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When Person A refutes Person B's refutation of A's refutation of B's refutation of A's initial point, and you have four layers of nested quotes, I think it's time to agree to disagree and move on....

I am sure the guy who ran this is great, but their is a major difference between a standin army like these samurai models are my Nippon army using the Empire rules or something for example and a MLP Bretonnian army. One coincides with the fluff and the realm of warhammer the other does not. If you want to run a MLP army you should be playing a MLP tabletop game or be playing in friendly games with people who want to play against it.

TO's are just people and all people including myself are biased if he personally thought the army was clever/funny/cool or whatever that is fine, but he should not have allowed it UNLESS the rules of the tournament were openly "we accept all standin armies of any kind" or something to that effect.

If I went to the army with the earlier suggested polly pocket army to represent say Demons of Chaos and used Barbies as Daemon Princes it would be a fitting Daemonette army that is a fun theme that people potentially would think is neat, but it is not a Warhammer Army. It should not be allowed at official events unless the event is meant for joke armies and is built around that idea.

The dude who ran this is also not really to blame he just wanted to do something unique which is great. I would suggest doing fun Battle Reports on Youtube with the ponies and use the shows intro song or something at the start of each one and you would maybe wrangle other bronies to play warhammer.

 timofeo wrote:
but it is not a Warhammer Army. It should not be allowed at official events

You might not be aware, but there hasn't been an official warhammer event outside of Games Day in... a decade? Has it been a decade already? Tournaments for GW games are all run independently from GW, except any run at GD. (So far as I know... I know Cross Roads is in the independent group, however.) It isn't clear why something needs to be a "Warhammer army." If you mean "An army predominantly made of GW's model lines" that is a bit of a hard sell considering how popular other companies' models are as counts-as. If you mean "Vaguely gothic medieval high fantasy styled" that cuts out the Nippon army you mentioned. If you mean "Things with hands... and swords maybe. Maybe tentacles." you can probably extend that requirement to most armies that usually see play, though some chaos demons armies will push the limit.

Nice job winning so big with Brets, I can't get them to work for me.

No opinion on the choice of models, I appreciate the tactics side of things.

Yay! 4,000 views!

scarletsquig wrote:Just a question for everyone in this thread - Would your opinion change if the ponies were proper wargames minis cast in metal and fully painted and based?

Do they meet the event rules? No. Not WYSIWYG. Therefore, not acceptable.

Just trying to figure out what the mane problem is, the ponies themselves or the fact that its cheap unpainted kids toys glued onto bases?

That they're cheap unpainted kids toys is not really the issue I have. It's that they violate the rules of the event that people paid money to play in. If the event rules said it's legal to play with happy meal toys, then that's cool, and people who don't want to play against happy meal toys can save their money and stay home. If the event says all models must be fully painted, based, and WYSIWYG, then people attending the event have a reasonable expectation that they will be playing against fully painted, based, WYSIWYG armies.

Narenzade wrote:
Yay! 4,000 views!

And hopefully most of them just enjoyed the pony pictures on page one rather than reading on through the three pages of increasingly petty wrangling!

 SisterSydney wrote:
When Person A refutes Person B's refutation of A's refutation of B's refutation of A's initial point, and you have four layers of nested quotes, I think it's time to agree to disagree and move on....

Since you think its petty.....someone(/sarc) posted some GREAT (in their humble opinion) advice.....

Didn't mean to diss you.... I've been gettin' pretty picayune myself.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Didn't mean to diss you.... I've been gettin' pretty picayune myself.

Out of curiosity, if I came to a tourney with this army, would you be championing me too?

Meh. Doesn't have the visual oomph of My Little Ponies or Barbie dolls. If you had cooler and more colorful paper models, sure.

But yeah, I wouldn't have any problem playing you. Back in grad school, we played WHFB using homemade paper counters with cut-up cereal boxes for backing to make up for our lack of money, time, and modeling talent. So I'm gleefully indiscriminate.

I agree with Sister Sydney; I wouldn't mind playing you with a cut out army. Hell, it looks better than some of the painted armies I have seen, where the paint is adding negative value to the bare models.
I would be really surprised if you didn't get tanked on the soft scores like painting and modeling as per the rules of the event, but the game's the thing.

Maybe a fun game- but a cut-out army does not meet the painting requirements for a GT. A well converted counts-as army, such as what Wehrkind mentioned (centaurs) is quite different to the above. "Rule of cool" doesn't usually allow paper cut outs at a GT level event . Every event's model policy is different, but I don't know of any that would allow that.

