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Purifier, you may not have noticed, but you're arguing with a guy who calls himself Kaldor. His avatar is that of a Grey Knight. Do you see an end to this argument where he suddenly agrees with you? We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

It's the whole immovable object/unstoppable logic force thing. He can't be moved, but that also means you can just walk away. Walls can't give chase.

Purifier wrote:
I feel like you have to draw the line somewhere, or you might as well also say they Worship Khorne for his boons in order to drive back the daemons. I draw my line before bathing in blood. It doesn't feel GK to me.

Just because something has blood in it doesn't mean Khorne. Khaine, for example, is also god of blood.

In fact, Khorne hates magic and despises spells, so what the GK did was very non-Khorne.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Purifier, you may not have noticed, but you're arguing with a guy who calls himself Kaldor. His avatar is that of a Grey Knight. Do you see an end to this argument where he suddenly agrees with you? We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

It's the whole immovable object/unstoppable logic force thing. He can't be moved, but that also means you can just walk away. Walls can't give chase.

You know what, you're right. I got a bit carried away and started frantically waving my dick around. I'll put it back where it belongs and calm down.

Purifier wrote:Did you read Kalashnikovs post? that pretty much wrapped it all up. The whole thing is written with nothing more than the mindset of "wouldn't it be awesome if they like just totally killed their allies?"
It's not material to anything else. It's not like I'm the only one that finds it wanting either. A lot of people find it silly and uncalled for.

I'm sorry, I'm just not getting it. How do you know what mindset it was written in? Besides, Grey Knights are notorious for killing their allies. They killed trillions of loyal Imperial citizens after the first war for Armageddon, and the codex makes mention of them killing their allies after the battle is done on multiple occasions.

So I ask again. Which part didn't you like? The fact that innocent blood could be used in a ward against the bloodtide? The fact that Sisters were used as the source of that innocent blood? And why didn't you like it?

Try and be specific.

No need. All of that would be unchanged. Again, just look at the Catholic church. There is nothing in the history of man that has had more in-fighting. Them being different parts of the same church means nothing more than that.

You need to brush up on your background material.

Kaldor wrote:So I ask again.

So you do.

Kaldor wrote:
Which part didn't you like? The fact that innocent blood could be used in a ward against the bloodtide?

Uh, this.

Any hardline inquisitor would be appalled by it. Which is why it's very unfluffy. Hardline inquisitor-types performing a dark sorcerous ritual to fight chaos.

Ward got a good rep from the company for his work on the LotR properties, where he only had to write rules and never got to touch the fluff. He also wrote the rules for all the armies. I will go out on a limb here and say that Ward does wright good rules, for the most part. His books tend to have multiple builds you can play, they generally age well, and they match up very well against each other. He gets raked over the coals for the Fantasy Daemons book, but that was a rush job, plus Gav's VC and DE books were far worse for destroying the integrity of the game. Now stack Ward's books against those of any other author, especially CRUDdace, and the wheels come off, rules wise.

Where Ward jumps the shark is when he is allowed to touch the fluff. They never should have let him touch anything after the vanilla marine book, where he arbitrarily changed things like randomly tossing in "Rogal Dorn croaked at some point" and every book that followed has been steadily worse. The Necron stuff makes me want to murder him in his sleep, for example. Plus I don't know why he feels the need to kill Sisters in progressively pointless and gruesome ways. Cruddace should be in charge of the fluff and Ward should write rules.

Ward deserves the hate he gets for randomly rewriting decades old fluff on a whim, but Cruddace is far worse with his crappy rules killing entire army lines in the company.

The point Purifier is trying to make is this.
Take example of this Grimdarkian, now I take it half of dakka will think its over board GRIM DARK FOR THE SAKE OF GRIMDARK.
While the other half will totally think its awesome etc etc, it's the mind set.
We all know Sisters can be left alone if GK just asked for their used tampons, but no, we have to do it the GRIM DARKER WAY.... ( idiot GKs )



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:

Purifier wrote:Did you read Kalashnikovs post? that pretty much wrapped it all up. The whole thing is written with nothing more than the mindset of "wouldn't it be awesome if they like just totally killed their allies?"
It's not material to anything else. It's not like I'm the only one that finds it wanting either. A lot of people find it silly and uncalled for.

