Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Holdenstein wrote: The rule says if both players pile-ins- not one player, as it is being interpreted, and there is no mention of ending the assault when all models are out of B2B. I believe that it's there to save time moving models that will never be able to reach base to base and therefore get re-engaged in any remaining initiative steps. If you read the rule on its own, without running it into any sentences around it, it's the only logical conclusion.

Therefore I believe it is possible for low I models to exploit, although very difficult to do due to random charge length.

Arguments are going in circles. You either accept that pile-ins are done per initiative step or not. If you accept that they are then this wording is simple: It's initiative step 4, only the SM get a pile-in, therefore "Both player's pile-ins" is then: SM piles-in, the other does not (as they don't get one). If its the latter, then you are going to have a tough time getting RAW out of the rulebook to support your arguments unless a FAQ comes out to support it.

jms40k wrote:

Holdenstein wrote: The rule says if both players pile-ins- not one player, as it is being interpreted, and there is no mention of ending the assault when all models are out of B2B. I believe that it's there to save time moving models that will never be able to reach base to base and therefore get re-engaged in any remaining initiative steps. If you read the rule on its own, without running it into any sentences around it, it's the only logical conclusion.

Therefore I believe it is possible for low I models to exploit, although very difficult to do due to random charge length.

Arguments are going in circles. You either accept that pile-ins are done per initiative step or not. If you accept that they are then this wording is simple: It's initiative step 4, only the SM get a pile-in, therefore "Both player's pile-ins" is then: SM piles-in, the other does not (as they don't get one). If its the latter, then you are going to have a tough time getting RAW out of the rulebook to support your arguments unless a FAQ comes out to support it.

I'll agree to differ then- if you read it your way the bracketed section makes no sense whatsoever. Still with random charge lengths and the initial charge rules, which insist on getting as many models into combat as possible, it's going to be pretty rare and the chances of it actually coming up in one of my games before the FAQ is low.

EDIT- I'll certainly agree with you that the wording and positioning of the rule is ambiguous!

I have to agree with most in here -- the mentioning of 6"'s of pile ins is not rules in a sense of giving permissions, just color text and clarification. The only time you get to pile in is when the rules say you can and that's at the model's initiative step or after combat resolution. Nothing else in those rules give you permission to do so outside of that. Even inferring, one could say the color text is just reminding you to make both pile ins if possible before ending the combat and nothing more

I think many in here are maybe not familiar with older editions where it was quite possible to clear a killzone at higher initiatives and deny attacks of those with lower initiatives. I think that is exactly what they were trying to bring back. Which is a nice boost to a lot of units that got raped by all the other changes (stealers and wyches come to mind). It also makes those 6 point boyz seem all the more appropriately costed. All in my humble opinion.

jms40k wrote:

Holdenstein wrote: The rule says if both players pile-ins- not one player, as it is being interpreted, and there is no mention of ending the assault when all models are out of B2B. I believe that it's there to save time moving models that will never be able to reach base to base and therefore get re-engaged in any remaining initiative steps. If you read the rule on its own, without running it into any sentences around it, it's the only logical conclusion.

Therefore I believe it is possible for low I models to exploit, although very difficult to do due to random charge length.

Arguments are going in circles. You either accept that pile-ins are done per initiative step or not. If you accept that they are then this wording is simple: It's initiative step 4, only the SM get a pile-in, therefore "Both player's pile-ins" is then: SM piles-in, the other does not (as they don't get one). If its the latter, then you are going to have a tough time getting RAW out of the rulebook to support your arguments unless a FAQ comes out to support it.

Not sure if I get your argument. I have the rulebook with me at the moment so can finally give my opinion supported
So this is my take on this.
Once your charge (charge move) and get at least one model in b2b they are from now on locked in combat.
Then you can start the fight sub phase. The first it tells you is the initiative steps and specifically says "Work your way thorough the Initiatives models engaging in the combat" it also says to skip any that don't have models fighting in (Page 22).

