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kmdl1066 wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote: If at the end of the final initiative step that we work through (say initiative 5 from the striking scorpion example) there is no way a unit can reach, then we skip the remaining initiative steps.

But there are no initiative steps to skip if you've worked through everyone's initiative step!

Also, it tells you in the instructions for a SINGLE initiative step that if there is no contact after combined pile in moves (ie. both players models acting in that SINGLE initiative step, so you have models on both sides with the same initiative) that the assault comes to an end.

I repeat, these are the instructions for a SINGLE initiative step. If you don't evaluate it this way you get my example where models at a higher initiative don't get any attacks and then models at a lower initiative step do get attacks.

You haven't worked through everyone's initiative step though. We'll use the ork example already given, and go with your view point. Grey hunters at I4 kill the orks, I3 the nob goes. You say combat ends, but you did not work through everyone's initiative step, you're forgetting about the boyz in the mob at I2.

I think you're a little mixed up on the next part. It tells you how to work out the pile in moves of an initiative step, it does not say that it is only for a single initiative step. If it was meant to be only for a single initiative step the rules would tell us to continue on doing this at every initiative step if it was for a single initiative step. The rules are for 10 identical start of initiative step pile in, not for a single step, to prove that read the first sentence of the rules section, At the start of each initiative step... This is NOT the rules for a single initiative step, it is rules for every initiative step which use an identical rules set to work through. Since the boyz are part of the combat (look at the rule I pointed out in initiative steps, they are engaged in the combat, and we end with the lowest initiative of models in the combat; In this case it is NOT the nob at I3 it is the boyz at I2) they must get their initiative step in the combat. When their initiative step comes up they make their pile in movements like everyone else in the combat.

Answer this question. Are the boyz in Kaldor's original example engaged in the combat at the start of the fight sub-phase? If the answer is Yes, they MUST have their initiative step. If the answer is no, then they do not get their initiative step. Remember we determine if a unit is engaged in combat during the charge sub-phase, the way we determine this is if the charge was successful.

While this seems a little odd, and I'm not sure it was exactly what they intended, it does make a certain kind of sense from the more 'cinematic' angle of the game... To take your previous example of the Space Marine Captain who kills so many orcs that the assault ends and they charge him back next turn, consider the following:

The orcs were completely unprepared for the ferocity of the Space Marine assault - their Captain in particular was a fiend, wading through the melee and leaving nothing but broken bodies in his wake. When a lull hit in the fighting, the orcs looked out across the now-open ground that their mates had charged across to see their power armored foes covered in gore. The boyz began to smash the ground with renewed fervor - if de humies wantz a fight, den dey getz a fight! The orcs redouble their fury, and charge across the blood-soaked plain.

I'm not necessarily saying it's perfectly balanced, and I think the exact timing of the whole 'Initiative Step' thing needs to be addressed, but it could conceivably produce a lot of fun situations. Powerful characters are going to feel powerful, able to beat the enemy so hard they fall away from him in defeat (remember, when the assault ends, the orcs still lost the combat resolution!).

I got to say, the entire confusion here seems to be whether or not the "determine if combat must end" bit has to happen at every initiative step, and I don't think it does. I think the rules reference all of both players Pile In moves, meaning not all Pile In moves at a given step but all the moves at all the steps, implying every model gets to try and move closer.

As to it being redundantly worded because "if you run through every initiative step, why would it say remaining steps are lost?" that is incorrect. It says earlier that in a given round of combat you run through all ten steps, regardless as to if there are actually any models at that step. Thus, in combat between Space Marines and Ork Boyz, if, after both pile in, they are not in range combat ends and initiative step 1 is lost (even though nothing would have happened there anyway, it's mentioned because normally you'd run through that step).

the problem with that is still that at init 4, with 3 inches, the marines can't make combat so can't attack, but then at init 2 the orks move 3 into combat and can fight the marines who lost the ability to swing this round.

It does make more sense in this fashion that the combat ends early for the marines and orks combined, instead of the marines getting skipped.

DevianID wrote:the problem with that is still that at init 4, with 3 inches, the marines can't make combat so can't attack, but then at init 2 the orks move 3 into combat and can fight the marines who lost the ability to swing this round.

It does make more sense in this fashion that the combat ends early for the marines and orks combined, instead of the marines getting skipped.

Well, as to the marines missing the chance to attack but the Boyz piling in and getting to swing, this actually makes sense to me. It'll only happen when the marines player positions himself poorly (whether or not he had a choice) repressing the rules fairly and even the fluff, since the marines made the mistake of over-extending themselves and now have to pay the price.

