that only models with the initiative to move at that Initiative step (4, in our case) may move. So, the Space Marines are the only ones permitted to move. If they can not, somehow, make it the 3" forward into base to base, the combat is over.

However, if the marines are fighting Eldar, they are both going at the same Initiative. Therefore, they both move at the same initiative 4 step, and they in total go 6" towards each other.

Trust me, this will suck balls against Dark Eldar Wyches.

However, the situations that would cause this are exceedingly rare. It'll require terrible movement and positioning on both players parts. the chances of enough people being killed in one round, that the next initiative step, the marines can't make it the 3" after whomever's charge, the combat would end at the I4 step.

god.ra wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

god.ra wrote:So how you work out his:

So this is according to you allowed ???

Squad A I5
Squad B1 I3 with champion I4
Squad B2 I3

So Squad A gets charged by squad B1 and B2
I5 goes first, takes 1st raw from squad B1, then goes I4, he cant get into b2b (was at the back of the squad too far)…. then you would have to end the combat due to “all remaining initiative steps are lost” …. So what about squad B2 still being in 2b2 with Squad A????

Combat against Squad B1 would end. B2 would still get to attack, but B1 would not get to make a pile in at the I3 step, or make any further attacks. B2 would be allowed to swing back.

I'm sorry if you changed the rules half way through the argument, but you aren't allowed to do that in any form of debate. But this one post will humor you.

hehe unfortunately it says .... "all remaining initiative steps are lost, work out the assault results “
Need to be FAQed, truly I was expecting more from GW especially after releasing 8th edition WFB.
Conclusions:
I don’t have to be born in UK to live in UK

I'll play the way I think is the best for the game flow, not as per interpretation word by word….

I'am not changing rules half way through … the point with this multi units example is that they way you read this rule is not playable. Therefore you could consider other peoples view on this rule.

It doesn't need to be FAQ'd. Maybe for multiple combats it's more unclear, but your original example did not entail MULTIPLE combats. you CHANGED it half way through. As such, you changed the rules of the conversation half way through. And that, generally means you are trying to twist things to suit your own purposes, to make it effect SINGLE combats. Which is an intellectual fallacy, and usually indicates one loses the debate. That's how it goes.

Squad A I5
Squad B1 I3 with champion I4
Squad B2 I3

It is clear that in your example the combat is not over because at init 4 there are models in base contact--not init 4 models but that doesnt matter. The init 4 guy is too far to swing himself, but combat ends early only if no models from either side are in combat.

At first I thought this was glitchy, but since combat ends and then another pile in happens after combat resolution, it makes a lot more sense.

If you incorrectly claim that combat does not end when during an init step no models are in base contact, then the models that are not in base lose their attacks but still move forward to let their opponents hit them for free. This is not supported. It makes more sense that combat ends for that round, both sides pile in at the end, and next round (with both sides much closer) combat begins from the top again.

DevianID wrote:

Squad A I5
Squad B1 I3 with champion I4
Squad B2 I3

It is clear that in your example the combat is not over because at init 4 there are models in base contact--not init 4 models but that doesnt matter. The init 4 guy is too far to swing himself, but combat ends early only if no models from either side are in combat.

At first I thought this was glitchy, but since combat ends and then another pile in happens after combat resolution, it makes a lot more sense.

If you incorrectly claim that combat does not end when during an init step no models are in base contact, then the models that are not in base lose their attacks but still move forward to let their opponents hit them for free. This is not supported. It makes more sense that combat ends for that round, both sides pile in at the end, and next round (with both sides much closer) combat begins from the top again.

This, i was incorrect about the multiple combats part. After arguing Single Combats for a day and a half, it seems it messed me up a bit.

The rest of this is correct. In a single combat, if after any initiative step where models make a pile in move (so, 4) and no models are in base to base, the combat is over. The Orks don't then get to move 3" up and smack the Marines around for free because their captain happened to roll well. It doesn't work like that.