Next step is the start of each initiative step where it says "At the start of each initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the current Initiative step. that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must take a pile in move"
Then it goes to say When making Pile in moves, the player whose turn it is move(s) his unit first. Which seems to be referring to only the case where they have both the same initiative. Then it goes and says "If both player's pile in moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that's more than 6'' - very unlikely), the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost.
Hence it specifically says that when and only when the models are more than 6'' away you can finish the assault and skip all the remaining initiative steps. You have no permission to do it at any other time.

This is also supported below on the Who can fight section by saying that you have to work out whether a unit that is locked in combat is also engaged. So it is clearly that being locked in combat does not require units to be engaged.

Finally you have the End of combat Pile in. That says "After the combat has been resolved, it can happen that some models from units that did not Fall back are not in base contact with an enemy must take a pile in move. Again units that have no models engaged in combat are not following back so have to pile in. So it is once more impossible only if they were more than 6inches away. Which is further reinforced with the consolidation that supports you are only able to do this if the end of combat pile in was insufficient to bring them together again.

So to conclude [b]Nowhere in the rulebook you are allowed to break out of close combat but not having models in b2b[/]. When does the rulebook allows a unit engaged in combat to break out of combat? If at a initiative step units are more than 6 inches away from each other. Or you made the unit fall back or you destroy an enemy unit. So you have no permission to end the combat otherwise. Yes it means that sometimes units may not strike back but they will keep locked in combat.
By the way you could already break from close combat in 5th if you ended up more than 6'' away. This is not a new restriction just more likely to happen now

Bacms wrote:

Next step is the start of each initiative step where it says "At the start of each initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the current Initiative step. that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must take a pile in move"
Then it goes to say When making Pile in moves, the player whose turn it is move(s) his unit first. Which seems to be referring to only the case where they have both the same initiative. Then it goes and says "If both player's pile in moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that's more than 6'' - very unlikely), the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost.
Hence it specifically says that when and only when the models are more than 6'' away you can finish the assault and skip all the remaining initiative steps. You have no permission to do it at any other time.

This is where you fail. It doesn't say it must be more than 6 inches. It implies that if at that iniative step both you and opponents have models move 3 inches each, however if you don't both have models in that I step it is 3 inches.

You are getting confused a bit.

Units are not engaged in combat, models are engaged in combat. They are engaged by either: 1.) Being in B2B contact or 2.) Being 2" from a friendly model that is in B2B.

It says that the player whose turn it is piles-in first, great. But still, only models in Initiative Step X get to move. If one player doesn't have any models at that Initiative Step then he/she doesn't move any models.

If at the end of this pile-in, there are no engaged models, the combat ends, all other initiative steps are discarded, and combat resolution takes place.

End of Combat is the only other time that ALL models that were in a unit involved in the combat can make pile-in moves. This is independent of Initiative Step.

tgf wrote:This is where you fail. It doesn't say it must be more than 6 inches. It implies that if at that iniative step both you and opponents have models move 3 inches each, however if you don't both have models in that I step it is 3 inches.

Ok got your argument now, although still don't agree with you. No where it says at that initiative step but it does says both players and more importantly it specifies this needs to be more than 6''.

jms40k wrote:You are getting confused a bit.

Units are not engaged in combat, models are engaged in combat. They are engaged by either: 1.) Being in B2B contact or 2.) Being 2" from a friendly model that is in B2B.

I am not confused what I am saying is that are two things, one is units locked in combat the other is models engaged.

jms40k wrote:
It says that the player whose turn it is piles-in first, great. But still, only models in Initiative Step X get to move. If one player doesn't have any models at that Initiative Step then he/she doesn't move any models.

If at the end of this pile-in, there are no engaged models, the combat ends, all other initiative steps are discarded, and combat resolution takes place.

Page number please? I can't find anywhere where it says that if at the end of a pile-in there is no engaged models the combat ends.

jms40k wrote:
End of Combat is the only other time that ALL models that were in a unit involved in the combat can make pile-in moves. This is independent of Initiative Step.