No, it happens when the captain kills a lot of boyz. If the capt did a worse job, he would be better off.


The rules talk about 'at the start of each initiative step' and goes through the process for each step. That is singular, this is the process for *a* step.

It says that if you can't get into base, the combat stops.

What logic says that you then continue combat to the next step??

It even goes on to say that all following steps are lost. If you keep going to other steps, then they are not lost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tarkand wrote:

coredump wrote:

(More seriously, in another thread, it was brought up to hide the nob in the middle to avoid challenges. Now we see one drawback to that.

I'm not sure it's a drawback.

The orks get to charge with their furious charge next turn now, instead of getting stuck in at S3.

So, they wouldn't, they are still locked.

After the combat ends, you get combat resolution, then *another* pile in for each side. If they are still out of base, then they consolidate.

I read it as Coredump et al read it

At the start of "a" init step, you do the pile in. Both sides have the chance to pile in, satisfying the "both players combined" requirement - even if they have no models at that init.

how to abuse this rule, make congo line with your squads:

Red orks, black SM with lets say IC with I5



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I can see the combat ending scenario happening to a unit that is conga lined, or charged in the flank. Example 10 guardsmen are spread out over 20" to avoid templates. Something charges them in the flank, barely makes contact with the squad, and kills 8 guardsmen. Guardsman #9 & 10 are 18" and 20" away from the first guardsman. After all consolidations are done there is no way anybody is going to be in base to base.

god.ra wrote:how to abuse this rule, make congo line with your squads:

Red orks, black SM with lets say IC with I5



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Except that's not how it works. Space Marines would move up 3" in the I4 initiative step, and would not reach Base to Base with anyone. The combat would end in the I4 initiative step. Any Leadership tests that are required would be taken.

The Orks don't get to move or React until the I3 phase, and that's only if the Nob does not have a Klaw. Then it's the I2 phase.

So, essentially, the Captain would charge, and kill enough Orks that he would not be in B2B or have anyone around him. the Space Marines behind him, who are now no longer in base to base or have anyone within 3 Inches, do not move. Instead, the Combat Ends, the Space Marines Consolidate, and the Orks (if they are below 10) take a Leadership test.

Crazyterran wrote:

god.ra wrote:how to abuse this rule, make congo line with your squads:

Red orks, black SM with lets say IC with I5



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Except that's not how it works. Space Marines would move up 3" in the I4 initiative step, and would not reach Base to Base with anyone. The combat would end in the I4 initiative step. Any Leadership tests that are required would be taken.

The Orks don't get to move or React until the I3 phase, and that's only if the Nob does not have a Klaw. Then it's the I2 phase.

So, essentially, the Captain would charge, and kill enough Orks that he would not be in B2B or have anyone around him. the Space Marines behind him, who are now no longer in base to base or have anyone within 3 Inches, do not move. Instead, the Combat Ends, the Space Marines Consolidate, and the Orks (if they are below 10) take a Leadership test.

Except this is not what the rules are stating, again, you are getting confused about ending the close combat if the models are not in CC.
1. CC sub phase, work out from I10 to I1 with all pileins,
2. After that, work out again pile ins for models which are not in CC and then and ONLY then if you cant get models to CC (after moving 6" in) the combat is ended and the quads are not in cc, That is why in the book says ITS very RARE !

The book also says its rare to have units with mixed armour values. Oddly i dont put much stock into that.

You work through each I step and pile in ONLY at that I step.

god.ra wrote:

Except this is not what the rules are stating, again, you are getting confused about ending the close combat if the models are not in CC.
1. CC sub phase, work out from I10 to I1 with all pileins,
2. After that, work out again pile ins for models which are not in CC and then and ONLY then if you cant get models to CC (after moving 6" in) the combat is ended and the quads are not in cc, That is why in the book says ITS very RARE !

Start of Initiative Step Pile In:

"At the start of each Initiative step, any model whos Initiaive is EQUAL to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move. A Pile In move is a 3" move that is performed in the following Order: (3 steps)"

If their initiative is the same, they move in at the same time. However, Orks are Initiative 2, and as such, would not make a pile in move until that step (the initiative 2 step). So, the Space Marines, unable to reach any Orks in the Initiative 4 step with their 3" move, cause the combat to end. The Orks take a Leadership test (assuming they aren't over 10 models) and the Space Marines Consolidate.

Remember, this is under at the "Start of Initiative step pile in". If the Marines can't reach B2B within that Pile In, the combat ends, as described in the rules. The part you are reading with the 6" is refering to something that happens if both players have models at the same initiative, which would mean both move 3" towards each other. It even says earlier in the paragraph "When making Pile In Moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first."

