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I predict it now. GW's website...

Sisters of Battle:
Like Space Marines, but minus all the cool stuff! Buy them today!

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

SOB players are also the ones with the thinnest skins, you make one comment about them and suddenly oh now you hate women because you don't like fetishist space nuns.

You are a fool..

Not because you make comments on the Sisters of Battle, but because you make sweeping trollish comments.......on the Sisters of Battle. See the difference?!?



...

Steelmage99 wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

SOB players are also the ones with the thinnest skins, you make one comment about them and suddenly oh now you hate women because you don't like fetishist space nuns.

You are an idiot.

Not because you make comments on the Sisters of Battle, but because you make sweeping trollish comments.......on the Sisters of Battle. See the difference?!?

You should both remember rule #1.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I predict it now. GW's website...

Sisters of Battle:
Like Space Marines, but minus all the cool stuff! Buy them today!

I wouldn't say that... I mean I do enjoy this little two circle-jerks going on in the thread, but I'd give the sister credits for being the utterly loyal servant to the Emperor whose faith supposedly no other in the Imperium can match.

But like you said, they are in many level, also pretty much marines, just women.
They have been said to operate in smaller missions:

-- "Orders Millitant", Codex: Adeptus Sororitas, p12.

First, I confess I do not know what's with GW/BL's obsession with the number 1000, but I do know that the Sororitas are stretched just as thin as the Adeptus Astartes, if no more.

Second, their faith is not always an asset:

-- "Ordo Hereticus", Codex: inquisition, p22

Just being faithful don't mean one would not stray too far to serve against the whole of the Imperium. No human, in the 41st Millennium, from the highiest-born high lords of Terra, to the purest of pure Gary Stus, are immune to this rule.

And despite all the s&*t I gave the Sisters, I'd say this, I dislike them not because their supposed "purity" beyond all counts but because how their players so devoted to the idea of their army's purity that some of them go through lengthy rants to discredit other factions of the Imperium. Had their player base allow for more varied personalities into the sisters, their factions would have been much more interesting (albeit no necessarily more popular.)

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

SOB players are also the ones with the thinnest skins, you make one comment about them and suddenly oh now you hate women because you don't like fetishist space nuns.

You are an idiot.

Not because you make comments on the Sisters of Battle, but because you make sweeping trollish comments.......on the Sisters of Battle. See the difference?!?

You should both remember rule #1.

You are right.

Quick courtesy-edit performed.

 Troike wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
also, War of Faith -- Sisters: makes even the most dogmatic marines look reasonable!

Actually, the Templars are about as fanatic.

Also, the Sisters draw strength from dogma. That's what lets them use AoFs or the SoF.

Well I am not sayin' that Marines are immune to corruption/fanaticism/etc., I'm just sayin' that every faction has its own quirks.
SM, are by the settings, the supposedly utter most powerful single living-being of the Imperium, but just like everything else, are susceptible to whatever downfalls their beliefs may bring.
For example, Space Wolves, are by setting, the anti-authoritarian maverick whose existence is only tolerated because their strength, and the cost it'd take to put them in line that must be spend on more important matters. They, to some extend, are closer to "standard" human than many of their other Brother Astartes; they, on the other hand, are also easily enraged and are more brute than warriors. It's not that they don't know they should probably not burn a certain planet, but they just don't care -- Russ never liked psykers that much and he care little for he's blinded by rage and prejudice. These are the whole package, and I settle with it.

But just because one is in XXX way better than another in XXX way doesn't mean they are not needed in the Imperium according to the fluffy.
But I still don't like the Sisters.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I predict it now. GW's website...

Sisters of Battle:
Like Space Marines, but minus all the cool stuff! Buy them today!

You wish, bud.

 lcmiracle wrote:
First, I confess I do not know what's with GW/BL's obsession with the number 1000

There's some justification for it, in-fluff. Sisters from Major Orders can organise into a detatchment called a Preceptory which is 1000 Sisters strong and set up elsewhere. The implication is that these Preceptories eventually become their own Minor Orders, hence Minor Orders of 1000 Sisters.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Second, their faith is not always an asset:

Spoiler:

In addition to monitoring the Ecclesiarchy – ensuring that Wars of Faith do not exceed their mandate or that its many Cardinals do not amass more power than is deemed appropriate – the Ordo Hereticus keeps a close eye on many other Imperial organisations: the Adeptus Arbites, the Adeptus Astartes, the Adepta Sororitas and also fellow members of the Inquisition.

