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 Psienesis wrote:
But not studio... and there is no canon, apart from some very few basics. So you're free to believe whatever you want, but just remember that if you're going to walk into a discussion about SOB, you're quoting from a third-party source on a character that makes no Codex appearances.

BL is a part of GW just like FW, their words are canon.

No, no they aren't. 40K doesn't have a canon.

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about 'canonical background' will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history.

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."

- Marc Gascoigne, Chief Editor Black Library

Often folks ask if Black Library books are ‘canon’. With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. There are certainly established facts – the current Emperor is Karl-Franz, the Blood Angels have red armour, Commissar Yarrick defended Hades Hive during the Second Armageddon War. However, to suggest that anything else is non-canon is a disservice to the players and authors who participate in this world. To suggest that Black Library novels are somehow of lesser relevance to the background is to imply that every player who has created a unique Space Marine chapter or invented their own Elector Count is somehow wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong.

-- Gav Thorpe, on his blog: http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/

So given this, you can say that either everything is canon (even the things that are mutually exclusive) or none of it is, and pick and choose what you want to accept into your "headcanon", which seems to be the best route, and the one most take.

Additionally, BL author Aaron Dembski-Bowden made a post on here that said much the same thing. It's an interesting read. But the TL;DR of it is "It's all true and nothing is true".

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
But not studio... and there is no canon, apart from some very few basics. So you're free to believe whatever you want, but just remember that if you're going to walk into a discussion about SOB, you're quoting from a third-party source on a character that makes no Codex appearances.

BL is a part of GW just like FW, their words are canon.

Studio canon? White Dwarf canon? Black Library canon?

Saying that Black Library books are all canon is like saying that "Walter and the No-Need-to-Worry Suit" by Rachel Bright is canon in "White Tiger" by Kylie Chan - after all, those are both published by Harper Collins, so they must both be just as canon!

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
But not studio... and there is no canon, apart from some very few basics. So you're free to believe whatever you want, but just remember that if you're going to walk into a discussion about SOB, you're quoting from a third-party source on a character that makes no Codex appearances.

BL is a part of GW just like FW, their words are canon.

Studio canon? White Dwarf canon? Black Library canon?

Saying that Black Library books are all canon is like saying that "Walter and the No-Need-to-Worry Suit" by Rachel Bright is canon in "White Tiger" by Kylie Chan - after all, those are both published by Harper Collins, so they must both be just as canon!

And so the new Codex: Adeptas Sororitas is not canon. It's like saying because nobody likes Matt Wards his words aren't canon.
If it's got the offical gw logo on it, it's canon.

 Troike wrote:
I did recently, along with Hammer and Anvil. They're still pretty great SoB stories.

Well, I found the rebel character from Faith and Fire much more interesting that the Sisters, actually. Which is a bit sad. I have Hammer and Anvil, but I have not started reading it, as I still have 150 pages of A song of Ice and Fire left to read before.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Few fluffy details on non-marine Chaos warbands? Well... What about the Chaos forces involved during the Sabbat World Crusades? Or the siege of Castellax? The large chaos force that is the lost and the damned in the EoT campaign (that is, the 13tg black crusade which field many renegade IG elements, hired guns and pirates and the like?

That is a few. Also most if not all those warbands were under the dictature of Chaos marines, were they not ?
I can easily name a lot of legions and chapters that went to Chaos. I can not do the same of Imperial Guard regiment. It is because they are way more loyal and stuff.

 lcmiracle wrote:
And did Angron carried out his war without the Lost and the damned (oh, daemons a bit later)?

Do you mean World Eaters and daemons ?

 lcmiracle wrote:
And mistake not that non-trusting is the only reason IoM is still around (well, that and plot armor), and to trust anyone is to risk the lives of millions. Anyone is vulnerable to corruption, sloth, greed, or delusions. And there is a very good reason why the inquisition is around. (That and fluffy wise the big I is set under direct order of the big E, and by the hands of Malcador.) intrigue and plot is the very machinations of the inquisition, and no one is worth trusting.