And, since we learned from the previous paragraphs, that, you only pile in on your initiative step.

I don't have the book with me at the moment since I am at work. But I believe the way it is worded the sentence where it says that all the remaining initiative steps would be lost only apply if at some initiative step the models are more than 6inches from each other. At least it is the only sentence that I remember when they explicit says the models are no longer engaged in combat.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The book also says its rare to have units with mixed armour values. Oddly i dont put much stock into that.

You work through each I step and pile in ONLY at that I step.

Agree, but my point was only about abusing this rules.

Also for clarification, the only one way to end the CC and not be engaged is if you go through all initiative steps with pile ins (initial one 3” ect) and all attacks (both sides), and then if after "final pile in" (work out with I steps again) still can get into CC then the squad are not classified as engaged.

god.ra wrote:how to abuse this rule, make congo line with your squads:

Red orks, black SM with lets say IC with I5



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The main problem with this tactic is it relies on rolling the exact (or very close) number with your charge distance. Not too little or you won't connect, and not too much so that the main portions of each unit contact each other. Overwatch and challenges make the situation even more complex. I can't see it being used successfully very often. I imagine that standard troops will want to be within 5" of a unit that they want to assault to ensure that they get there most of the time after Overwatch.

His diagram was wrong anyways, the Red Orks wouldn't get to pile in at I4 anyways.

And it only states that , in the rules under "Start of Initiative Step Pile In", that (minus the interrupt), "When making Pile In moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first. If both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring combatants back together, the assault comes to an end."

In the interrupt blurb, it states "(That's more than 6" - very unlikely!)"

However, this is taking into account that both units are making their pile in moves at the same initiative step, since earlier in that same paragraph the book states that when they are making pile in moves, the player whose turn it is goes first. And, they would only be going 'at the same time' during an Initiative step where both of the players are making their attacks at the same time.

So, in an Orks vs Marines example, if the Marines move up their 3" and cannot get into base to base, the combat is over, since the Orks do not get to make a pile in move during the Initiative 4 Initiative step.

Crazyterran wrote:

god.ra wrote:

Except this is not what the rules are stating, again, you are getting confused about ending the close combat if the models are not in CC.
1. CC sub phase, work out from I10 to I1 with all pileins,
2. After that, work out again pile ins for models which are not in CC and then and ONLY then if you cant get models to CC (after moving 6" in) the combat is ended and the quads are not in cc, That is why in the book says ITS very RARE !

Start of Initiative Step Pile In:

"At the start of each Initiative step, any model whos Initiaive is EQUAL to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move. A Pile In move is a 3" move that is performed in the following Order: (3 steps)"

If their initiative is the same, they move in at the same time. However, Orks are Initiative 2, and as such, would not make a pile in move until that step (the initiative 2 step). So, the Space Marines, unable to reach any Orks in the Initiative 4 step with their 3" move, cause the combat to end. The Orks take a Leadership test (assuming they aren't over 10 models) and the Space Marines Consolidate.

Remember, this is under at the "Start of Initiative step pile in". If the Marines can't reach B2B within that Pile In, the combat ends, as described in the rules. The part you are reading with the 6" is refering to something that happens if both players have models at the same initiative, which would mean both move 3" towards each other. It even says earlier in the paragraph "When making Pile In Moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first."

And, since we learned from the previous paragraphs, that, you only pile in on your initiative step.

Sorry, where it says, in the working out initial pile in that you have to end the combat if you can't reach enemy? The book is telling you that :
go through I10 to I1, THEN you have final pile in and only there in the book says that if after ALL final pile in (so you went through I10- I1 and pile in, did the attacks, removed the models from closest etc.) you still can’t get in to CC you end the combat, not engaged. Look, it eves says in the book that the 6" (3" per squad) should be enough to keep them in CC.

By your example you want to finish the CC in the middle of working out the I steps (I4 because Marines can’t get in to CC). There is no rule/ sentence telling you to do that.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crazyterran wrote:His diagram was wrong anyways, the Red Orks wouldn't get to pile in at I4 anyways.

And it only states that , in the rules under "Start of Initiative Step Pile In", that (minus the interrupt), "When making Pile In moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first. If both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring combatants back together, the assault comes to an end."

In the interrupt blurb, it states "(That's more than 6" - very unlikely!)"

However, this is taking into account that both units are making their pile in moves at the same initiative step, since earlier in that same paragraph the book states that when they are making pile in moves, the player whose turn it is goes first. And, they would only be going 'at the same time' during an Initiative step where both of the players are making their attacks at the same time.