I'm sorry, I'm just not getting it. How do you know what mindset it was written in? Besides, Grey Knights are notorious for killing their allies. They killed trillions of loyal Imperial citizens after the first war for Armageddon, and the codex makes mention of them killing their allies after the battle is done on multiple occasions.

So I ask again. Which part didn't you like? The fact that innocent blood could be used in a ward against the bloodtide? The fact that Sisters were used as the source of that innocent blood? And why didn't you like it?

Try and be specific.

No need. All of that would be unchanged. Again, just look at the Catholic church. There is nothing in the history of man that has had more in-fighting. Them being different parts of the same church means nothing more than that.

You need to brush up on your background material.

I think Purifier has been plenty specific enough times. There is a difference between agreeing with him ( which you certainly dont have to), vs claiming you dont get what he is saying (when he explained it clearly and others
seem to get it ).

Yes the fantastically power creeped Dark Elves, alongside Vampire Counts.

He (Gav Thorpe) wrote good novels and good fluff but, he is an absolute Horrible codex writer.

Not only that, but if you read interviews with him at the height of his activity he comes across as an arrogant yet clueless little punk. This made him all the worse in my book. That and the mullet he sported in his photos circa 2000 made me want to strangle him....

Ward deserves the hate he gets for randomly rewriting decades old fluff on a whim

That is pretty contemptable in my book as well....and something Gav was also guilty of. (he once gloated about it stating that he was like a "god" since he could make changes on a whim) But to be honest I notice broken rules/codex far more than I do background as I almost never bother reading the fluff any more. If I wanted to read fluff I would crack out my Rogue Trader rulebook, the two Realm of Chaos books, Waarrgghhg the Orks, the original Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay book, etc as the original Ansell and priestly written material is as good as or better than the crap that GW produces today.

I can;t speak to the novels as I can count on one hand (with fingers left over) how many GW produced novels I have read.

TR

Horus hersey series of novels are awesome

mcpothead wrote:Horus hersey series of novels are awesome

Some of them are. Others not so much.

*sits back and pops popcorn into mouth*

I LOVE Ward threads.

Kaldor wrote:
What parts are hyperbole? Why do you think they are?

Just purely out of interest Kaldor, have you read the new Grey Knights novel (The Emperor's Gift) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden?

You are talking about Mat Ward and this pleases him.

That being said, he is capable of writing heinous fluff and rules sets that are easily exploitable. Ignoring said fluff and using his codices like a civilized human being, you can make fun and competitive lists without causing butthurt. Just because you can take three dreadknight doesn't mean you should. The problem is with his work is that it doesn't take much mental fortitude to exploit some if his codices to make other people not want play. I would have to believe that his Mary Sue fluff and over the top rules are coming at the direction of management in order to sell more books and models.

ShitstainGuardsmen wrote:You are talking about Mat Ward and this pleases him.

That being said, he is capable of writing heinous fluff and rules sets that are easily exploitable. Ignoring said fluff and using his codices like a civilized human being, you can make fun and competitive lists without causing butthurt. Just because you can take three dreadknight doesn't mean you should. The problem is with his work is that it doesn't take much mental fortitude to exploit some if his codices to make other people not want play. I would have to believe that his Mary Sue fluff and over the top rules are coming at the direction of management in order to sell more books and models.

this.

And welcome to Dakka Dakka mate

Ok you know what bothers me about Draigo? How can he still be the GK supreme grand master if he is lost in the warp? Why don't they appoint a new one? Ignoring the fact that he wanders around the realm of chaos without turning into a spawn, or that he burned Nurgle's garden, or that he tore down the Inevitable City ... why don't the Grey Knights just appoint a new leader?

Kaldor wrote:
I'm sorry, I'm just not getting it. How do you know what mindset it was written in? Besides, Grey Knights are notorious for killing their allies. They killed trillions of loyal Imperial citizens after the first war for Armageddon, and the codex makes mention of them killing their allies after the battle is done on multiple occasions.

So I ask again. Which part didn't you like? The fact that innocent blood could be used in a ward against the bloodtide? The fact that Sisters were used as the source of that innocent blood? And why didn't you like it?

Actually, the Grey Knights themselves don't kill their allies, rather the Inquisitors who follow them around do that dirty task.

