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The Black Templars are those Imperial Fists who were too fired-up and too zealous in its prosecution to ever agree to the Codex Astartes, so they created them as the Black Templars and let them go carry on the Emperor's Crusade.

Geeze, I make one slightly snarky, characterful comment and everyone acts as if I'm a mindless hater.

I do have a Mantis Warriors army, you know. I don't hate Marines on principle. It doesn't change the fact that they're not human.

I kind of thought that was part of the attraction.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Geeze, I make one slightly snarky, characterful comment and everyone acts as if I'm a mindless hater.

I do have a Mantis Warriors army, you know. I don't hate Marines on principle. It doesn't change the fact that they're not human.

I kind of thought that was part of the attraction.

By the very definition Astartes are posthuman, both them and Admech Techpriests have gone far beyond transhumanism concepts- they're utterly posthuman, and IIRC even described as such in the Codex/BRB/Fluff. While they don't quality as another species per say (although the Admech might if they're able to clone their AI minds, which would fit the bill for asexual reproduction), Astartes have been so ridiculously heavily augmented that they've literally grown past their original human origins. Hell, even their minds have been heavily altered, considering Astartes experience emotions stronger than a normal human, not to mention have been so heavily indoctrinated their minds just function differently.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Thinking about the Ecclesiarchy's limitations, why couldn't they have their own Marine chapter, though? Astartes aren't human, so they "technically" aren't men.

The Inquisition and the High Lords of Terra wouldn't let that particular "technicality" fly. And while the Ecclesiarchy certainly has the cold hard cash to outfit several Chapters they don't have the clout to make the High Lords give them one. Chapters are founded when and where the High Lords see the need for one - though one could be founded to keep a pilgrimage route clear if it was important enough to the IoM.

Some Chapters are quite willing to listen to the suggestions of high-ranking Ecclasiarchy officials, ofc. Any Chapter that recovers a holy relic or liberates a holy site will probably receive rich rewards from the church in order to make them more likely to continue helping out.

 Wyzilla wrote:

By the very definition Astartes are posthuman, both them and Admech Techpriests have gone far beyond transhumanism concepts- they're utterly posthuman, and IIRC even described as such in the Codex/BRB/Fluff. While they don't quality as another species per say (although the Admech might if they're able to clone their AI minds, which would fit the bill for asexual reproduction), Astartes have been so ridiculously heavily augmented that they've literally grown past their original human origins. Hell, even their minds have been heavily altered, considering Astartes experience emotions stronger than a normal human, not to mention have been so heavily indoctrinated their minds just function differently.

Posthuman is no more human than human is monkey, although I suppose that (since we don't know for certain about the gelding effects of the process) a better comparison might be dogs to wolves.

Wolf: Canine predator.

Dog: Canine predator that has been altered on a genetic level by human interference to make them better.

Obviously, the parallel still isn't perfect, because dogs weren't bred to make them better killers in general (although arguably, a terrier is better at killing small, burrowing mammals than a wolf).

Of course, there are some people who will try and tell you that dogs are wolves, because under the literal definition since they can interbreed viably, they are the same species.

You could also compare them to mules - a male horse and a female donkey produce a foal that is arguably better than its parents, but is infertile. It's certainly not a horse, even though it's descended from one!

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

By the very definition Astartes are posthuman, both them and Admech Techpriests have gone far beyond transhumanism concepts- they're utterly posthuman, and IIRC even described as such in the Codex/BRB/Fluff. While they don't quality as another species per say (although the Admech might if they're able to clone their AI minds, which would fit the bill for asexual reproduction), Astartes have been so ridiculously heavily augmented that they've literally grown past their original human origins. Hell, even their minds have been heavily altered, considering Astartes experience emotions stronger than a normal human, not to mention have been so heavily indoctrinated their minds just function differently.

Posthuman is no more human than human is monkey, although I suppose that (since we don't know for certain about the gelding effects of the process) a better comparison might be dogs to wolves.

Wolf: Canine predator.

Dog: Canine predator that has been altered on a genetic level by human interference to make them better.

Obviously, the parallel still isn't perfect, because dogs weren't bred to make them better killers in general (although arguably, a terrier is better at killing small, burrowing mammals than a wolf).

Of course, there are some people who will try and tell you that dogs are wolves, because under the literal definition since they can interbreed viably, they are the same species.

You could also compare them to mules - a male horse and a female donkey produce a foal that is arguably better than its parents, but is infertile. It's certainly not a horse, even though it's descended from one!

Mules would be an apt description. Far hardier than a normal human, but unless it's a CSM under Slaanesh with some weirdly specific mutations, it's highly unlikely to ever reproduce, or even be capable of doing so. Biologically they're just a human technologically evolved to the point of probable biological sterility, but philosophically lack normally defining asepcts of humanity most cultures recognize. The only chapters that really continue to be "humans" are the Salamanders, Raven Guard, and Black Dragons, but even they can have some incredibly weird nutjobs in their ranks that can't really claim to retain their humanity.