I'd think that they're watching the Sisters due to their role as the Ecclesiarchy's militant arm. Want to make sure that they're not misused or misled in any way. While it's certainly true that the Sisters can be misled by evil clergy, they also have a nasty habit of turning on said misleader once they find the truth. But otherwise, I'd say that their faith is more useful than not. It helps them greatly in their role as soldiers, and lets them resist warp/Chaos effects where others cannot.

 lcmiracle wrote:
because how their players so devoted to the idea of their pure forces that some of them go through lengthy rants to discredit other factions of the Imperium.

I don't really see SoB fans trying to "discredit" other factions. More often, it's them trying to assert that the Sisters are better than what the other person thinks or trying to clarify some issue of their fluff. And, you know, every army has devoted fans. Of course you'll get a few people arguing in favour of their own chosen army.

Also, I can think of another fanbase on here that's sometimes prone to making lengthly posts arguing in favour of their own faction. Can you guess who I'm referring to?

 lcmiracle wrote:
Had their player base allow for more varied personalities into the sisters, their factions would have been much more interesting (albeit no necessarily more popular.)

IMO, people who are expecting a lot of variance within the Sisters may have the wrong expectations. They're not here to be everymen like the IG, their role is to show off the very heights of zeal, and how far dogma can be taken. And a faction characterised by its zeal and adherence to dogma isn't going to have as much variation as some other factions. But with the Imperium being so very relgious, I think that such a faction fits right in.

Of course, they're not robots. They can have individual personalities and mannerisms and such. But the important thing is that on top of all that, they're still fanatically devoted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lcmiracle wrote:
But just because one is in XXX way better than another in XXX way doesn't mean they are not needed in the Imperium according to the fluffy.

I never said that anybody wasn't needed.

To clarify, I don't dislike Marines and wouldn't argue in favour of them going away or anything like that. I even plan on buying some Marine minis as allies for my Sisters, once my SoB army is built up a bit.

The Ordo Hereticus were founded to watch the Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy to make sure they didn't step out of line again, so of course they keep an eye on the Adepta Sororitas, lol.

Just like the Sisters' official mission is to keep a close watch on the Ecclesiarchy and make sure they don't go rogue. Unfortunately, certain Black Library authors' love for using the Sisters as Worf has corrupted this duty so it looks like they're easily duped by anyone in a fancy enough hat. Sigh.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Ordo Hereticus were founded to watch the Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy to make sure they didn't step out of line again, so of course they keep an eye on the Adepta Sororitas, lol.

Just like the Sisters' official mission is to keep a close watch on the Ecclesiarchy and make sure they don't go rogue. Unfortunately, certain Black Library authors' love for using the Sisters as Worf has corrupted this duty so it looks like they're easily duped by anyone in a fancy enough hat. Sigh.

...excuse me?
The sisters' mission is not to watch the Ecclesiarchy, They provide military service to them.

I read Bram Stocker's Dracula, and I did not notice sexual overtones

Well not for a modern audiencebut for Victorian England this was pretty racey stuff.

Not because you make comments on the Sisters of Battle, but because you make sweeping trollish comments.......on the Sisters of Battle. See the difference?!?

I disagree with the personal insults but i'll admit I'm a little shell shocked from forums with to many 4chan rejects.

@lcmiracle
Nah, Miko's right. One of their jobs is to monitor the Ecclesiarchy. Just one sentence before the one you cited, it says "The Orders Militant also form an internal policing force for the Ecclesiarchy itself.".

Also, it's Adepta Sororitas. Easy mistake to make, though.

Why is it 'adepta' anyway, when everything else is called 'adeptus'?

Seems strange. I guess it is because it is all-female, but then, the order itself is not. Just its members. The order is very genderless last I checked.