Crazyterran wrote:

fixxxer76 wrote:Crazy, the way its written why cant we assume that initiative steps are only lost and combat would be over in the situation where a pile in involves both sides only? . I don't see why they would specifically write the blurb about 6 inches otherwise.
It doesn't need to be FAQ'd. Maybe for multiple combats it's more unclear, but your original example did not entail MULTIPLE combats. you CHANGED it half way through. As such, you changed the rules of the conversation half way through. And that, generally means you are trying to twist things to suit your own purposes, to make it effect SINGLE combats. Which is an intellectual fallacy, and usually indicates one loses the debate. That's how it goes.

… the point with this multi units example is that they way you read this rule is not playable.

So if this rule (the way you read) does create confusions for multi units combat (as you admitted), therefore is not valid for my 1st example as there is only 1 RULE (the same) you have to use in both examples. Anyway, enough of this for today, I'm going to bed.

I think it helps clear confusion if you remember--the assault ends---but combat resolution must still occur.

It needs to be FAQ whoever is saying otherwise is basically ignoring the problem. We wouldn't be discussing it if the rules was clear.

It also does not need to involve multicharge. Squad of SM charges a unit with a nob with PK and boyz. Kill all the boyz at initiative 4 but only makes one wound on the nobz. The nobz is still in b2b but the boyz no longer are. At initiative 3 according to 3'' rule combat would end even if the nob at initiative 1 is still in b2b. If this is the case this is poor game design in my opinion.

Bacms wrote:It needs to be FAQ whoever is saying otherwise is basically ignoring the problem. We wouldn't be discussing it if the rules was clear.

It also does not need to involve multicharge. Squad of SM charges a unit with a nob with PK and boyz. Kill all the boyz at initiative 4 but only makes one wound on the nobz. The nobz is still in b2b but the boyz no longer are. At initiative 3 according to 3'' rule combat would end even if the nob at initiative 1 is still in b2b. If this is the case this is poor game design in my opinion.

I'm probably missing something but, I would assume the combat goes;

I4 Space Marines Charge a unit of 5 boyz led by a Nob
I10 step (nothing)
I9 step (nothing)
I8 step (nothing)
I7 step (nothing)
I6 step (nothing)
I5 step (nothing)
I4 step---Any Space Marine not in base to base, immediately makes a 3" Pile In Move to advance to base to base. If he can't, he tries to move within 2" of another Space Marine.
I4 Attacks--resolve hits/wounds/saves---as all models are in base to base with this initiative step, the owning player (orks) may declare how he will allocate hits. He puts all 5 on the Boyz, fails all 5, leaving a lone Nob.
I3 step (nothing)
I2 step (nothing)
I1 step---As the Nob is already in base to base, he does not need to make a Pile In Move.
I1 Attacks---He hits and kills two marines. The Marine player only has two marines in base to base with the Nob, therefore they must die first.

Combat Resolution
The Ork player makes a great roll and the Nob passes Morale. Now both units make an additional 3" Pile In, starting with the player whose turn it is. The SM player moves his remaining marines 3", attempting to base to base the Nob.

god.ra wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

fixxxer76 wrote:Crazy, the way its written why cant we assume that initiative steps are only lost and combat would be over in the situation where a pile in involves both sides only? . I don't see why they would specifically write the blurb about 6 inches otherwise.
It doesn't need to be FAQ'd. Maybe for multiple combats it's more unclear, but your original example did not entail MULTIPLE combats. you CHANGED it half way through. As such, you changed the rules of the conversation half way through. And that, generally means you are trying to twist things to suit your own purposes, to make it effect SINGLE combats. Which is an intellectual fallacy, and usually indicates one loses the debate. That's how it goes.

… the point with this multi units example is that they way you read this rule is not playable.

So if this rule (the way you read) does create confusions for multi units combat (as you admitted), therefore is not valid for my 1st example as there is only 1 RULE (the same) you have to use in both examples. Anyway, enough of this for today, I'm going to bed.

Single Assaults are seperate. There's even a seperate subsection for multiple and single assaults.

Single Assaults are "If no models are in BtB after any initiative step where Pile In moves are made, the combat ends, and combat resolution occurs."

Multiple Assaults are the same, but, you take all units into account before doing this. So if the marines manage to, by some miracle, kill all models in base to base in a multi assault, and your nob (or what have you) can't make it into base to base, the combat would end. However, this happening is even lower than in a single assault, so...

