Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Know what the funniest thing here is?

Hari, the Chaos Space Marine player, is the loudest voice for corruption-resistant Space Marines.

I'm just going to sit here and feast on the irony.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
1. Guardsmen take much smaller risks as a whole.

No they do not. They go without any of the marines implant, without power armor, to fight the same battles as marines do. Because they do not have the choice.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
They usually only risk death on the battlefield, not corruption.

Uh ? Why ?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
If there is a Daemon able to corrupt almost everything in its path, it will disproportionally often be Marines who face it down rather than an equivalent percentage of Guardsmen, compared to the total numbers of SM and IG.

I disagree. Only Grey Knights will be especially present. Other marines, no reason for them to be especially present.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Of course it seems like a lot of them fall, they are often put in corruption's way because it is they who have the greatest chance of those available to succeed.

They are put ? They are totally autonomous. Every time they go fight, they go own their own will.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Guardsmen would hardly have resisted the corruption that befell the Abyssal Crusade Marines.

Guardsmen likely would not have resisted the inherent dangers of the Eye. They would not have been corrupted, they would have died. Also, it depends quite a bit on the regiment. Of course, some penal regiment will fall easily. But Kriegsmen, Vostroyans, Cadians ? Who are you kidding !

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
2. Marines get a much greater presence in fluff. Compared to their numbers, Marines are disproportionally often the focus of fluff texts.

Happy that you do acknowledge that.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
In truth, the Lost and the Damned outnumber the Traitor Marines so many times over so it is not even funny.

Yet they still do not have a codex...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
In truth, the Lost and the Damned outnumber the Traitor Marines so many times over so it is not even funny.

Yet they still do not have a codex...

Neither do the Mordian Iron Guard, the Tallarn Desert Raiders, Vostroyan First Born, Armageddon Steel Legion, Valhalla Ice Warriors, Attilian Rough Raiders, Elysian Drop Troops, DKoK, but are they not numerous enough? Are they not, fluff-wise, full-blown regiments? (I know you'll dismiss the Catachans since they have since to "downgraded" into an IG detachment).

No, they have a slot on the Allies Matrix instead.

That said, they kind of do have a codex. It got rolled into the Astral Claws codex in the Badab War books, but it still exists.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, they have a slot on the Allies Matrix instead.

That said, they kind of do have a codex. It got rolled into the Astral Claws codex in the Badab War books, but it still exists.

I don't recall seeing an allies Matrix of individual IG regiments in the GW rulebook -- which allies matrix are you referring to?

And of the Astral Claws codex you are speaking of: are we talking about the Forgeworld IA books here? Because if it's, forgeworld also has this.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It varies heavily by individuals for sure... But I have a hard time believing psycho-conditioning is useless here.

It certainly hasn't proven itself particularly effective in most cases. Even in the last 5,000 years, there have been scores of Space Marine Chapters, or portions thereof, going off to serve Chaos because they saw something scary. It's friggin' hilariously bad, to be honest. I still do not quite grasp how the Space Wolves lost so many dudes to Huron Blackheart... it's like he just shows up and they switch teams.

 Psienesis wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It varies heavily by individuals for sure... But I have a hard time believing psycho-conditioning is useless here.

It certainly hasn't proven itself particularly effective in most cases. Even in the last 5,000 years, there have been scores of Space Marine Chapters, or portions thereof, going off to serve Chaos because they saw something scary. It's friggin' hilariously bad, to be honest. I still do not quite grasp how the Space Wolves lost so many dudes to Huron Blackheart... it's like he just shows up and they switch teams.

It's reasonable, it's not like the IoM is all that comforting a place to be at...

 lcmiracle wrote:
Neither do the Mordian Iron Guard, the Tallarn Desert Raiders, Vostroyan First Born, Armageddon Steel Legion, Valhalla Ice Warriors, Attilian Rough Raiders, Elysian Drop Troops, DKoK

Oh ? I thought there was a codex called Imperial Guard, that regrouped all of them.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, they have a slot on the Allies Matrix instead.

That said, they kind of do have a codex. It got rolled into the Astral Claws codex in the Badab War books, but it still exists.

I don't recall seeing an allies Matrix of individual IG regiments in the GW rulebook -- which allies matrix are you referring to?

And of the Astral Claws codex you are speaking of: are we talking about the Forgeworld IA books here? Because if it's, forgeworld also has this.

Imperial Guard, Allies of Convenience with Chaos Space Marines = Lost and the Damned army.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, they have a slot on the Allies Matrix instead.