Bacms wrote:

tgf wrote:This is where you fail. It doesn't say it must be more than 6 inches. It implies that if at that iniative step both you and opponents have models move 3 inches each, however if you don't both have models in that I step it is 3 inches.

Ok got your argument now, although still don't agree with you. No where it says at that initiative step but it does says both players and more importantly it specifies this needs to be more than 6''.

It says that only models at that initiative step can do the pile-in moves... you reinforce that with your post.

jms40k wrote:You are getting confused a bit.

Units are not engaged in combat, models are engaged in combat. They are engaged by either: 1.) Being in B2B contact or 2.) Being 2" from a friendly model that is in B2B.

I am not confused what I am saying is that are two things, one is units locked in combat the other is models engaged.

jms40k wrote:
It says that the player whose turn it is piles-in first, great. But still, only models in Initiative Step X get to move. If one player doesn't have any models at that Initiative Step then he/she doesn't move any models.

If at the end of this pile-in, there are no engaged models, the combat ends, all other initiative steps are discarded, and combat resolution takes place.

Page number please? I can't find anywhere where it says that if at the end of a pile-in there is no engaged models the combat ends.

Really? It's right there under what you are referencing about both players piling-in...

jms40k wrote:
End of Combat is the only other time that ALL models that were in a unit involved in the combat can make pile-in moves. This is independent of Initiative Step.

Agree never said it was different. In fact this supports you don't break out of combat.

Except where it says that combat ends because your models are no longer engaged.

Bacms wrote:
So to conclude Nowhere in the rulebook you are allowed to break out of close combat but not having models in b2b. When does the rulebook allows a unit engaged in combat to break out of combat? If at a initiative step units are more than 6 inches away from each other. Or you made the unit fall back or you destroy an enemy unit. So you have no permission to end the combat otherwise. Yes it means that sometimes units may not strike back but they will keep locked in combat.
By the way you could already break from close combat in 5th if you ended up more than 6'' away. This is not a new restriction just more likely to happen now

Consider yourself Exalted, and I agree. Combat ends if and ONLY if all Pile in moves (including future Pile In moves in future Initiative Steps), including the Pile In move at the end of Assault would leave nobody in B2B contact. Models in this scenario would need to be over 6" away from each other. Should such a situation like this arise, combat ends immediately, preventing slower models from getting a 3" move during their I step and another 3" move during end of Assault Pile In.

Murrdox wrote:

Bacms wrote:
So to conclude Nowhere in the rulebook you are allowed to break out of close combat but not having models in b2b. When does the rulebook allows a unit engaged in combat to break out of combat? If at a initiative step units are more than 6 inches away from each other. Or you made the unit fall back or you destroy an enemy unit. So you have no permission to end the combat otherwise. Yes it means that sometimes units may not strike back but they will keep locked in combat.
By the way you could already break from close combat in 5th if you ended up more than 6'' away. This is not a new restriction just more likely to happen now

Consider yourself Exalted, and I agree. Combat ends if and ONLY if all Pile in moves (including future Pile In moves in future Initiative Steps), including the Pile In move at the end of Assault would leave nobody in B2B contact. Models in this scenario would need to be over 6" away from each other. Should such a situation like this arise, combat ends immediately, preventing slower models from getting a 3" move during their I step and another 3" move during end of Assault Pile In.

I don't know, except where it says that all remaining initiative steps are discarded and combat resolution takes place...

Murrdox wrote:

Bacms wrote:
So to conclude Nowhere in the rulebook you are allowed to break out of close combat but not having models in b2b. When does the rulebook allows a unit engaged in combat to break out of combat? If at a initiative step units are more than 6 inches away from each other. Or you made the unit fall back or you destroy an enemy unit. So you have no permission to end the combat otherwise. Yes it means that sometimes units may not strike back but they will keep locked in combat.
By the way you could already break from close combat in 5th if you ended up more than 6'' away. This is not a new restriction just more likely to happen now

Consider yourself Exalted, and I agree. Combat ends if and ONLY if all Pile in moves (including future Pile In moves in future Initiative Steps), including the Pile In move at the end of Assault would leave nobody in B2B contact. Models in this scenario would need to be over 6" away from each other. Should such a situation like this arise, combat ends immediately, preventing slower models from getting a 3" move during their I step and another 3" move during end of Assault Pile In.