So if either of the two squads (Squads B and C) are in Base to Base with Squad A, the combat continues. However, if enough of squads B and C are killed that, on the following initiative step, nobody can reach base to base (and neither squads are in base to base with squad A) the combat would end.

Example:

Squad A is a Marine Squad.

Squads B and C are Ork Mobs.

On the charge, the Marine Squad (for whatever reason) decides to multi assault both Squads B and C. Through very good rolling and a lot of luck, they manage to kill enough orks to no longer be in base to base with either.

The following Initiative step, I3, has the Ork player moving his non-Power Klaw'd nob forward. However, since he's playing a marine player, he kept the nob in the back, to reduce the chances of it being killed via shooting. He can not make it into base to base with any of the marines, and neither squad is in base to base. The combat ends at this point, and combat resolution occurs.

However, if either Squads B and C still have a model in base to base, regardless of if the nob can make it, the combat would continue to the Initiative 2 step, where the Ork Boyz get to pile in. If these are somehow not close enough (4" away) the combat ends, and combat resolution occurs.

Remember, Furious Charge no longer grants Initiative, so an Ork would never go at the same time as a Space Marine.

So yes, if either squad in a multi assault is still in base to base with the Marines, both squads would get to pile in.

Your original example, dealing with a single assault, if the Marine Captain (I5) killed enough Orks that, there are no orks within 3" of the basic Marines (I4), the combat would end and combat resolution would occur. The Space Marines would never lose their attacks, since they go faster than the Orks. If they can not make it into base to base, and no models are in base to base, the combat immediately ends and Combat Resolution occurs.

Bacms wrote:It needs to be FAQ whoever is saying otherwise is basically ignoring the problem. We wouldn't be discussing it if the rules was clear.

It also does not need to involve multicharge. Squad of SM charges a unit with a nob with PK and boyz. Kill all the boyz at initiative 4 but only makes one wound on the nobz. The nobz is still in b2b but the boyz no longer are. At initiative 3 according to 3'' rule combat would end even if the nob at initiative 1 is still in b2b. If this is the case this is poor game design in my opinion.

If all the boys are dead, they wouldn't be around, and as such, their initiative step is skipped, since they are all dead. If none of the Ork Boys (assuming there are some left) can make it to within 2 inches of the nob, or into base to base, they move as close to the nob as they can. The nob would get to make his strikes still, since he is in base to base.

The "Combat ends at the initiative X step" only occurs if no members of either party is in base to base after the initiative steps pile in move. So if a captain killed enough Orks that he's not in base to base, and none of the other marines (who move at the initiative 4 step) are, and after the marines 3" pile in move, nobody is STILL in base to base (including nobs, etc.) the combat is over.

So, what it requires is:

At any initiative step, anyone is more than 3" (6" if both of them share the same initiative) away from each other, and nobody is in base to base, the combat is over, and resolution occurs.

If any models are in base to base, the combat continues. If the boyz (in your example) can not make it into base to base or within 2" of the nob, they get as close to the nob as they can, and then their initiative step ends.

Bacms wrote:Again I quoted everything a few posts ago sorry for not doing it again. But I am not assuming anything more you are assuming, it says "If both player's Pile In moves would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together" There is nothing in this sentence that says it is at this initiative step. You are assuming that. Same page it says (that's more than 6'' - very unlikely) since the sentence does not make any mention to being specific to only one step, I am interpreting it as RAW and need to be more than 6 inches away.

"Start of Initiative Step Pile In"

Does this say "Start of every init step pile in"? Does it say "Start of multiple init steps"? No

That means it is talking about a single init step.

I am assuming absolutely nothing. I am simply reading the rule, which says it applies to a single step, and taking it from there.

In additon, you missed my point. A parenthetical statement cannot alter a sentnce, by definition (basic English there), just add explanation. This explanation works for the cases where both sides have equal I steps.

The ACTUAL rule is that you just have to not be in b2b for combat to end, at the end of the pile in for that init step

You cannot, in good faith, continue to argue while you are ignoring this very simple, very basic part of the rule. The rule is concerned with a single Init step. That is the context of the rule. Stop ignoring it.

Bacms wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Where does it say that Pile In occurs at the start of the turn? It says that pile in occurs at each I step, and then again at the end of combat, if it is ongoing. Page and parag for you saying otherwise, as per the tenets of this forum

Page 23, Start of Initiative step pile in, only after that you do the rest of the things on your initiative step.