From what I've heard, it's to make it more feminine in the Latin language, which is relevant as the Sisterhood is all-female. Though I've also heard that it isn't grammatically correct in Latin, or something. But whatever.

Adeptus is a gendered term (Latin), just like Adepta.

Implying all other organisations are 'male'?

Huh.

 Troike wrote:
@lcmiracle
Nah, Miko's right. One of their jobs is to monitor the Ecclesiarchy. Just one sentence before the one you cited, it says "The Orders Militant also form an internal policing force for the Ecclesiarchy itself.".

Also, it's Adepta Sororitas. Easy mistake to make, though.

Well that line says only that they are the tool the church use to deal with troublesome cardinals. i.e. "dispatched"

Also, yeah my mistake on the typo

Sure, but why not other troublesome clergy too? After all, there's lots of ranks within the Ecclesiarchy beyond Cardinal, and there's no reason why those of other ranks can't "lose their way" too. And anyway, I'm pretty sure that that line about Cardinals is meant as an example rather than a summary of everything they do to fill their stated role as "internal police". Because "internal police" is a fairly broad title, if all they did was hunt down rogue Cardinals, then why bother giving such a title in the first place?

 Troike wrote:
Sure, but why not other troublesome clergy too? After all, there's lots of ranks within the Ecclesiarchy beyond Cardinal, and there's no reason why those of other ranks can't "lose their way" too. And anyway, I'm pretty sure that that line about Cardinals is meant as an example rather than a summary of everything they do to fill their stated role as "internal police". Because "internal police" is a fairly broad title, if all they did was hunt down rogue Cardinals, then why bother giving such a title in the first place?

Clergy, confessor, and cardinals are all under the authority of the head of ecclesiarchy i.e., the one high lord of Terra - Ecclesiarch. The sisters will then obey orders from their superiors e.g., cannoness to her sisters. Unless otherwise ordered by higher ranking ecclesiarchy members or an inquisitor, the sisters would have no authority over a cardinal. If we are to describe the Sisterhood as a policing force, then they are in no way authorized to judge.

Quote from the current Codex

The Orders Militant also form an internal policing force for the Ecclesiarchy itself. The Battle Sisters may be dispatched to deal with a troublesome cardinal who has lost his way, either through their mere presence and the threat it implies, or in more serious cases by
forcibly and permanently removing them from power

I think that you can read it either way - that they turn up and do their job or they are their to watch and judge what they find? Likely its a mixture of the two and some justifcaiton (and paperwork) will be required if they resort to extreme measures on their own judgement (bit like an Inquisitor)

 lcmiracle wrote:
Yeah, because heretics and traitor guardsmen aren't the majority of chaos warbands!

Indeed. Why do you think they only have one lonely troop choice in this edition Chaos codex, and had none in the previous one ? And it is not even a Imperial Guard renegades slots, they even share this slot with the much, much more usual civilian cults. Sometimes some Imperial Guards falls to Chaos, usually when when captured and under direct threat from a Chaos Marine. Marines ? They will jump at any pretext to start worshiping the dark gods.

Why did you think the Imperium went from using marines as their main force (during the great crusade) to having just a very few marines chapters, limited to tiny sizes, and relying on the Imperial Guard for, well, almost everything ?

 lcmiracle wrote:
also, War of Faith -- Sisters: makes even the most dogmatic marines look reasonable!

Indeed. That is why Sisters do not fall to chaos, and can be relied upon.

 lcmiracle wrote:
SM, are by the settings, the supposedly utter most powerful single living-being of the Imperium, but just like everything else, are susceptible to whatever downfalls their beliefs may bring.

Uh ? Seems to me the Custodes are both much more powerful than the marines, and are not nearly as much susceptible to go traitor as soon as they come across something shiny or have an heartache over some bromance cut short by death .

 lcmiracle wrote:
their players so devoted to the idea of their army's purity that some of them go through lengthy rants to discredit other factions of the Imperium.