Did I say anything contrary to that ?
You seem to believe that every Sister player see them as WardGK level of incorruptible. It is not true.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
But not studio... and there is no canon, apart from some very few basics. So you're free to believe whatever you want, but just remember that if you're going to walk into a discussion about SOB, you're quoting from a third-party source on a character that makes no Codex appearances.

BL is a part of GW just like FW, their words are canon.

Studio canon? White Dwarf canon? Black Library canon?

Saying that Black Library books are all canon is like saying that "Walter and the No-Need-to-Worry Suit" by Rachel Bright is canon in "White Tiger" by Kylie Chan - after all, those are both published by Harper Collins, so they must both be just as canon!

And so the new Codex: Adeptas Sororitas is not canon. It's like saying because nobody likes Matt Wards his words aren't canon.
If it's got the offical gw logo on it, it's canon.

Or isn't. Because that's simply how the setting works. It's all canon, and so nothing is canon, because one book can be completely contradictory to another book. So either one is true and the other isn't, or they both are true, or they're both false.

 lcmiracle wrote:

And so the new Codex: Adeptas Sororitas is not canon. It's like saying because nobody likes Matt Wards his words aren't canon.
If it's got the offical gw logo on it, it's canon.

You are free to disbelieve everything in C:AS. If you think the Sisters are a bunch of chaos cultists with stolen space marine gear, that's entirely up to you.

However, I reserve my right to disagree with you most vehemently.

That is what 'canon' means in 40k.

And you shall, I will disregard all references to CSMs because they are heresy and lies.


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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
Few fluffy details on non-marine Chaos warbands? Well... What about the Chaos forces involved during the Sabbat World Crusades? Or the siege of Castellax? The large chaos force that is the lost and the damned in the EoT campaign (that is, the 13tg black crusade which field many renegade IG elements, hired guns and pirates and the like?

That is a few. Also most if not all those warbands were under the dictature of Chaos marines, were they not ?
I can easily name a lot of legions and chapters that went to Chaos. I can not do the same of Imperial Guard regiment. It is because they are way more loyal and stuff.

And just because they are mostly led by CSMs, that means the LtD aren't are a significant part of CSM warbands?

Guardsmen aren't more loyal, and certainly aren't more "stuffs" which I translate to heresy.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
And did Angron carried out his war without the Lost and the damned (oh, daemons a bit later)?

Do you mean World Eaters and daemons ?

Yes, World Eaters warbands, with hereticus -- questions?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
And mistake not that non-trusting is the only reason IoM is still around (well, that and plot armor), and to trust anyone is to risk the lives of millions. Anyone is vulnerable to corruption, sloth, greed, or delusions. And there is a very good reason why the inquisition is around. (That and fluffy wise the big I is set under direct order of the big E, and by the hands of Malcador.) intrigue and plot is the very machinations of the inquisition, and no one is worth trusting.

Did I say anything contrary to that ?
You seem to believe that every Sister player see them as WardGK level of incorruptible. It is not true.

Or did you mean to say that the SoB are even more incorruptible than WardGK?

 lcmiracle wrote:
And just because they are mostly led by CSMs, that means the LtD aren't are a significant part of CSM warbands?

I do not know, is there even a valid LtD codex still usable now ?
If not, then it is probably not a faction central to the setting .

 lcmiracle wrote:

"Whole armies of Imperial Guardsmen trun traitor and use treachery as well as their battle skills to destroy the chosen of the Emperor"
Codex: Eye of Terror. p22.

- 9 original legions
- Crimson blades
- Relictors
- Red Corsairs
And that is just the biggest stars.
Now, name twelve regiments of Imperial Guard who fell to Chaos.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Guardsmen aren't more loyal, and certainly aren't more "stuffs" which I translate to heresy.