Sigh. No, it does NOT say that "pile in occurs at the start of the turn", which is what you claimed.

Quote: "At the start of each initiative step....."

That cannot be the start of the turn, as it is part of the Fight sub phase, which is after the charge sub phase. So, again, you do not have a rules quote to back up your contention. Please retract it.

Bacms wrote:I agree with you at initiative 2 I have to try and recover b2b we agree. The disagreement is that "both players pile in moves (ie 6inches) can still bring us together so combat does not end. Anyway it still does not mean you are no longer locked in combat you still have to go and test.your leadership and fail that. Otherwise you just pile in 6 inches.

No, the disagreement is that you are ignoring the context of the rule.

Kaldor wrote:Page 23, first column, half way down (Initiative Step Pile In)

"If both player's Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that's more than 6" - very unlikely!), the assault come to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26".

So, let me break it down.

This is during "initiative step pile in" - so only talking about pile in moves made at that Initiative Step.

A squad of 5 Grey Hunters charge an Ork mob. They pile in, and kill the five Orks they are in base combat with at I4.
The Ork nob with big choppa is I3. He is more than 3" away from the nearest Grey Hunter.

Combat immediately ends.

Yes, you have it correct. Pile in is by model and per initiative step... very different from the way it used to be. We picked up three books at a midnight release, read them and played several test games this weekend. A great learning experience.

However, what you propose is going to be a rare situation from what I can imagine after playing our games...

A) Why is this Nob fighting with a Big Choppa anyway? Mine always have a Power Claw, I1! OK... had to say that, and I get your point...

B) That Nob was in a unit that was locked in combat, I'm presuming he was not engaged (within 2" of an engaged model) otherwise, if the Grey Hunters didn't challenge, the Nob could have if there was a character in the Grey Hunter squad. This would have got him to grips.

C) If the Nob wasn't engaged when the Grey Hunter's charged, it means there's a crap load of boys in that squad which caused him to be so far back... he's fearless. You win, the assault's over. Next turn, the boys are going to shoot then assault... the 5 Grey Hunters are dead.

I'm not sure there is a problem with any of this. Your scenerio requires a small unit charge a large unit. It requires the large unit to have a character with higher initiative (no power fist / axe) than the rest of the unit and it requires him to be so far away, that when charged and after over watch, he is not within 2" of the models you got in base to base with. It further requires the small charging unit to kill all models that were charged and in base to base. It's a pretty narrow and specific set of events. Moreover, even if it does happen, it means your charging unit is now in the open and the oponent gets to open up on that unit. <shrug>

Cheers,

I guess you just need to read all the pages before this. Following your scheme:

I'm probably missing something but, I would assume the combat goes;

I4 Space Marines Charge a unit of 29 boyz led by a Nob (ignoring the overwatch and the random charge for the theoretical discussion)
I10 step (nothing)
I9 step (nothing)
I8 step (nothing)
I7 step (nothing)
I6 step (nothing)
I5 step (nothing)
I4 step---Any Space Marine not in base to base, immediately makes a 3" Pile In Move to advance to base to base. If he can't, he tries to move within 2" of another Space Marine (5 ork boyz in the front row and on nobz are in b2b now).
I4 Attacks--resolve hits/wounds/saves---as all models are in base to base with this initiative step, the owning player (orks) may declare how he will allocate hits. He puts all 5 on the Boyz, fails all 5, leaving a lone Nob. (the other 24 are now more than 3inches away)
I3 step (nothing)
I2 step (nothing) boyz pile in, because they are more than 3 inches and cannot make it into b2b, combats ends and the remaining imitative steps are lost.
I1 step---Althoug the Nob is in base to base, his initiative step is ignored
Orks loose close combat and imagining they weren't fearless they would test for leadership and loose. End of combat.

This is what people are claiming it is clear from the rules. It still probably would never happen since we need to assume so many ifs but yeah this is what this topic is about

nosferatu1001 wrote:["Start of Initiative Step Pile In"

Does this say "Start of every init step pile in"? Does it say "Start of multiple init steps"? No

That means it is talking about a single init step.