If by "other factions of the Imperium", you mean "space marines", okay, maybe. If by "other factions of the Imperium", you mean "the Imperial Guard, the Imperial Navy, the Adeptus Mechanicum, the Inquisition, the Adeptus Administratum, the Adeptus Arbites, the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, the Navis Nobilite and the Rogue Traders", I disagree with you. I hardly ever saw some Sisters of Battle player denigrate those organizations.

 lcmiracle wrote:
The sisters' mission is not to watch the Ecclesiarchy, They provide military service to them.

Spoiler:

"Due to its all-female membership, the Daughters of the Emperor did not technically break this ban and thus were incorporated into the ranks of the Adeptus Ministorum. Renamed the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas, the Sisterhood became true defenders of the faith and a very physical reminder of the power of the Ecclesiarchy." "The Reformation Of The Ecclesiarchy", Codex: Adeptus Sororitas.

There is no mention of them watching the Ecclesiarchy, except they "may be dispatched to deal with a troublesome cardinal who has lost his way" ("The Orders Militant", Codex: Adeptus Sororitas). That's like saying Inquisitor YYY sent a Adeptus Astartes Chapter to deal with XXX renegade chapter, therefore the Space Marines are the watchers of the Adeptus Astartes -- No! They are, in this case, the policing force of the Imperium to bring said chapter back in line or otherwise eliminate them. They don't bloody watch them, the Inquisition does that; The sisters watches not their church, the Inquisition and the High-ranking Ecclesiarchy officials watches them.

Despite Thor's argument that "Adeptus Sororitas would regulated the Ecclesiarchy as much as enforce its will did not fall on deaf ears" given to the concerned (to say the least) High Lords of Terra, it's stated clearly that sisterhood were kept because Sebastian "...not wishing the Ecclesiarchy to be totally subservient to the will of Adeptus Terra and the Imperial Guard, ..." It was from the start intended to be the militant forces of the Church, and they acted just like it.

There is more than just one source of fluff on the Sisters. This line you quote here is reminiscent of what was said even as far back as second edition codex. Sisters have always been to the Ecclesiarchy what the Feds are to police. Internal affairs.
If you want to have a look at the relation between the clergy and the sororitas, just read Faith and Fire, from Black Library.

And fluffy wise SM scouts are almost always deployed in medium to large skirmishes, but I can choose not to take any as my troop choice. Game Mechanics doesn't always reflect the fluffy.
Custodes are actually really easy to be killed off by astartes. And astartes are much weaker strenght and endurance-wise compared to the thunder warriors.
Had they be so wholly able to rely upon the ordo heretics wouldn't have to watch the ecclesiarchy and their war of faith lest it falls out of the interst of the imperium.
First of all, many Sister players view the Guards as cannon folders, whereas they actually aren't. Regiments are specialized to serve as shock troops, siege units, armoured regiments, etc. And the dissing is to all and not just the SM.
Lastly, if they are Feds, they'll be explicitly said to be both the police AND the judge as in the case of the Adeptus Arbites. Feds they ARE NOT

Actually, one on one, any given Space Marine will have his ass handed to him by a Custodes. The Custodes train as assassins, bodyguards and solo operatives. Where the SM excel is in small-unit tactics and in working together as a team, so a team of 5 SM will likely defeat a team of 5 Custodes, all other things being equal, as the Custodes are less-likely to operate as a cohesive team of soldiers, rather as just 5 badasses who happen to be in the same place.

I have not seen a Sisters player consider the IG to be nothing but "cannon fodder". Many BL writers consider them such, hence the "wiped out to a man" meme, until the SM arrive to defeat whatever it was without suffering any losses (because Space Marines). The IG, though, *are* something of a cannon fodder in the setting, as the Imperium does expend millions of their lives in wars all over the damn place all the time. And then you have Chenkov.

The Sisters are tasked with policing the Ecclesiarchy, they are, to quote Codex: Witch-Hunters, "the sword at the Ecclesiarchy's throat". If someone in the Ecc is not doing the right thing, they can expect to get a Dominican-pattern drop pod through their window one day. Of course, the Imperium being what it is, there are not Sisters on every world, and a given Ecclesiarchal member can get up to funny business for quite a long time before anyone notices.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Game Mechanics doesn't always reflect the fluffy.