Consensus does not make it correct, it just makes more of you wrong.

tgf wrote:
Consensus does not make it correct, it just makes more of you wrong.

So many southerners say that about the Civil War!

Seriously though, the line about "both players' pile in moves combined" does NOT say "both players' pile in moves during this initiative step" combined. But that is how you are reading it. If you read what the rule actually SAYS, (and I agree it could be phrased better) it says that during every Initiative Step, you figure out if all the pile-in moves for the rest of the combat are not going to bring anyone into B2B. If this is the case, then end combat without completing the rest of the initiative steps.

you are correct but it is under the pile in iniative heading, the entire sequecne of events that is repeated for each iniative step. You do not pile in with models from other iniative steps. At the end of the iniative pile in the check for end of combat happens. There is no all other pile in figuring anywhere in the rules.

Murrdox wrote:

tgf wrote:
Consensus does not make it correct, it just makes more of you wrong.

So many southerners say that about the Civil War!

Seriously though, the line about "both players' pile in moves combined" does NOT say "both players' pile in moves during this initiative step" combined. But that is how you are reading it. If you read what the rule actually SAYS, (and I agree it could be phrased better) it says that during every Initiative Step, you figure out if all the pile-in moves for the rest of the combat are not going to bring anyone into B2B. If this is the case, then end combat without completing the rest of the initiative steps.

So you are suggesting that we calculate how many models will die at each initiative step, and if that calculation works, and we disregard random happenstance, so that no model will be able to B2B for the entirety of the rest of combat, then the combat ends? Weird, because that means those models wouldn't have died and the combat would then continue....

Or, we can read the entire rule which says to discard all remaining initiative steps (and therefore future pile-in moves) and end combat.

Either way, this argument is going in circles. I suggest you talk it over with whomever you are going to be playing with and roll-off if you can't come to consensus.

jms40k wrote:
So you are suggesting that we calculate how many models will die at each initiative step, and if that calculation works, and we disregard random happenstance, so that no model will be able to B2B for the entirety of the rest of combat, then the combat ends? Weird, because that means those models wouldn't have died and the combat would then continue....

Uhhh, no that's not what I'm suggesting at all. If casualties are taking place, obviously models are still engaged, and combat is raging on. There's no need to calculate how many models will be in B2B for the rest of combat. If there is a large gap in the combatants during an Initiative step though, you can quickly measure to see if they are far enough apart that all future Pile In moves will still bring nobody into B2B for the rest of the combat. If that is the case, combat ends.

In other words, You have models at Initiative 10 and 5 and 1. I have models at Initiative 2 and 1.

You go first with your Initiative 10 model, and kill enough of my Initiative 2 models that now nobody is in B2B. There are 4 inches between our models.

You go again with your Initiative 5 models. You try to pile in, but can't get in B2B. We measure future pile in moves though, and my Initiative 2 and 1 models WILL make it to B2B, so combat doesn't end. You Pile In 3" towards my models.

I go at Initiative 2. I Pile In with all my I2 models and attack. I kill enough of your models AGAIN so that nobody is in B2B. Our 5I and 2I models are 2 inches apart.

We both go simultaneously at I1. However, we've both buried our Powerfist units deep, and they're more than 3 inches away from the front lines, and can't get into B2B. Nothing happens. We test though, and our models are only 1 inch away at this point. We still have the Pile In move at the end of combat, so combat doesn't end.

We both Pile In 3" at the end of combat, and now everyone left is in B2B.

***

The alternative scenario is one proposed earlier. An Avatar charges a conga line of Grots, and kills 5 of them. When the Grots go at their Initiative, they are 10 inches away from combat. We can test and see how close they could get to each other. The Grots would move 3", and then 3" at the end of combat. The Avatar would move 3" at the end of combat. This would mean they'd still be an inch apart, so combat would end.