They are. They do not become traitors nearly as often.

 lcmiracle wrote:

Spoiler:

"One amongst the mortal visitors to his realm still looms large in the memory of Slaanesh, however - a wandering knight of the Adeptus Astartes whose will was as strong as silvered adamantium.
...
It was there, beneath the elegant spires, that the wanderer came before almighty Slaanesh. Statuesque and divinely glamorous, the deity visited him in the form of a yound man possessed of an androgynous beauty - clean limbed and fresh with the vigour of youth. The knight unsheathed his rune-etched sword and made to strike hime down. To his horror, he found that he could not, for the god-prince was disarming in his innocence and utterly beguiling in his manner.
Even the purest flame can be extinguished by the tide. In that single moment of doubt the wanderer was lost. He knelt, bowing his head at last, and a single tough of the being's glowing sceptre on each shoulder sealed his fate for eternity."
-- "Slaanesh: The Dark Prince", Codex: Chaos Daemons, 6e, p16, 17.Kelly, Phil"

Or did you mean to say that the SoB are even more incorruptible than WardGK?

I have no damn idea what you mean.

Sisters are supposed to be 100% incorruptible.

The Grey Knights have a 'redeemed' Aspiring Champion of Khorne amongst their number.

You do the math (or disregard my sources as not fitting into your headcanon).

>< Maybe I should swap one of my sig quotes for that line.

 lcmiracle wrote:
And you shall, I will disregard all references to CSMs because they are heresy and lies.

I don't think that anyone is advocating anything so extreme as ignoring an entire faction's existence. Rather, just things such as details about a faction or the setting. For example, Sandy Mitchell has the Schola Progenium running quite differently to how the studio fluff portrayed them. However, with how 40K canon works, he was allowed to do that, and one could pick whichever depiction of the Schola that they wanted.

@Hybrid Son Of Oxayolt
Lost and the damned is not a viable choice because they are essentially heretics.
Also, the Lost and the Damned have not been rectoned.

And yes, Guardsmen turn traitor frequently.






The IG does not need your pureness snowflake, they are what they are and they know what they do best. They'll put down their traitors amongst their ranks where it is found -- for none is free from the taint of Chaos


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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Sisters are supposed to be 100% incorruptible.

The Grey Knights have a 'redeemed' Aspiring Champion of Khorne amongst their number.

You do the math (or disregard my sources as not fitting into your headcanon).

>< Maybe I should swap one of my sig quotes for that line.

Nah, they were just doing what has to be done. ...Damn armour paint won't stick...

 lcmiracle wrote:
Lost and the damned is not a viable choice because they are essentially heretics.

.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Also, the Lost and the Damned have not been rectoned.

Yes, they are just not very numerous compared to chaos marines, and therefore do not have rules.

 lcmiracle wrote:
And yes, Guardsmen turn traitor frequently.

Why are you going through lengthy rants to discredit other factions of the Imperium ?

 lcmiracle wrote:
The IG does not need your pureness snowflake

Who said they were snowflakes ? I just said they do fall, but not often. Unlike marines. Marines often fall.

 lcmiracle wrote:
for none is free from the taint of Chaos

It is true. But marines are especially tainted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Grey Knights have a 'redeemed' Aspiring Champion of Khorne amongst their number.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
Lost and the damned is not a viable choice because they are essentially heretics.

.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Also, the Lost and the Damned have not been rectoned.

Yes, they are just not very numerous compared to chaos marines, and therefore do not have rules.

I shall waste no more breath on someone who understands not Gameplay and Story Segregation.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
And yes, Guardsmen turn traitor frequently.

Why are you going through lengthy rants to discredit other factions of the Imperium ?

Or were you going out of your ways to praise a faction in order to discredit another? I've never said once that the IGs aren't dependable -- they simply, as with all forces of mortal -- cannot be fully trusted. Be them the AdMech, the IG, the Imperial Navy, Assassinorum, the Astartes including the GK, the Ministorum, and with it, the Sororitas.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
The IG does not need your pureness snowflake

Who said they were snowflakes ? I just said they do fall, but not often. Unlike marines. Marines often fall.

And sisters often loss because no enough authors write about them -- well, not enough about them winning anyways... Just because many people write about the marines turning renegade doesn't mean the settings do not implied other Imperial Forces turn traitor, nor how often they do it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
for none is free from the taint of Chaos

It is true. But marines are especially tainted.

 lcmiracle wrote:
And sisters often loss

Not as often as many think. They actually have plenty of victories in the studio fluff, as well as a decent amount in BL. It's just that many of these stories tend to be less prominent/obscure.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Or was this original sin not applicable to the Brides of the Emperor, for their blinding faith in a false prophet is not heretical?