Well, the fluffy speaks a lot of chaos space marines. I have not seen the fluffy speak nearly as much about chaos imperial guards.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Custodes are actually really easy to be killed off by astartes.

No. Not by a long shot. One Custodes will fight ten Astartes and beat all of them. The Emperor is not stupid enough to choose bodyguards that would be easily beaten by the largest source of traitors and chaos worshiper !

 lcmiracle wrote:
Had they be so wholly able to rely upon the ordo heretics wouldn't have to watch the ecclesiarchy and their war of faith lest it falls out of the interst of the imperium.

Do you know who the Inquisition trust ? That is right, exactly no-one. Not even themselves !

 lcmiracle wrote:
First of all, many Sister players view the Guards as cannon folders

Have you read this thread ? Because if someone on DakkaDakka views the guard as cannon fodder, it is BrotherHaraldus.
I only said that Planetary Defense Force, who are even more scorned, are actually also an important part of the Imperium.
For me, the most important defense force of the Imperium are Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy/PDF, and everything else is details.
Also Commissar Ciaphas Cain is a TRUE HERO OF THE IMPERIUM. And he tease Kohrne-dedicated Chaos Space Marines while besting them in single combat .

 lcmiracle wrote:
whereas they actually aren't.

Some of them (for instance penal company) are. Some of them are quite good, but by their methods totally qualify as cannon fodder (I am looking at you, Kriegsmen !), and some are just elite fighting forces.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Lastly, if they are Feds, they'll be explicitly said to be both the police AND the judge

Uh ? The Feds are supposed to be the police and the judge now ? What are you talking about ?
The Arbites are Judge Dredd inspired super police forces. They are policing the Imperium civilian population. Nothing to do with the Ecclesiarchy.

 Psienesis wrote:

The Sisters are tasked with policing the Ecclesiarchy, they are, to quote Codex: Witch-Hunters, "the sword at the Ecclesiarchy's throat". If someone in the Ecc is not doing the right thing, they can expect to get a Dominican-pattern drop pod through their window one day. Of course, the Imperium being what it is, there are not Sisters on every world, and a given Ecclesiarchal member can get up to funny business for quite a long time before anyone notices.

Well... That's embarrassing... But equally interesting I suppose. But faith being faith, is a rather personal thing, and wouldn't you agree that the inquisition must keep watch on not just the Ecclesiarchy, but also the sisters? As none in the grimdarkness of the 41st millennium is immune to making horrible mistakes, surely all blades can hurt its masters as much as its target?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Actually, one on one, any given Space Marine will have his ass handed to him by a Custodes. The Custodes train as assassins, bodyguards and solo operatives. Where the SM excel is in small-unit tactics and in working together as a team, so a team of 5 SM will likely defeat a team of 5 Custodes, all other things being equal, as the Custodes are less-likely to operate as a cohesive team of soldiers, rather as just 5 badasses who happen to be in the same place.

I have not seen a Sisters player consider the IG to be nothing but "cannon fodder". Many BL writers consider them such, hence the "wiped out to a man" meme, until the SM arrive to defeat whatever it was without suffering any losses (because Space Marines). The IG, though, *are* something of a cannon fodder in the setting, as the Imperium does expend millions of their lives in wars all over the damn place all the time. And then you have Chenkov.

The Sisters are tasked with policing the Ecclesiarchy, they are, to quote Codex: Witch-Hunters, "the sword at the Ecclesiarchy's throat". If someone in the Ecc is not doing the right thing, they can expect to get a Dominican-pattern drop pod through their window one day. Of course, the Imperium being what it is, there are not Sisters on every world, and a given Ecclesiarchal member can get up to funny business for quite a long time before anyone notices.

Of course. The Inquisition watches everyone except 2 groups: The God-Emperor, Himself and the Adeptus Custodes who guard His person.

 lcmiracle wrote:
And the dissing is to all and not just the SM.

Haven't seen this myself. If anything, the usual scene seems to be SoB fans arguing in favour for their own faction rather than insulting other factions. Personally, I don't really dislike any other faction and respect that they all have their appealing aspects.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
just read Faith and Fire, from Black Library.