So, in an Orks vs Marines example, if the Marines move up their 3" and cannot get into base to base, the combat is over, since the Orks do not get to make a pile in move during the Initiative 4 Initiative step.

Sorry orks are Black


Ok, using your example, you would never fight in CC if you charge through difficult terrain without grenades! as your initiative then is reduced to 1.
So Guards charging SM in cover, just one model is in Base to base, rest of the models are 2"-7" away, marines does pile in, kill 6 guards (first 6 models), now what? the guard are not in Base to base ? so you end the CC? does not make sense. You kill all guys in Base contacts therefore i cannot do my pile in and hit you back?

Correct is, we working out from I10 to I1, you kill my guards, no 1 is in CC then with I1 i do my moves (pile in) and hit you back and so on.

Please provide a page and para for this. Page 26 states you make a Pile In at each Init step - thats it.

@god.ra

On pages 22, 23 and, 26, it states that you work your way through each initiative step, from 10 to 1. Since. Each Initiative Pile in Occurs if Initiative = the Initiative Pile in step. So, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 are disregarded in your example.

at number 4, the Marines would pile in 3", and attack the guardsmen. They kill 6 models. That initiative step is over. Since the Guardsmen lost their Frag Grenades somewhere, Initiative steps 3 and 2 are disregarded as well, as no models are currently at that initiative. At initiative step one, if no Guardsmen can move up 3" and make it into base to base with any of the marines, the combat is over, and the Space Marines won by 6. Guardsmen take a Morale test. If they fail, the Marines may sweeping advance. If they pass, both pile in 3". if they somehow can not make it the 6" together, the combat is completely resolved. Otherwise, it continues on to the next turn.

The Marines get to sweeping if they fail due to the mention of checking combat results on page 26. Page 26 describes that, if at the end of the combat, the unit fails, the other may take a sweeping advance check. It does not mention anything about whether the models are in base to base for the Sweeping Advance to be performed, so the Guardsmen can still be swept if they fail their LD test.

SO yes, if the Guardsmen can not make it the 3" into close combat with the marines after the In 4 phase, the combat would be over. The Marines would not pile in during the In 1 phase, as none of their models strike at that point.

EDIT: This is not a glitch. This is intended for that if you congo line to get into an assault quicker, and get reamed in that opening round, you will be punished for it.

Crazyterran wrote:@god.ra

On pages 22, 23 and, 26, it states that you work your way through each initiative step, from 10 to 1. Since. Each Initiative Pile in Occurs if Initiative = the Initiative Pile in step. So, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 are disregarded in your example.

at number 4, the Marines would pile in 3", and attack the guardsmen. They kill 6 models. That initiative step is over. Since the Guardsmen lost their Frag Grenades somewhere, Initiative steps 3 and 2 are disregarded as well, as no models are currently at that initiative. At initiative step one, if no Guardsmen can move up 3" and make it into base to base with any of the marines, the combat is over, and the Space Marines won by 6. Guardsmen take a Morale test. If they fail, the Marines may sweeping advance. If they pass, both pile in 3". if they somehow can not make it the 6" together, the combat is completely resolved. Otherwise, it continues on to the next turn.

The Marines get to sweeping if they fail due to the mention of checking combat results on page 26. Page 26 describes that, if at the end of the combat, the unit fails, the other may take a sweeping advance check. It does not mention anything about whether the models are in base to base for the Sweeping Advance to be performed, so the Guardsmen can still be swept if they fail their LD test.

SO yes, if the Guardsmen can not make it the 3" into close combat with the marines after the In 4 phase, the combat would be over. The Marines would not pile in during the In 1 phase, as none of their models strike at that point.

EDIT: This is not a glitch. This is intended for that if you congo line to get into an assault quicker, and get reamed in that opening round, you will be punished for it.

Disagree, where it says that is in some point of working out the Initiative steps you can't get in to b2b the combat is over? Page nr, and sentence please.
It says, you working out form I10 to I1. Yes?
that is it. so if in I4 you cant get in base to base (because you killed lots of stuff with I5) you move to I3, if 3 can get in to, you move to I2 if 2 cant get go in to then 1. Then you do morale, and depending on outcome after that you do final pile in. and only then if you still cant get into b2b you classify this one as not engaged.
So going back to the 1 example, Commander kills 3 orks for the front with I5, then marines goes with I4, move 3" can get in to fight therefore losing the attacks (Page 26), then is time for I3 - no body, then I2 orks does pile in 3" and do their attacks, then is i1, lets says your sergeant with Power fist.