That said, they kind of do have a codex. It got rolled into the Astral Claws codex in the Badab War books, but it still exists.

I don't recall seeing an allies Matrix of individual IG regiments in the GW rulebook -- which allies matrix are you referring to?

And of the Astral Claws codex you are speaking of: are we talking about the Forgeworld IA books here? Because if it's, forgeworld also has this.

Imperial Guard, Allies of Convenience with Chaos Space Marines = Lost and the Damned army.

Oh, that one... well, yeah, so there is that too... thanks.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Imperial Guard, Allies of Convenience with Chaos Space Marines = Lost and the Damned army.

Imperial guard, allies of convenience with the tau = Guevesa army ?
Space marines, battle brothers with tau = ???

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It varies heavily by individuals for sure... But I have a hard time believing psycho-conditioning is useless here.

It certainly hasn't proven itself particularly effective in most cases. Even in the last 5,000 years, there have been scores of Space Marine Chapters, or portions thereof, going off to serve Chaos because they saw something scary. It's friggin' hilariously bad, to be honest. I still do not quite grasp how the Space Wolves lost so many dudes to Huron Blackheart... it's like he just shows up and they switch teams.

It's reasonable, it's not like the IoM is all that comforting a place to be at...

It is if you're a friggin' Space Marine. Especially a Space Wolf... the Fang is, like, Valhallaheaven.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Imperial Guard, Allies of Convenience with Chaos Space Marines = Lost and the Damned army.

Imperial guard, allies of convenience with the tau = Guevesa army ?
Imperial guard, battle brothers with space marines = ???

Imperial guard, battle brothers with Space Marines = Ideal situation. :p

Yes. That is exactly the logic I am getting at.

 Psienesis wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It varies heavily by individuals for sure... But I have a hard time believing psycho-conditioning is useless here.

It certainly hasn't proven itself particularly effective in most cases. Even in the last 5,000 years, there have been scores of Space Marine Chapters, or portions thereof, going off to serve Chaos because they saw something scary. It's friggin' hilariously bad, to be honest. I still do not quite grasp how the Space Wolves lost so many dudes to Huron Blackheart... it's like he just shows up and they switch teams.

It's reasonable, it's not like the IoM is all that comforting a place to be at...

It is if you're a friggin' Space Marine. Especially a Space Wolf... the Fang is, like, Valhallaheaven.

To us of course... on a good day, when me be on the hall, not on the field... when the land aren't boiling down to water... when em darn Krakens don't come bittin'... darn I almost lost me Fenrisian Wolf pelt I just carved that one day... made my way back to the fang to late, em' brothers... made me serve food... and those brother serfs ate the rest of the feast... ah... I heard those pirate got more food to eat then me.

And more importantly... how did you know the wolves weren't out-numbered; they were patrol groups, not even a company. Huron could have had an pirate fleet under his command... not that we wolves never had a traitor company before of course...

Edit: you should really read about the Wolf of Fenris on Codex CSM, 4E, it details the ambush and consequential assault, and also provides a rough estimate of forces involve, and in truth, only some of the "several of the space wolves" who were pinned down at the gunnery deck that turned on their brethrens joined Huron.

The Death Korps have a codex.

Or rather a free pdf and a book, the PDF has them follow the IG ally matrix, but IA 12 has given the Assault Brigade has given them their own matrix (Ally with anything imperial, to varrying degrees of trust, feth everything else)

Elysians have something, too.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The Death Korps have a codex.

Or rather a free pdf and a book, the PDF has them follow the IG ally matrix, but IA 12 has given the Assault Brigade has given them their own matrix (Ally with anything imperial, to varrying degrees of trust, feth everything else)

Elysians have something, too.

...that's what I said, they have forgeworld IA rules, so does the Renegade and Heretics (a.k.a Lost and the Damned) on IA Vol.5, the same as DKoK. All the detailed armylist are on Forgeworld, and therefore are valid -- both those regiments and those of the renegades

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Imperial Guard, Allies of Convenience with Chaos Space Marines = Lost and the Damned army.

Imperial guard, allies of convenience with the tau = Guevesa army ?
Imperial guard, battle brothers with space marines = ???

Imperial guard, battle brothers with Space Marines = Ideal situation. :p

Yes. That is exactly the logic I am getting at.

Oups, I meant "Space marines, battle brothers with tau = ???"
Edited.
I would love your explanation on what is represents .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Imperial Guard, Allies of Convenience with Chaos Space Marines = Lost and the Damned army.