As you can see, this means things would need to be pretty far away to not pile in towards combat.

If we read the rule as you've interpreted it, my first example would have ended combat twice, and flies in the face of conventional wisdom about how the game works. It always has been extremely difficult in 40k or Fantasy for battles to simply "end" with no resolution. I find it highly unlikely they would write the rules in such a way to make that such a relatively easy thing to happen.

I agree the rule could be worded better, but I think you're interpreting it wrong.

Right, please stop ignoring context

You are taking a rule that takes place AT AN INIT STEP and applying it to every I step.

That breaks the rules

Page 22 tells you to work through the steps. The more specific rule states that, IF no models are in b2b when you complete the I STEP pile in, combat ends *and remaining I steps are lost*

For the anti-side, you are now forced to ignore 2 rules:

1) The rule that states I step pile ins are done, you know, at each I step. THat heading is a clue.

2) That remaining I steps are lost if models are no longer in B2B

Feel free to play this the old 5th edition way, but that is a house rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Right, please stop ignoring context

You are taking a rule that takes place AT AN INIT STEP and applying it to every I step.

That breaks the rules

No, I'm simply interpreting that the word "combined" in the phrase "If both players' Pile In moves combined" means both players Pile In moves combined for the entire combat.

You are interpreting "both players' Pile In moves combined" to be "both players Pile In moves for this initiative step".

Note that using your interpretation, the word "combined" isn't necessary. The rule could simply read "both players' pile in moves". The word "combined" must be there with a purpose, and I think it is.

Personally, I think the word "combined" lends itself well to my interpretation. All Pile In moves combined by both players for the whole combat. Additionally, the presence of the word "combined" makes no sense in the context of an Initiative Step with only one player acting. If you interpret the rule my way, then the word "combined" does make sense. On top of that, I think it's been shown by both myself and others that less weird combat scenarios emerge when you interpret the rule this way.

You test for it every Initiative Step, but each time you test for it, you take the entirety of the remaining Pile In moves (combined!) into account.

...combined just means to add together both player's pile-in moves for that initiative step. Sure, it's a bit redundant, but as this is a paragraph under "Initiative Step Pile-In" interpreting it to mean every other initiative step's pile-in as well is a huge stretch.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Right, please stop ignoring context

You are taking a rule that takes place AT AN INIT STEP and applying it to every I step.

That breaks the rules

Page 22 tells you to work through the steps. The more specific rule states that, IF no models are in b2b when you complete the I STEP pile in, combat ends *and remaining I steps are lost*

For the anti-side, you are now forced to ignore 2 rules:

1) The rule that states I step pile ins are done, you know, at each I step. THat heading is a clue.

2) That remaining I steps are lost if models are no longer in B2B

Feel free to play this the old 5th edition way, but that is a house rule.

This discussions will only ends up when we get clarification from GW (as we where going about KFF last year btw I was right about it ), anyway, called as you want, but I am going to play as I stated previously, just to avoid this kind of situations:

"Squad A with I5, gets charged by squad B with I3 with attached Character I4.
Now, we start in 2b2, you go first I5, killing front raw, so we are not in b2b, then is I4 character, moving 3" but not enough to get him in to 2b2 ( was at the back of the squad) now I wont end up the round of CC because squad B models are just 1" away from squad A and they must have a go at I3.
The book stated that this kind of occasion is very unlikely! And only way to be like that (unlikely!) is when "that’s more than 6".... imagine how many times you would have to end up the CC, just because your Champ with higher I, is stuck in middle of the squad or at the end … that would be nonsense non sense.