The whole Bloodtide thing would have been miles better if Ward had simply wrote it in a similar way to how the GK's used the sisters in the first Grey Knights novel... (ie: as a nice diversion to keep Gargatuloth's minions busy while the few knights made their way to the heart of the daemon prince's tomb. The end result was pretty much all the sisters getting their cute little @$$es handed to them and being killed by both the daemonic forces and the idiot guardsmen led by the crazy commissar who did the renegade inquisitor's bidding!)

Outright killing the sisters and lambasting their armour with 'the blood of the innocent' is beyond childishly stupid. However, the GK's willingly sending the sisters in first to be slaughtered, soaking the ground in their innocent blood, then the knights coming in behind chanting their prayers & devotions would have been MUCH more in character for them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

Bullcrap. 4chan /tg/ loves Ward now (atleast in the tsundere-ish, NO ITS NOT LIKE I LOVE YOUR CODEX). Its generally accepted by most fa/tg/uys that Ward's crunch is solid, and that his fluff is no worse then any of the other writers (present and past). Just be prepared for the usual 1d3 lines of text in each book that haters like to blow out of proportion every single time.

Most people will take Ward over Cruddace (and some Kelly) any day of the week. Bottom line is, Ward is no worse then any of the other authors that have written for GW.

Grey Knights may kill their allies after a battle, but they don't usually go around killing loyal forces BEFORE a battle. Besides, Grey Knights are supposed to be incorruptible because of their amazing training, strength of will, and geneseed. Why do they need to bathe in SoB blood at all?

FallenAfh wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

Bullcrap. 4chan /tg/ loves Ward now (atleast in the tsundere-ish, NO ITS NOT LIKE I LOVE YOUR CODEX). Its generally accepted by most fa/tg/uys that Ward's crunch is solid, and that his fluff is no worse then any of the other writers (present and past). Just be prepared for the usual 1d3 lines of text in each book that haters like to blow out of proportion every single time.

Most people will take Ward over Cruddace (and some Kelly) any day of the week. Bottom line is, Ward is no worse then any of the other authors that have written for GW.

I think his codices are more easy to exploit than other writers but this pretty spot on. People love to over blow his fluff violations, some odd it sucks but in the end you're not going to make it go away.

ShitstainGuardsmen wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

Bullcrap. 4chan /tg/ loves Ward now (atleast in the tsundere-ish, NO ITS NOT LIKE I LOVE YOUR CODEX). Its generally accepted by most fa/tg/uys that Ward's crunch is solid, and that his fluff is no worse then any of the other writers (present and past). Just be prepared for the usual 1d3 lines of text in each book that haters like to blow out of proportion every single time.

Most people will take Ward over Cruddace (and some Kelly) any day of the week. Bottom line is, Ward is no worse then any of the other authors that have written for GW.

I think his codices are more easy to exploit than other writers but this pretty spot on. People love to over blow his fluff violations, some odd it sucks but in the end you're not going to make it go away.

Fluff violation? Fluff is whatever GW says it is (and you will notice that Matt Ward is a member of the GW writing team), not whatever YOU want it to be or think it should be. I remember all the rage over the Dante/Silent King alliance, OMG NECRONS ARE MINDLESS EVIL, NOW THEY ARE BFFS FOREVER WARHAMMER 40K IS RUINED. When the more observant of us would point out that the Necron book was due for an update and most likely would have a fluff reboot too. I'll wager you that 5 years from now, that there will be a whole new generation of Necron players who will be raging if they were to revert to the old MINDLESS NOT-TYRANID, CTAN DID EVERYTHING oldcrons.

Mat Ward isn't bad. I'm not his biggest fan, but I don't want the next Tau codex to have "By Mat Ward" under the Title. Mostly because I still hold hope that GW will hire back Andy Hoare JUST for him to do that Tau book.

FallenAfh wrote:

ShitstainGuardsmen wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

Bullcrap. 4chan /tg/ loves Ward now (atleast in the tsundere-ish, NO ITS NOT LIKE I LOVE YOUR CODEX). Its generally accepted by most fa/tg/uys that Ward's crunch is solid, and that his fluff is no worse then any of the other writers (present and past). Just be prepared for the usual 1d3 lines of text in each book that haters like to blow out of proportion every single time.