I am assuming absolutely nothing. I am simply reading the rule, which says it applies to a single step, and taking it from there.

Just to weigh in... if it helps...

(pg. 23) Start of Initiative Step Pile In
"At the start of each Inititiative step, any model whos Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pil In move. A Pile in move is a 3" move that is performed in the following order..."

Bacms wrote:I guess you just need to read all the pages before this. Following your scheme:


2012/07/02 21:56:31 Subject: Re:Glitch in assault rules
Bacms wrote:
It needs to be FAQ whoever is saying otherwise is basically ignoring the problem. We wouldn't be discussing it if the rules was clear.

It also does not need to involve multicharge. Squad of SM charges a unit with a nob with PK and boyz. Kill all the boyz at initiative 4 but only makes one wound on the nobz. The nobz is still in b2b but the boyz no longer are. At initiative 3 according to 3'' rule combat would end even if the nob at initiative 1 is still in b2b. If this is the case this is poor game design in my opinion.



I'm probably missing something but, I would assume the combat goes;

I4 Space Marines Charge a unit of 29 boyz led by a Nob (ignoring the overwatch and the random charge foe the theoretical discussion)
I10 step (nothing)
I9 step (nothing)
I8 step (nothing)
I7 step (nothing)
I6 step (nothing)
I5 step (nothing)
I4 step---Any Space Marine not in base to base, immediately makes a 3" Pile In Move to advance to base to base. If he can't, he tries to move within 2" of another Space Marine (5 ork boyz in the front row and on nobz are in b2b now).
I4 Attacks--resolve hits/wounds/saves---as all models are in base to base with this initiative step, the owning player (orks) may declare how he will allocate hits. He puts all 5 on the Boyz, fails all 5, leaving a lone Nob. (the other 24 are now more than 3inches away)
I3 step (nothing)
I2 step (nothing) boyz pile in, because they are more than 3 inches and cannot make it into b2b, combats ends and the remaining imitative steps are lost.
I1 step---Althoug the Nob is in base to base, his initiative step is ignored
Orks loose close combat and imagining they weren't fearless they would test for leadership and loose. End of combat.

This is what people are claiming it is clear from the rules.

No, what we are claiming is:

I10 Step - nothing
I9 Step - nothing
I8 Step - nothing
I7 Step - nothing
I6 Step - nothing
I5 Step - The Space Marine Captain strikes. He rolls his attacks, and kills a lot of boys.
I4 Step - The Space Marine Squad are not in base to base with any Orks, nor is the Captain. After making their 3" pile in move, they still can not make it into base to base with any Orks. The Assault ends, and Combat Resolution occurs.
I3 Step - Skipped
I2 Step - Skipped
I1 Step - Skipped.


In your example:

I5 Step - the Captain kills a lot of boys. However, the Ork Nob is still in base to base, as is a few other boys.
I4 step - The Space Marines pile in, and kill a lot more boys. However, the nob makes his saves and still remains in base to base with a space marine.
I3 Step - nothing
I2 step - the Orks, being more than 3" away from the marines and more than 5" away from the nob, pile in. They do not get to make any attacks, only attempting to get as close as possible.
i1 Step - the Ork swings his power klaw, killing Space marines. This is the last step, and Combat resolution occurs.

Both ways are correct. the Nob would never lose his attacks, only any surviving boys, if they are somehow more than 3" away from the marines and 5" from the nob. The nob is part of the unit, and as such, any boys within 2" of him would get to make any attacks. They must try to reach Base To Base if possible. If they cannot, they try to reach 2" of the Nob. If they cannot, the just get as close as possible. The PK nob would *never* lose his attacks, as long as he is in Base to Base.

Except you need to make up rules. You can't do both as it contradicts what is written on the second case. If the boyz cannot reach into b2b the remaining steps are lost.

Bacms wrote:Except you need to make up rules. You can't do both as it contradicts what is written on the second case.

I haven't made up any rules. The Nob is still in base to base in example 2, and as such, gets his attacks. Even if the boys can't make it in, they move as close as possible to the nob/base to base, since they still have someone in base to base.

In example 1, nobody is in base to base. Even after the marines pile in move, nobody is in base to base. as such, combat resolution occurs.