Also let use your example in mult units combat:

Squad A I5
Squad B1 I3 with champion I4
Squad B2 I3

So Squad A gets charged by squad B1 and B2
I5 goes first, takes 1st raw from squad B1, then goes I4, he cant get into b2b (was at the back of the squd)…. then you would have to end the combat due to “all remaining initiative steps are lost” …. So what about squad B2 still being in 2b2 with Squad A???? Non sense

man you guys are persistant about taking an example where both sides are in the same iniative and holding it up as a rule. Its dilusional and counter to every other thing writen.

So Squad A gets charged by squad B1 and B2
I5 goes first, takes 1st raw from squad B1, then goes I4, he cant get into b2b (was at the back of the squd)…. then you would have to end the combat due to “all remaining initiative steps are lost” …. So what about squad B2 still being in 2b2 with Squad A???? Non sense

The I4 guy would still get to attack as long as there was any friendly model (from either B1 or B2) still in base to base with enemy A and he was within 2" of them. Please read the who can fight section for details.

This 'glitch' only occurs when after a pile in at a particular initiative stepthere's NO friendlies in base to base. I think people are really getting confused here and thinking you need a model at that lower I in base to base to attack. That is not the case at all.

god.ra wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
THE 5TH PARAGRAPH DOWN, THE LAST TWO SENTENCES:

"If both players' Pile in Moves" those who are piling in at the INITIATIVE 4 STEP "combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26."

Crazyterran was I offending you? Don’t think so, I demand apologises ….

That'll be a cold day in hell, since you are still arguing an incorrect argument.

I'm sorry if it offends your senses that the Orks would lose their attacks because they charged like an idiot, but, that's how it goes.

Each Initiative Step is completely separate from another. If your initiative is equal to the current initiative step, ONLY THEN do you get to move. The part in parentheses is not a rule, it's trying to clarify (unfortunately, it failed.) So, if the Captain kills a sufficient number of Orks to bring any other marine more than 3" away, even after the charge, the combat is over, and combat resolution occurs, as state on page 23.

Page 23 to Page 26, paragraph 4, is all about ONE initiative step. It's not about the combat as a whole, it details how to fight each initiative step. So, if Assault Marines who Hammer of wrath'd managed to kill off enough Orks that they wouldn't beable to reach base to base in the I4 step, the combat ends and the Assault Marines get their clock cleaned by shooting / a charge next turn.

The parentheses are about that, if Eldar and Marines are fighting, as in the Diagram, that if both people move 3" forward (since both fight at I4) and it's still insufficient (and the book is right, 6" towards eachother is going to be rare, since both are permitted to move at this initiative step) the combat ends. However, in your example, Marines are fighting Orks. Orks are at I 2 / 3. The Marines are I 4 / 5.

Captain swings, and manages to kill off 5 Orks. These 5 Orks must come from the closest to the Captain, including base to base.

The Marines make their Pile in Move, and there is no Orks within 3". If there are no Orks within 3", you follow the 6th Paragraph on page 23, and the last sentence states that, "All remaining initiative steps are lost". Since the Marines, during the initiative 4 step, could not reach any enemies, and no models are in Base to Base, the combat is over.


What you all seem to be doing is taking something in parentheses, which are not part of the official rules, and exploding it to epic proportions.

Wow OK, I think we need to take a break from this topic and calm down.

jms40k wrote:...combined just means to add together both player's pile-in moves for that initiative step. Sure, it's a bit redundant, but as this is a paragraph under "Initiative Step Pile-In" interpreting it to mean every other initiative step's pile-in as well is a huge stretch.

"combined" isn't redundant for the case it's intended for.

You're starting the I4 initiative step and you have Green Marine A five inches away from his enemy, Blue Marine B. A & B can't get into base contact using their own pile in moves.
A tries to pile in 3", he can't reach B. B tries to pile in 3", he can't reach A. But only by combining their pile in moves do A & B make contact.

It's the same mess that measuring pile in moves has always been--You can't move if you can't make it, so you can't pile in to empty ground, but you can pile in to where your opponent can meet you.

Murrdox wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Right, please stop ignoring context

You are taking a rule that takes place AT AN INIT STEP and applying it to every I step.