Most people will take Ward over Cruddace (and some Kelly) any day of the week. Bottom line is, Ward is no worse then any of the other authors that have written for GW.

I think his codices are more easy to exploit than other writers but this pretty spot on. People love to over blow his fluff violations, some odd it sucks but in the end you're not going to make it go away.

Fluff violation? Fluff is whatever GW says it is (and you will notice that Matt Ward is a member of the GW writing team), not whatever YOU want it to be or think it should be.

That doesn't mean it can't be bad, or stupid, or poorly written and that people can't point that out.

I remember all the rage over the Dante/Silent King alliance, OMG NECRONS ARE MINDLESS EVIL, NOW THEY ARE BFFS FOREVER WARHAMMER 40K IS RUINED. When the more observant of us would point out that the Necron book was due for an update and most likely would have a fluff reboot too. I'll wager you that 5 years from now, that there will be a whole new generation of Necron players who will be raging if they were to revert to the old MINDLESS NOT-TYRANID, CTAN DID EVERYTHING oldcrons.

Most didn't like the "C'tan did everything" fluff either, the problem was that they turned the essence of what the Necrons were, a silent slumbering legion of deadly killers, into a copy/paste clone of Tomb Kings...just "In Spaaaaaaaaaaace!", when they could have gone so many other routes.

Would you prefer fluff contradiction? It is what it is. If that is what he and or management wanted then that's what we get. It does not mitigate that they are writing counter factual history but they dictate it. This is just an observation. Just to be perfectly clear, I don't care either way.

Vaktathi wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:

ShitstainGuardsmen wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

Bullcrap. 4chan /tg/ loves Ward now (atleast in the tsundere-ish, NO ITS NOT LIKE I LOVE YOUR CODEX). Its generally accepted by most fa/tg/uys that Ward's crunch is solid, and that his fluff is no worse then any of the other writers (present and past). Just be prepared for the usual 1d3 lines of text in each book that haters like to blow out of proportion every single time.

Most people will take Ward over Cruddace (and some Kelly) any day of the week. Bottom line is, Ward is no worse then any of the other authors that have written for GW.

I think his codices are more easy to exploit than other writers but this pretty spot on. People love to over blow his fluff violations, some odd it sucks but in the end you're not going to make it go away.

Fluff violation? Fluff is whatever GW says it is (and you will notice that Matt Ward is a member of the GW writing team), not whatever YOU want it to be or think it should be.

That doesn't mean it can't be bad, or stupid, or poorly written and that people can't point that out.

I remember all the rage over the Dante/Silent King alliance, OMG NECRONS ARE MINDLESS EVIL, NOW THEY ARE BFFS FOREVER WARHAMMER 40K IS RUINED. When the more observant of us would point out that the Necron book was due for an update and most likely would have a fluff reboot too. I'll wager you that 5 years from now, that there will be a whole new generation of Necron players who will be raging if they were to revert to the old MINDLESS NOT-TYRANID, CTAN DID EVERYTHING oldcrons.

Most didn't like the "C'tan did everything" fluff either, the problem was that they turned the essence of what the Necrons were, a silent slumbering legion of deadly killers, into a copy/paste clone of Tomb Kings...just "In Spaaaaaaaaaaace!", when they could have gone so many other routes.

So you concede that there was bad fluff then, just as now. Great. Nothing to do with my point. Fluff and direction is whatever GW decides to take it. Not how you think it should go. And thus there is no violation in the first place. I'm sure that there's a whole bunch of Rouge Trader veterans who wish for the good ol' days before all the writers decide to VIOLATE the fluff of the setting.

his codexes would be genuinely good if he wrote rules for all the armies. because he does not, his codexes are bad.

Twiqbal wrote:his codexes would be genuinely good if he wrote rules for all the armies. because he does not, his codexes are bad.

Bad? Well lets take a look at all the bad codex's

Matt ward has written two bad codex's, Daemons of Chaos (In fantasy) and Grey Knights

Robin Cruddance has written two bad codex's, Imperial guard (Leafblower) and Tyranids (To weak)

Phil Kelly has written Space wolves, and 4th edition Eldar.

Everyone has written something bad, I swear picking one codex writer out over anything else is just blatent.