I did recently, along with Hammer and Anvil. They're still pretty great SoB stories.

God, I wish Swallow would write that third SoB book.

 Psienesis wrote:
Of course. The Inquisition watches everyone except 2 groups: The God-Emperor, Himself and the Adeptus Custodes who guard His person.

Your mistake is to trust anyone in the 41st Millenium. Nobody is an incorruptible and unmistaken, pure snowflakes; I know you'll say I'm putting works in your mouth, but I'm not. Because the sisters have sided with the wrong man once due to their faith, while we will not bear grudge against them, one must keep a close eye to make sure it never happen again. There, I don't like them, I don't like their concept. And less said about it the better

The Inquisition does watch the Sisters. They watch everyone who is not the God-Emperor of Mankind or the Custodes who have proven themselves beyond reproach.

However, unlike the Space Marines, the Sisters have exactly 0 studio characters ever falling to Chaos. None have ever decided to willingly serve the Ruinous Powers, and none have ever fallen to Chaos to become Chaos Sisters of Battle, unlike the Space Marines and half of the Emperor's own sons.

So while the Inquisition *does* watch the Sisters, and the Ecclesiarchy... it's not a particularly eventful watch. The Sisters are, in the main, a self-policing organization. In fact, if a given Sister even *thinks* she might have done something even *slightly* heretical, she's rabbiting off to her Sister Superior for a beating or assignment to the Sisters Repentia.

@Hybrid Son Of Ocayotl
Few fluffy details on non-marine Chaos warbands? Well... What about the Chaos forces involved during the Sabbat World Crusades? Or the siege of Castellax? The large chaos force that is the lost and the damned in the EoT campaign (that is, the 13tg black crusade which field many renegade IG elements, hired guns and pirates and the like? And did Angron carried out his war without the Lost and the damned (oh, daemons a bit later)?

And mistake not that non-trusting is the only reason IoM is still around (well, that and plot armor), and to trust anyone is to risk the lives of millions. Anyone is vulnerable to corruption, sloth, greed, or delusions. And there is a very good reason why the inquisition is around. (That and fluffy wise the big I is set under direct order of the big E, and by the hands of Malcador.) intrigue and plot is the very machinations of the inquisition, and no one is worth trusting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Inquisition does watch the Sisters. They watch everyone who is not the God-Emperor of Mankind or the Custodes who have proven themselves beyond reproach.

However, unlike the Space Marines, the Sisters have exactly 0 studio characters ever falling to Chaos. None have ever decided to willingly serve the Ruinous Powers, and none have ever fallen to Chaos to become Chaos Sisters of Battle, unlike the Space Marines and half of the Emperor's own sons.

So while the Inquisition *does* watch the Sisters, and the Ecclesiarchy... it's not a particularly eventful watch. The Sisters are, in the main, a self-policing organization. In fact, if a given Sister even *thinks* she might have done something even *slightly* heretical, she's rabbiting off to her Sister Superior for a beating or assignment to the Sisters Repentia.

That is, is you will simply ignore the one short story that shall not be named;

despite being based on a card game, the story itself is BL publishing - and therefore canon; and I choose to see the incorruptibliness of the SoB as propaganda and they are not completely incorruptible.

But not studio... and there is no canon, apart from some very few basics. So you're free to believe whatever you want, but just remember that if you're going to walk into a discussion about SOB, you're quoting from a third-party source on a character that makes no Codex appearances.

ETA: Even if one were to accept the existence of Sabathiel, that still gives the Sisters a *much* better track record than the Space Marines for resisting Chaos. 1 woman out of however-many-millions since M36 versus the many-many-thousands of Space Marines, out of the many-millions there have ever been, who have turned, sometimes entire Chapters at a go, since M30. That the Inquisition may not keep as close an eye on the Sisters as they do the Marines only really makes sense, as the latter is obviously more suspect than the former... and also possesses the military hardware to be a more-immediate threat than the Sisters are, existing as they do in relatively small groups seeded throughout the Imperium.