That breaks the rules

No, I'm simply interpreting that the word "combined" in the phrase "If both players' Pile In moves combined" means both players Pile In moves combined for the entire combat.

....with absolutely no rules justification whatsoever to do so. The CONTEXT of the ENTIRE RULE is that initiative step

Think about it for a minute: the phrase "Start of Initiative Step Pile In" means you are only considering that init step. Just stop, and read what that rule is telling you - is it saying "start of every initiaitve step pile in that combat"? No. It is a phrase about a singular, discrete step.

Murrdox wrote:You are interpreting "both players' Pile In moves combined" to be "both players Pile In moves for this initiative step".

Yes, because that is what the heading tells us the time-context of the entire rule is - that initiative step.

Murrdox wrote:Note that using your interpretation, the word "combined" isn't necessary. The rule could simply read "both players' pile in moves". The word "combined" must be there with a purpose, and I think it is.

If you both have I4 models to move, the total pile in is the combined pile in of each player. Note that this gives a purpose to the word combined without requiring rule-less leaps such as ignoring the context of the entire rule.

Murrdox wrote:Personally, I think the word "combined" lends itself well to my interpretation. All Pile In moves combined by both players for the whole combat.

No, because your interpretation requires you to ignore the rules. Which is a very, very bad argument.

Murrdox wrote: Additionally, the presence of the word "combined" makes no sense in the context of an Initiative Step with only one player acting.

The rules are written to apply generally. They make sense a lot of the time, and still makes sense when only one player is an active participant - the combined pile in is 3" + 0' in that case.

Murrdox wrote:If you interpret the rule my way, then the word "combined" does make sense. On top of that, I think it's been shown by both myself and others that less weird combat scenarios emerge when you interpret the rule this way.

It makes sense my way, which has the benefit of also following the rules as a whole.

As for "less weird" - entirely, 100% irrelevant. These situations are also quite rare, either way.

Murrdox wrote:You test for it every Initiative Step, but each time you test for it, you take the entirety of the remaining Pile In moves (combined!) into account.

Except you CANNOT DO THAT, as you DONT KNOW HOW COMBAT WILL WORK OUT. It is literally impossible for you to know how the rest of the I steps will go, because the game is full of random chance.

I could kill 10 models, or none

So please, for once - stop ignoring rules.

Crazyterran wrote:
Captain swings, and manages to kill off 5 Orks. These 5 Orks must come from the closest to the Captain, including base to base.

The Marines make their Pile in Move, and there is no Orks within 3". If there are no Orks within 3", you follow the 6th Paragraph on page 23, and the last sentence states that, "All remaining initiative steps are lost". Since the Marines, during the initiative 4 step, could not reach any enemies, and no models are in Base to Base, the combat is over.


What you all seem to be doing is taking something in parentheses, which are not part of the official rules, and exploding it to epic proportions.

It states "all remaining initiative steps are lost---work out the assault result as described on page 26". So in your scenario, the Orks would need to make a test at a -5---they are fearless, so automatically pass. Then you do the End of Combat Pile in (based on whomever's turn it is). So that's another 3" for the SM and another 3" for the Orks, which would lock them in combat.

solkan wrote:

jms40k wrote:...combined just means to add together both player's pile-in moves for that initiative step. Sure, it's a bit redundant, but as this is a paragraph under "Initiative Step Pile-In" interpreting it to mean every other initiative step's pile-in as well is a huge stretch.

"combined" isn't redundant for the case it's intended for.

You're starting the I4 initiative step and you have Green Marine A five inches away from his enemy, Blue Marine B. A & B can't get into base contact using their own pile in moves.
A tries to pile in 3", he can't reach B. B tries to pile in 3", he can't reach A. But only by combining their pile in moves do A & B make contact.

It's the same mess that measuring pile in moves has always been--You can't move if you can't make it, so you can't pile in to empty ground, but you can pile in to where your opponent can meet you.

Such is the case for Marines, who are at the same initiative.