Although, then there's also the point that it's quite likely most humans in W40K probably wouldn't qualify as Terran Humans of the modern day, due to being seperrated from each other on extremely diverse and harsh worlds that would have caused some major differences. Think different breeds of dogs all within the same class, like working hounds. While they're compatible and could breed with each other, they've all evolved incredibly unique traits during their several thousand year long isolation on worlds like Nocturne or Fenris.

Again: The background is clear: By Decree Passive, the Ecclesiarchy is forbidden to "gather, train, promote, sustain or in any way command any force of men under arms". Space Marines are considered men, so no Ecclesiarchy Astartes Chapter.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Decree_Passive

Geeze, I make one slightly snarky, characterful comment and everyone acts as if I'm a mindless hater.

SOB players are also the ones with the thinnest skins, you make one comment about them and suddenly oh now you hate women because you don't like fetishist space nuns.

I do have a Mantis Warriors army, you know. I don't hate Marines on principle. It doesn't change the fact that they're not human.

I kind of thought that was part of the attraction.

No not really I thought the attraction was that they were MORE than human, not less. If you had a heart problem and they replaced you heart with and artificial one would you be less human?

Yes, you would be less human if you had an artificial heart. You would be part human, part machine.

There's a difference between 'not human' and 'less than human'. Honestly, you'd think humans were somehow magically better than everything else by the way you're carrying on.

Of course, the Sisters believe they are better because they're human, but while I may play the army and staunchly defend the established fluff, that doesn't mean I'm a closed-minded bigot.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
SOB players are also the ones with the thinnest skins, you make one comment about them and suddenly oh now you hate women because you don't like fetishist space nuns.

Ironclad, do you think that insulting SoB players and their army will improve anything?

Anyway, it's not really fair to make such a big generalisation about an entire playerbase just because you are upset with some forum posts by some SoB players. And I don't really see other SoB players zealously accusing people of sexism, myself. Often that'll only come up when it's actually relevant.

 Troike wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
SOB players are also the ones with the thinnest skins, you make one comment about them and suddenly oh now you hate women because you don't like fetishist space nuns.

Ironclad, do you think that insulting SoB players and their army will improve anything?

Anyway, it's not really fair to make such a big generalisation about an entire playerbase just because you are upset with some forum posts by some SoB players. And I don't really see other SoB players zealously accusing people of sexism, myself. Often that'll only come up when it's actually relevant.

I haven't heard that much accusations of sexism here, but I must say that some SoB fans here are rather 'fierce'. More so than fans of other armies.

Not entirely on this forum, more talking about stuff in devart. I'm tired also so that affects my post somewhat.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
but I must say that some SoB fans here are rather 'fierce'. More so than fans of other armies.

Heh, maybe. I think an at least partial cause of that is that there's a lot of misconceptions and opinions about the Sisters, so there's plenty of debates around them. Personally, while I'll eagerly take part in such debates, I do try to remain polite too.

But anyway, the important thing is to try not to make any generalisations about people (not saying you were, just a general thought). Just on this forum, many SoB players are aren't "fierce" about these sorts of things at all.

 Troike wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
but I must say that some SoB fans here are rather 'fierce'.

I think an at least partial cause of that is that there's a lot of misconceptions and opinions about the Sisters.

Like the previously mentioned "high-heeled fetish nuns"... The only high heels are in that one picture by Blanche, and I fail to see much nunsploitation in the models. They're visibly female but don't show any skin, except for the Repentia - and those are IMO scary instead of sexy. Pinning holy texts to your naked skin isn't really "hot".

Spetulhu wrote:
Pinning holy texts to your naked skin isn't really "hot".

Not in your country

Both SM and SoB fans are 'fierce', as are quite a few IG fans from what I see.

I suspect it is simply spawned from different interpretations of 40K.

Two IG players look at a Battle Cannon, smile and say 'That will kill a whole squad of Marines with no problems.'

Cue SM fans get their jimmies rustled.

Meanwhile SM in some book somewhere roflstomp everything.

Cue IG and SoB fans get their jimmies rustled.

Et cetera, ad nauseam.

It is part 'my daddy is stronger than your daddy' and dick-measuring contests, but I believe that it mostly is more light-hearted than it seems.

Sure, in my headcanon IG are cannon fodder (Almost everything-fodder actually) and SoB do somewhat better by virtue of supersaiyan powers and better equipment, while Astartes slaughter everything and are 9' tall, but that doesn't mean I don't respect different interpretations.

I just happen to like stupid OP stuff. The first time I spotted Astartes depicted as above in a book or whatever somewhere, I instantly fell in love.

As for ecclesiarchy marines, well, they wouldn't break 'Men under arms' since they are... Something else by now, and it would bridge the gap. But I don't really see the need when we have SoB as ecclesiarchy-warriors-with-PA-and-bolters already.

We play 40k, the whole thing is about the size of your... gun. It's not really surprising that we like to bicker over whose is better.

Personally, I only get my... jimmies rustled (heh) when someone decides that the only way to elevate their chosen faction is to be offended that someone implies that their other faction isn't crap.