Crazyterran wrote:

Bacms wrote:Except you need to make up rules. You can't do both as it contradicts what is written on the second case.

I haven't made up any rules. The Nob is still in base to base in example 2, and as such, gets his attacks. Even if the boys can't make it in, they move as close as possible to the nob/base to base, since they still have someone in base to base.

In example 1, nobody is in base to base. Even after the marines pile in move, nobody is in base to base. as such, combat resolution occurs.

Sorry you are right. Change my example to the nob is 1inch away rather than b2b. Since boyz can't make it nobz it is not allowed to try.

Bacms wrote:Except you need to make up rules. You can't do both as it contradicts what is written on the second case. If the boyz cannot reach into b2b the remaining steps are lost.

Just a small caveat, you would only need to be within 2" of the Nob during your Pile In to not break the chain in the rulebook. I suppose it might happen, if you had this;


X = Nob
O = Boyz
o = Unengaged Boyz


XOOOOOOOOOOOOOO oooo

The Orks suffer just enough casualties in HTH to kill all the boyz at one Initiative Step---but not The Nob. The Pile In Move is outside of 5". Then yes, in that very rare example, the book breaks. Something the INAT FAQ will need to address and players will need to clarify before they play.


Personally, I think the Paragraph of "If 6" is insufficient..." was inappropriately placed on the page--and was meant to be placed in the Determine Assault/Pile In Section.

Bacms wrote:Except you need to make up rules. You can't do both as it contradicts what is written on the second case. If the boyz cannot reach into b2b the remaining steps are lost.

Combat only ends if no models are engaged...

If you'd end an initiative step after a pile-in with no models engaged the combat is over. There's no silliness with I3 models being forced to skip their attacks and then I1 models sweeping in and power-fisting them to death uncontested.

- Marty Lund

Bacms wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

Bacms wrote:Except you need to make up rules. You can't do both as it contradicts what is written on the second case.

I haven't made up any rules. The Nob is still in base to base in example 2, and as such, gets his attacks. Even if the boys can't make it in, they move as close as possible to the nob/base to base, since they still have someone in base to base.

In example 1, nobody is in base to base. Even after the marines pile in move, nobody is in base to base. as such, combat resolution occurs.

Sorry you are right. Change my example to the nob is 1inch away rather than b2b. Since boyz can't make it nobz it is not allowed to try.

Yes, in this case, the Nob gets boned.

The explanation which makes sense with what is written looks like it denies the models who pile in first an attack. Otherwise the idea that it is very unlikely makes no sense at all.

Either way it's giving me a headache.

Bacms wrote:Except you need to make up rules. You can't do both as it contradicts what is written on the second case. If the boyz cannot reach into b2b the remaining steps are lost.

No rules are being made up except for the more than 6 inch rule, which doesn't exist. It's an example. An FAQ can't fix basic reading comprehension failure either. It appears that in this edition there will be those doomed to play on the short bus, it has been clearly explained by several people yet the argument persists.

I think AgeOfEgos' interpretation is correct: no more blows are struck, but you still do the combat resolution as normal.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Personally, I think the Paragraph of "If 6" is insufficient..." was inappropriately placed on the page--and was meant to be placed in the Determine Assault/Pile In Section.

I'm inclined to believe that, too, but then why the sentence about remaining initiative steps being lost? If it was the end of combat, that wouldn't matter, right?

But as has also been pointed out, the whole bit about "both pile-in moves" and "6 inches being unlikely" doesn't make a lot of sense in the context, either. I mean, clearly it's not that unlikely at all, is it? Whether it's a glitch, quirk, mistake, or intended mechanic, the requirement to activate it is only "kill all enemy models within 3 inches". All it takes is someone with a higher initiative doing a decent number of casualties to a spread-out enemy unit.

The "highly unlikely" statement would make a lot more sense if it was mentioned with the End of Combat pile-in (as AgeOfEgos said, and where similar things have been for the last couple editions), or if there was still a defender pile-in move at the beginning of combat, like there was in 5th. It makes me think this got garbled somewhere along the way through various playtest versions.

That leads me to believe that the OP (Kaldor) is right, in that:
1) That is how the wording reads,
2) That is not how it was intended to work, and
3) It is, therefore, a glitch.

- H8