To be fair, they're much more careful about that these days. Case in point, we've established that one of their jobs is to keep and eye on the Ecclesiarchy.

That's not to say they can't be tricked, but it's less likely than before.

 lcmiracle wrote:
If anything, repentia, you are still blinded. Which, btw, is in fact true according to your profile image.

There's no fluff that states that Repentia get blinded, same story for their models.

Artwork can be a little exagerrated or different to the fluff/models, at times. I mean, we've never seen anything quite like the Blanche Sister anywhere else!

Blinded, rather than blinding, I think.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Or were you going out of your ways to praise a faction in order to discredit another?

Me ? No, I would never do that .

 lcmiracle wrote:
I've never said once that the IGs aren't dependable -- they simply, as with all forces of mortal -- cannot be fully trusted.

Yeah, we have established that. Nobody can be trusted. Nobody is magically immune to corruption. But the difference between Marines and the other organizations is that Marines can be trusted to turn traitor at the first occasion .

 lcmiracle wrote:
Just because many people write about the marines turning renegade doesn't mean the settings do not implied other Imperial Forces turn traitor, nor how often they do it.

Well, there is still an awful lot of marines going traitor at every possible occasion.

 lcmiracle wrote:
How come? Because half of the Legion Astartes turned traitor during the HH?

That, and after the Heresy.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Well there was also half the Imperial Army turned traitor, half the Admech turned to Chaos.

Half ? Are you sure ?

 lcmiracle wrote:
Or was this original sin not applicable to the Brides of the Emperor, for their blinding faith in a false prophet is not heretical?

They never gave in to Chaos worship, and the current incarnation of the Sisters was basically founded by the Emperor, so... no. No treachery, no treason, no heresy, just misguidance.

 lcmiracle wrote:
If anything, repentia, you are still blinded. Which, btw, is in fact true according to your profile image.

You do not need your eyes to see and walk the true path He choose for you .

The Brides of the Emperor were duped into believing Vandire was a prophet because they had never seen a Refractor Field before. This is not particularly unusual in the Imperium, where some worlds are at a Stone Age level of technology (that is, fire is considered the height of invention).

Given that, it's pretty easy to see why they backed him for as long as they did, until some sort of event transpired in the presence of the Golden Throne that changed their minds.

 Troike wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
And sisters often loss

Not as often as many think. They actually have plenty of victories in the studio fluff, as well as a decent amount in BL. It's just that many of these stories tend to be less prominent/obscure.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Or was this original sin not applicable to the Brides of the Emperor, for their blinding faith in a false prophet is not heretical?

To be fair, they're much more careful about that these days. Case in point, we've established that one of their jobs is to keep and eye on the Ecclesiarchy.

 lcmiracle wrote:
If anything, repentia, you are still blinded. Which, btw, is in fact true according to your profile image.

There's no fluff that states that Repentia get blinded, same story for their models.

Artwork can be a little exagerrated or different to the fluff/models, at times. I mean, we've never seen anything quite like the Blanche Sister anywhere else!

Troike, I elected not to offend you because I see you to be a more reasonable person than I am -- so would you see who I was talking to, and what arguments I held against him/her?

So are SM more tainted compared to every other forces of the Imperium? Are the IGs not also vulnerable to the lure of Chaos?
I care not to offend everyone on the board just to hold my point.

More tainted? No, not compared to every other faction in the Imperium (that would be the "Regular Joes" faction... that is, the teeming masses of regular humans who make up the ranks of cultists, recidivists, traitors and rebels), but certainly so compared to the Sisterhood.

 Psienesis wrote:
More tainted? No, not compared to every other faction in the Imperium (that would be the "Regular Joes" faction... that is, the teeming masses of regular humans who make up the ranks of cultists, recidivists, traitors and rebels), but certainly so compared to the Sisterhood.

Perhaps -- but purity doesn't win wars; faith works all well and good, 'cept the times it doesn't work.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Troike, I elected not to offend you because I see you to be a more reasonable person than I am -- so would you see who I was talking to, and what arguments I held against him/her?