I don't think I get pissed off by anything else that's doesn't involve sapient rights violations.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I'll never understand the dislike SOB players have for the space marines.

Jealousy. Cue my sig.

Jimmy the Rustler is going to be my next Rogue Trader character.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
as are quite a few IG fans from what I see.

Really has to do with the fact that some people consider the IG to be litteraly nothing but fodder while they're what is holding the Imperium together.

Come on, they are clearly not alone in holding the Imperium together. The Imperium would be in deep, deep trouble if it had to rely only on the Guard. There are other extremely important military forces at work, that are pretty essential to the survival of the Imperium of Men.
I am obviously referring the only ones that rivals, and maybe even exceed, the Guard in numbers. The planetary defense forces, of course ! Who else could matter at the Imperium scale anyway ?

Aaaaaaah snap, you're too damn right about that!

look my avatar in the eyes… oh, wait, you can't ! Are recently gouged out eyes sexy

Well you asked the question so.... blood is sexy it just is, why do you think vampires books and movies have always had sexual overtones?

That's what I hate about sisters of battle. I'm supposed to look at a whole bunch of BDMS nuns with chastity belts and whips and have no reaction, if I say they look stupid someone on devart says I'm a sexist, if I say their hot then I have lots of problems.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
as are quite a few IG fans from what I see.

Really has to do with the fact that some people consider the IG to be litteraly nothing but fodder while they're what is holding the Imperium together.

See, you just proved my point.

Besides, the fact that Marines are repeatedly described as something the Imperium would have fallen without exists too. ;D

You can argue that the Guard is -more- useful for all you like, but pretty much all parts of the Imperium's defense are undebatably vital, and Marines are certainly among them.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Well you asked the question so.... blood is sexy it just is, why do you think vampires books and movies have always had sexual overtones?

I read Bram Stocker's Dracula, and I did not notice sexual overtones. I noticed sealing tombs with hostia, though. And vampires not being able to voluntarily cross bodies of water, needing to rely on tricks to do that.
Anyway, you should rely watch this movie if you think bloody is sexy :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGMzxhk3Hg
So much sexy ! So much sexy everywhere !
Or if you like your sexy to be realistic (and even, well, real) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZ2pTspHPs

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
That's what I hate about sisters of battle. I'm supposed to look at a whole bunch of BDMS nuns with chastity belts and whips and have no reaction, if I say they look stupid someone on devart says I'm a sexist, if I say their hot then I have lots of problems.

Just say they are KEWL, it should work fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Besides, the fact that Marines are repeatedly described as something the Imperium would have fallen without exists too. ;D

Did not notice.
Seems unlikely given just their sheer numbers, and how they compare to, say, the big guns from the navy. Or even baneblades. As far as I can say, there are more baneblades than marines in the galaxy, and baneblades are more destructive and able to take more punishment than marines. Even though they are less suited for commando missions .

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
but pretty much all parts of the Imperium's defense are undebatably vital, and Marines are certainly among them.

Given how half of them ends up working against the Imperium…

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
That's what I hate about sisters of battle. I'm supposed to look at a whole bunch of BDMS nuns with chastity belts and whips

It's just one unit in the SoB that is like that. And nothing is ever said about them having chastity belts.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Well you asked the question so.... blood is sexy it just is, why do you think vampires books and movies have always had sexual overtones?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Besides, the fact that Marines are repeatedly described as something the Imperium would have fallen without exists too. ;D

Did not notice.
Seems unlikely given just their sheer numbers, and how they compare to, say, the big guns from the navy. Or even baneblades. As far as I can say, there are more baneblades than marines in the galaxy, and baneblades are more destructive and able to take more punishment than marines. Even though they are less suited for commando missions .

I agree, Vance M-fing Stubbs certain had his hands on 300 hundred of them, and was able to produce a baneblade every 10 minutes given enough material; and I was under the impression the production rate of Baneblade is bloody slow...

Given how half of them ends up working against the Imperium…

You damn right! And the next move is to push the remaining half against the Imperium too

 lcmiracle wrote:
You damn right! And the next move is to push the remaining half against the Imperium too

I am pretty sure just saying “Hi” while forgetting to look at them in the eye is enough to turn them anyway.

Marines : making guardsmen look incorruptibles !

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
You damn right! And the next move is to push the remaining half against the Imperium too

I am pretty sure just saying “Hi” while forgetting to look at them in the eye is enough to turn them anyway.

Marines : making guardsmen look incorruptibles !

Yeah, because heretics and traitor guardsmen aren't the majority of chaos warbands!
also, War of Faith -- Sisters: makes even the most dogmatic marines look reasonable!

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Given how half of them ends up working against the Imperium…

You damn right! And the next move is to push the remaining half against the Imperium too

Don't worry, bud. I don't think that there are any Space Marines posting here. I'm sure that the other half won't be driven heresy by Oxayotl's snark.

 lcmiracle wrote:
also, War of Faith -- Sisters: makes even the most dogmatic marines look reasonable!

Actually, the Templars are about as fanatic.

Also, the Sisters draw strength from dogma. That's what lets them use AoFs or the SoF.