For things with differing initiative, like, Orks and Marines - only the Marines would get to pile in 3" at the Initiative 4 Step. If the marines can not make it the 3" into base to base with any of the orks, the combat is over.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
Captain swings, and manages to kill off 5 Orks. These 5 Orks must come from the closest to the Captain, including base to base.

The Marines make their Pile in Move, and there is no Orks within 3". If there are no Orks within 3", you follow the 6th Paragraph on page 23, and the last sentence states that, "All remaining initiative steps are lost". Since the Marines, during the initiative 4 step, could not reach any enemies, and no models are in Base to Base, the combat is over.


What you all seem to be doing is taking something in parentheses, which are not part of the official rules, and exploding it to epic proportions.

It states "all remaining initiative steps are lost---work out the assault result as described on page 26". So in your scenario, the Orks would need to make a test at a -5---they are fearless, so automatically pass. Then you do the End of Combat Pile in (based on whomever's turn it is). So that's another 3" for the SM and another 3" for the Orks, which would lock them in combat.

Yes, that's right. The Orks would not get to make any attacks back, but both of them would move together if the Orks passed their leadership test (which they would, if they have more than 10 boys left)

I am not saying I am right or wrong. I am trying to discuss something for which my interpretation is different from yours. You are saying you are right I am saying that the way it is written it is not clear and I have a different interpretation. That is what YMDC is for. The problem I have with your interpretation is that it says that pile in moves that place at the beginning of the turn, not at the end. So a SM squad kills orks and it is no longer in b2b, you have to play the next initiative step always. So the combat does not end if at the end of the turn you are no longer in base contact. There is no place in the rules that allows you to do this even if you assume that both players pile is only referring to the current initiative step.

So how you work out his:

So this is according to you allowed ???

Squad A I5
Squad B1 I3 with champion I4
Squad B2 I3

So Squad A gets charged by squad B1 and B2
I5 goes first, takes 1st raw from squad B1, then goes I4, he cant get into b2b (was at the back of the squad too far)…. then you would have to end the combat due to “all remaining initiative steps are lost” …. So what about squad B2 still being in 2b2 with Squad A????

Anyway, I am taking break from this, getting offended by some Canadians.

god.ra wrote:So how you work out his:

So this is according to you allowed ???

Squad A I5
Squad B1 I3 with champion I4
Squad B2 I3

So Squad A gets charged by squad B1 and B2
I5 goes first, takes 1st raw from squad B1, then goes I4, he cant get into b2b (was at the back of the squad too far)…. then you would have to end the combat due to “all remaining initiative steps are lost” …. So what about squad B2 still being in 2b2 with Squad A????

Combat against Squad B1 would end. B2 would still get to attack, but B1 would not get to make a pile in at the I3 step, or make any further attacks. B2 would be allowed to swing back.

I'm sorry if you changed the rules half way through the argument, but you aren't allowed to do that in any form of debate. But this one post will humor you.

Bacms wrote:I am not saying I am right or wrong. I am trying to discuss something for which my interpretation is different from yours. You are saying you are right I am saying that the way it is written it is not clear and I have a different interpretation. That is what YMDC is for. The problem I have with your interpretation is that it says that pile in moves that place at the beginning of the turn, not at the end. So a SM squad kills orks and it is no longer in b2b, you have to play the next initiative step always. So the combat does not end if at the end of the turn you are no longer in base contact. There is no place in the rules that allows you to do this even if you assume that both players pile is only referring to the current initiative step.

If the Marine Captain, at I5, kills enough orks that the Marines at I4, move 3" and can not get into base to base, the combat is over.

If the marines at I4 make enough kills, assuming they make it in, that the Nob (if he has no Klaw) at I3 can not make it into Base to Base, the combat is over.

If the (Clawless) Nob at I3 kills enough Marines that his boys can't make it 3" at the I2 step to make it into base to base with any Marines, the combat is over.

If, at the I1 Step, the boys crumped enough Marines that the Klaw nob, at I1, can't move 3" and make it into base to base (or within 2" of a model in Base to base), the combat is over