So are SM more tainted compared to every other forces of the Imperium? Are the IGs not also vulnerable to the lure of Chaos?
I care not to offend everyone on the board just to hold my point.

Hmmm? Nothing you've said has offended me. I did follow your conversation with Oxayotl, but didn't happen to join in.

As for your second point, of course not. I do think that the Sisters have the better track record, but would agree that the average IG would be more susceptible to corruption that the average SM.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Perhaps -- but purity doesn't win wars; faith works all well and good, unless when it doesn't.

Though faith does grant the Sisters excellent motivation, as well as their signature AoFs and SoF. Those are all pretty useful for wars.

Ecclesiarch Deacis IX wrote: No army is big enough to conquer the galaxy, but faith alone can overturn the universe.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

They are. They do not become traitors nearly as often.

Yeah, I know you're just looking to flamebait/trollbait/get attention or whatever, but just to answer this.

1. Guardsmen take much smaller risks as a whole. They usually only risk death on the battlefield, not corruption. If there is a Daemon able to corrupt almost everything in its path, it will disproportionally often be Marines who face it down rather than an equivalent percentage of Guardsmen, compared to the total numbers of SM and IG.

Stronger soldiers, facing much greater risks. Of course it seems like a lot of them fall, they are often put in corruption's way because it is they who have the greatest chance of those available to succeed.

Guardsmen would hardly have resisted the corruption that befell the Abyssal Crusade Marines.

2. Marines get a much greater presence in fluff. Compared to their numbers, Marines are disproportionally often the focus of fluff texts. This, of course, includes situations where Marines turn, making it seem like they are many. In truth, the Lost and the Damned outnumber the Traitor Marines so many times over so it is not even funny.

So yeah, this bait was sorta amusing at first, but got very old very fast, and it seems more like an asinine attempt to rustle jimmies for gaks and giggles than anything else.

Excuse my bluntness.

 Psienesis wrote:

Ecclesiarch Deacis IX wrote: No army is big enough to conquer the galaxy, but faith alone can overturn the universe.

I agree -- if I were an Ork.

The Imperial Creed in-universely is used both to control the populace, and, to some extend, counter Chaos -- I said to some extend because worlds in the settings, both in the Codexs and other "non-canon" publishings, has shown that, when faced with a potential "better life", be it a mutated blade growing out from your head that somehow grant you command of some other chaos cultis, or a more "reasonable" trade contract with the Tau Empire. Be it to over turn their superior or simply to live another day in the rat-filled underhive, many mortals are willing to forsake their previous allegiance to the Imperium and the Emperor, and cast themselves amongst the ranks of xenos and chaos alike. Burn and slay all you might you cannot weed them all out.

And how much of the faith the sisters has been raised to have can pass down to the common city dwellers, one amongst trillions, on one planet amongst millions? The Schola Progenium cannot spread their faith such thoroughly, not matter what they say -- the claim of the Ecclesiarch is as much as a delusion as that of the "Greater Good".

Oh, here's another quote for ya:

Dolan Chirosius wrote:"It is the story of a man who did insane things because he put in practice what many Saints have preached.
the Ministorum Libra Martyr"

Well... not exactly. I mean, most of the BL books are positioned from the POV of the protagonist faction, whether thats IG or SM or Arbites or whoever.... but, generally speaking, when Daemons show up, it is the GK that are sent to deal with them, but there's already human boots on the ground, whether that's IG or Arbites or whatever. Someone's already there fighting when a Daemon is summoned or things transpire to give it the bridge it needs to come into reality. The Space Marines, more often than not, have to be called to come deal with it, since the IG are in a thousand times the number of conflicts than the SM are.

Plus, you don't need Daemons to become Corrupted. Hell, an entire Space Wolf detachment turned Traitor just seeing some Chaos Space Marines during the Badab War. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time can get you Tainted. Having the wrong idle thought at the precise wrong place can get you Tainted, if not outright Possessed. Chaos is tricksy that way.

And, my point is, this is not something that Marines are innately more vulnerable to.

But neither are they really innately more resistant to, either. It seems to vary more by individuals than it is a SM vs Not SM thing.

It varies heavily by individuals for sure... But I have a hard time believing psycho-conditioning is useless here.