Imperial guard, allies of convenience with the tau = Guevesa army ?
Imperial guard, battle brothers with space marines = ???

Imperial guard, battle brothers with Space Marines = Ideal situation. :p

Yes. That is exactly the logic I am getting at.

Oups, I meant "Space marines, battle brothers with tau = ???"
Edited.
I would love your explanation on what is represents .

Fire Warrior

Do you mean the crappy video game ? I did not play it long enough to understand your comment.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Oups, I meant "Space marines, battle brothers with tau = ???"
Edited.
I would love your explanation on what is represents .

GW's was that they've worked well together in the background before, or something to that effect.

I didn't even play that game -- I meant the BL novel

I have not read the novel either. My take on it is that this whole chart is stupid and should be thrown away.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have not read the novel either. My take on it is that this whole chart is stupid and should be thrown away.

Well that's your take... you may do what you what but renegade are a thing, so are the lost and the damned.

 lcmiracle wrote:

...that's what I said, they have forgeworld IA rules

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
In truth, the Lost and the Damned outnumber the Traitor Marines so many times over so it is not even funny.

Yet they still do not have a codex...

Neither do the Mordian Iron Guard, the Tallarn Desert Raiders, Vostroyan First Born, Armageddon Steel Legion, Valhalla Ice Warriors, Attilian Rough Raiders, Elysian Drop Troops, DKoK, but are they not numerous enough? Are they not, fluff-wise, full-blown regiments? (I know you'll dismiss the Catachans since they have since to "downgraded" into an IG detachment).

Then why would you got about saying this >:c

 lcmiracle wrote:
Well that's your take... you may do what you what but renegade are a thing, so are the lost and the damned.

Even if taking the whole ally into account, it seems chaos marines are worth a different codex to show their differences, while losts and damned do not. Quite telling...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
Well that's your take... you may do what you what but renegade are a thing, so are the lost and the damned.

Even if taking the whole ally into account, it seems chaos marines are worth a different codex to show their differences, while losts and damned do not. Quite telling...

Quite tellling indeed... it's like saying how small a force the SM are and yet they have their own codex...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:

...that's what I said, they have forgeworld IA rules

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
In truth, the Lost and the Damned outnumber the Traitor Marines so many times over so it is not even funny.

Yet they still do not have a codex...

Neither do the Mordian Iron Guard, the Tallarn Desert Raiders, Vostroyan First Born, Armageddon Steel Legion, Valhalla Ice Warriors, Attilian Rough Raiders, Elysian Drop Troops, DKoK, but are they not numerous enough? Are they not, fluff-wise, full-blown regiments? (I know you'll dismiss the Catachans since they have since to "downgraded" into an IG detachment).

Then why would you got about saying this >:c

Because they don't have a codex - IA is not a codex, it's codex supplement of army rules and army lists. Kriegian. Or must I high-light every part of my past conversation to show what I was meaning to say?

Honestly, same difference, its got fluff, artwork and rule ('least in the IA books), just not the codex mention, I call my pdf codex all the time.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Honestly, same difference, its got fluff, artwork and rule ('least in the IA books), just not the codex mention, I call my pdf codex all the time.

Whelp, you do that; I am not against FW products... I weren't even arguing with you about the whole Codex thing to begin with...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Know what the funniest thing here is?

Hari, the Chaos Space Marine player, is the loudest voice for corruption-resistant Space Marines.

I'm just going to sit here and feast on the irony.

Depends on the corruption. There's a big difference between "I'm sick and damn tired of serving the empire that simply asks more and never gives, and hot damn does Daemon Princehood look sick" and "oh hey look an artifac- ASDFOPAUOPSNFAFWENFASASFOUOIPUCUPNWERLJ:LJL:KJY*&(^&*CIHGH:LHLFHKLHLKJHO&*^(&*P!". Astartes have much greater resistance against Chaos if they choose so, but they're just not entirely good at resisting promises as power, given their nature as power-hungry war mongering kings/knights. But say against something like Doubtworm, Astartes know the GEOM is real by their mere existence as Astartes, and the SOB are super indoctrinated zealots who probably couldn't comprehend the idea of the GEOM being false. Guardsmen on the other hand are typically just meatshields who often are turned into gibbering lunatics by nearly anything daemonic. Guardsmen and their equals are the main soldiers of both the IOM and Chaos, as they're either born within one or sucked into it via corruption/indoctrination.

Has anyone seen the Ecclesiarchy thread?