Make sense now?, book says ALL models goes, therefore if you can get in to b2b with your initiative 4 , other models have to do it with 3 or lower.
There is nowhere saying that the combat ends if in some point of working out the Initiative steps (and pile in) you can get in to 2b2. It only says after the combat (I10 - I1) and final pile in still can get in to 2b2 the squads are not engaged.
squads are not enguaged.

Page 23. It CLEARLY states that if the models cannot get into base to base at the end of the current in. step, if the models can't make it into base to base, the combat is over.

Under the START OF INITIATIVE STEP PILE IN(So 4, in our example)

THE 5TH PARAGRAPH DOWN, THE LAST TWO SENTENCES:

"If both players' Pile in Moves" those who are piling in at the INITIATIVE 4 STEP "combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26."

So, if at the INITIATIVE STEP 4, NOBODY IS IN BASE TO BASE, THE COMBAT IS OVER.

I can't state it any plainer than that. If you don't understand at this point, go back to school.

god.ra wrote:
Disagree, where it says that is in some point of working out the Initiative steps you can't get in to b2b the combat is over? Page nr, and sentence please.

Page 23 last paragraph under the section titled Start of Initiative STEP Pile in. Notice the word STEP. This is what you do for one step. If at the end of one one step '..would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together ..., the assault comes to an end."

Once again, we are given no instructions to first do all pile ins and the do all combats. We are told you work through the initiative steps from 10 down to one. And then we are told that at each initiative step we have Start of Initiative Step Pile In, Who Can Fight, Number of Attacks, Rolling to Hit, Rolling To Wound, Allocating Wounds. Every one of those is done before moving on to the next initiative step.

It clearly says on page 23 under the initiative step pile in "insufficient to bring any combatants back together ... the assault comes to an end. END people, it does say continue to next initiative step, this is what is known as an escape in a loop. The OP was 100% correct in his assessment. Those of you that continue to do next initiative steps are playing incorrectly, or using house rules. As other posters have said the 6" clause is only if both models are playing in the same I. Arguing counter to this very easy to understand language is a bit like claiming a dog is a bear because it has 4 legs and a tail.

Damn you kmd 1 minute faster than me damn you!!!!!

Don't yell at me when crazyterran ninja'd both of us!

I'm still not sure if this guy is serious or trolling.

oh man double owned :(

I guess we should look on the bright side at least three of us are up early morning on a monday looking at the rules...that's good right?

Crazyterran wrote:
THE 5TH PARAGRAPH DOWN, THE LAST TWO SENTENCES:

"If both players' Pile in Moves" those who are piling in at the INITIATIVE 4 STEP "combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26."

That only applies if both players move at the same initiative and they are more than 6inches away appart. it is clear from the rulebook that is the only way to end combat. If at any initiative step models are more than 6 inches the combats ends and the remaining initiative steps are lost. Making this work as something to be explored on the game on the other hand....not going to happen.

Crazyterran wrote:Page 23. It CLEARLY states that if the models cannot get into base to base at the end of the current in. step, if the models can't make it into base to base, the combat is over.

Under the START OF INITIATIVE STEP PILE IN(So 4, in our example)

THE 5TH PARAGRAPH DOWN, THE LAST TWO SENTENCES:

"If both players' Pile in Moves" those who are piling in at the INITIATIVE 4 STEP "combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26."

So, if at the INITIATIVE STEP 4, NOBODY IS IN BASE TO BASE, THE COMBAT IS OVER.

I can't state it any plainer than that. If you don't understand at this point, go back to school.

That's the entire issue! In the paragraph describing combat ending, as you say the fifth down, it doesn't say anywhere that you check during each I step. You're only assuming you do because there wasn't a new heading since the last one, which happened to be START OF INITIATIVE STEP PILE IN.

The thing is, you can't make that assumption. There are loads of rules that didn't get a heading. That doesn't mean they should fall under the previous one.

Bacms wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
THE 5TH PARAGRAPH DOWN, THE LAST TWO SENTENCES:

"If both players' Pile in Moves" those who are piling in at the INITIATIVE 4 STEP "combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26."

That only applies if both players move at the same initiative and they are more than 6inches away appart. it is clear from the rulebook that is the only way to end combat. If at any initiative step models are more than 6 inches the combats ends and the remaining initiative steps are lost. Making this work as something to be explored on the game on the other hand....not going to happen.

Exactly, otherwise you would have issues like:

"Marines charge Orks
I4 marines kill all orks in base contact.
I3 Nob is more than 3" from marines

Combat ends.... boyz don't get to move



large brood of stealers assaults some marines, the BroodLord is in the back.

At I7 the Blord moves forward, but is still not close enough to be engaged.... Combat ends??? "



Crazyterran was I offending you? Don’t think so, I demand apologises ….