Ward's codices are on par with the rest except for that his make them painfully obvious on how and what to exploit.

Noisy_Marine wrote:Besides, Grey Knights are supposed to be incorruptible because of their amazing training, strength of will, and geneseed. Why do they need to bathe in SoB blood at all?

People, pay attention. THIS is a legitimate criticism. Noisy Marine takes part of the text in question, and explains why it bothers him. When we don't like something, and we want to have a discussion about it (and I assume that's why we're in this thread?) this is how we should do it. We should not just bukakke words like 'hyperbole' or 'over-excited' or '12 year-old' into the thread. You should point out what you don't like, and why you don't like it,

Now, to address Noisy Marine's complaint: The Grey Knights are immune to the temptations of Chaos. Or rather, they have never succumbed. Whether that is through force of will or some innate immunity is not known, although doubtless it is a blend of the two, and some individuals will tend more towards the extremes.

However, Grey Knights are not immune, and have never been immune to the effects of Chaos. They can still be burned by the flames of Tzeench or diseased by the Plagues of Nurgle. The Aegis helps to protect them, but it is far from immunity. The Bloodtide would obviously have affected them. The Bloodtide is an odd daemonic entity, a one-of-a-kind thing that isn't encountered during routine missions. A ward against it requires a specific ingredient: the blood of the innocent. So the Grey Knights took it from the only source at hand - the Sisters of Battle.

The Grey Knights have never had any problem with extreme methods. In their mind, no method is too extreme when combating the arch-enemy. And they have never had any problem with killing innocents or allies, nor using sorcery against the enemy. This story serves nicely, IMO, to illustrate the ruthless and extreme nature of the Grey Knights and the Inquisition.

Pacific wrote:Just purely out of interest Kaldor, have you read the new Grey Knights novel (The Emperor's Gift) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden?

I have. Can't recommend it enough, it's an excellent novel. Get it from Amazon or some other third party site to save some cash.

FallenAfh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:

ShitstainGuardsmen wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

Bullcrap. 4chan /tg/ loves Ward now (atleast in the tsundere-ish, NO ITS NOT LIKE I LOVE YOUR CODEX). Its generally accepted by most fa/tg/uys that Ward's crunch is solid, and that his fluff is no worse then any of the other writers (present and past). Just be prepared for the usual 1d3 lines of text in each book that haters like to blow out of proportion every single time.

Most people will take Ward over Cruddace (and some Kelly) any day of the week. Bottom line is, Ward is no worse then any of the other authors that have written for GW.

I think his codices are more easy to exploit than other writers but this pretty spot on. People love to over blow his fluff violations, some odd it sucks but in the end you're not going to make it go away.

Fluff violation? Fluff is whatever GW says it is (and you will notice that Matt Ward is a member of the GW writing team), not whatever YOU want it to be or think it should be.

That doesn't mean it can't be bad, or stupid, or poorly written and that people can't point that out.

I remember all the rage over the Dante/Silent King alliance, OMG NECRONS ARE MINDLESS EVIL, NOW THEY ARE BFFS FOREVER WARHAMMER 40K IS RUINED. When the more observant of us would point out that the Necron book was due for an update and most likely would have a fluff reboot too. I'll wager you that 5 years from now, that there will be a whole new generation of Necron players who will be raging if they were to revert to the old MINDLESS NOT-TYRANID, CTAN DID EVERYTHING oldcrons.

Most didn't like the "C'tan did everything" fluff either, the problem was that they turned the essence of what the Necrons were, a silent slumbering legion of deadly killers, into a copy/paste clone of Tomb Kings...just "In Spaaaaaaaaaaace!", when they could have gone so many other routes.

So you concede that there was bad fluff then, just as now. Great. Nothing to do with my point. Fluff and direction is whatever GW decides to take it. Not how you think it should go. And thus there is no violation in the first place. I'm sure that there's a whole bunch of Rouge Trader veterans who wish for the good ol' days before all the writers decide to VIOLATE the fluff of the setting.

Yes, it's whatever direction GW decides to take it, that doesn't mean it can't violate previously standing fluff, or that it's not awful. It just means GW can take it where it wants. That doesn't mean people have to like it, that it's good, or that GW's taking it the right direction, or that it *doesn't* violate the previously established setting.