 Wehrkind wrote:

 timofeo wrote:
but it is not a Warhammer Army. It should not be allowed at official events

You might not be aware, but there hasn't been an official warhammer event outside of Games Day in... a decade? Has it been a decade already? Tournaments for GW games are all run independently from GW, except any run at GD. (So far as I know... I know Cross Roads is in the independent group, however.) It isn't clear why something needs to be a "Warhammer army." If you mean "An army predominantly made of GW's model lines" that is a bit of a hard sell considering how popular other companies' models are as counts-as. If you mean "Vaguely gothic medieval high fantasy styled" that cuts out the Nippon army you mentioned. If you mean "Things with hands... and swords maybe. Maybe tentacles." you can probably extend that requirement to most armies that usually see play, though some chaos demons armies will push the limit.

Official as in "A Tournament to play Warhammer"

In Warhammer there is no MLP, using other companies figures is fine as long as they represent something in the Warhammer World. Nippon cannot be cut out as they are in the Warhammer fluff MLP once again is not, Bretonnian Knights painted with MLP color scheme while silly and not in the "fluff" are legitimate because there is Bretonnians out there with different heraldry from the armybook, but literally taking MLP figures and gluing them to bases is not a good attempt at meshing the world of MLP with Warhammer or representing MLP in Warhammer its more or less a joke (which I imagine was its point as a JOKE not a real army) the question is should we be taking joke armies to tournaments that have wysiwyg rules? Also on a side note if this is allowed then all armies should be allowed as to not show favortism if this is legit then any army on correct bases should in turn be legit should they not?

 timofeo wrote:

 Wehrkind wrote:

 timofeo wrote:
but it is not a Warhammer Army. It should not be allowed at official events

You might not be aware, but there hasn't been an official warhammer event outside of Games Day in... a decade? Has it been a decade already? Tournaments for GW games are all run independently from GW, except any run at GD. (So far as I know... I know Cross Roads is in the independent group, however.) It isn't clear why something needs to be a "Warhammer army." If you mean "An army predominantly made of GW's model lines" that is a bit of a hard sell considering how popular other companies' models are as counts-as. If you mean "Vaguely gothic medieval high fantasy styled" that cuts out the Nippon army you mentioned. If you mean "Things with hands... and swords maybe. Maybe tentacles." you can probably extend that requirement to most armies that usually see play, though some chaos demons armies will push the limit.

Official as in "A Tournament to play Warhammer"

In Warhammer there is no MLP, using other companies figures is fine as long as they represent something in the Warhammer World. Nippon cannot be cut out as they are in the Warhammer fluff MLP once again is not, Bretonnian Knights painted with MLP color scheme while silly and not in the "fluff" are legitimate because there is Bretonnians out there with different heraldry from the armybook, but literally taking MLP figures and gluing them to bases is not a good attempt at meshing the world of MLP with Warhammer or representing MLP in Warhammer its more or less a joke (which I imagine was its point as a JOKE not a real army) the question is should we be taking joke armies to tournaments that have wysiwyg rules? Also on a side note if this is allowed then all armies should be allowed as to not show favortism if this is legit then any army on correct bases should in turn be legit should they not?

Is Nippon even in the fluff anymore? I don't recall it in the BRB. I thought they had pretty much squatted Nippon, Albion and whatever the Amazons were called.
I do get what you are saying, that there is a sort of vague code of "appropriate" when it comes to models, even if it functions in a "I will know it when I see it" kind of way. The trouble I have with that sort of thing is that there are rules for covering that aspect: the modeling and painting scores. The problem I have with saying the ponies should be banned, is that even though they are really silly, they are colored (painted, but I will touch on that in a moment), they are 3d models and not cut outs, and you can tell what are special characters/models to a pretty good degree (much better than some armies I have seen). I have yet to see any tournament that requires models fit some sort of quasi medieval fantasy theme. Fortunately, the rules allow players to tank the hell out of the offensive army's soft scores if they don't like it. The army in question swept 5 for 5, but placed what, 40 out of 80? That sounds like a working system of social control to me.

As to the painting thing, lots of people are complaining that they are unpainted toys. Sure, there is not acrylic or oil based medium holding colored pigment dried upon their surface. However, they are colorful, with said color in the right places such that the eye knows what it is looking at. If someone were to invent a 3d printer that could print out nice crisp models with different colors for the different parts, it would seem weird to dock that person for not having put brush to model. Likewise someone who has someone else paint their army is usually not docked painting points.

I guess what it comes down to is that I don't like banning people from tournaments when they follow the letter of the rules and there is another way for players to punish them for an unappealing army (soft scores, not curb party in the parking lot!) Maybe it is just because I play LOT of counts as models, and am really picky about painting myself, or was before I started school again, that I am sensitive about people wanting to ban people for not using the "right" models. I just think that if the rules are set up such that the player base can determine that someone is entirely unable to win over all just by virtue of having an army people don't like to see, that is a plenty strong feedback mechanism.

 Wehrkind wrote:

 timofeo wrote:

 Wehrkind wrote:

 timofeo wrote:
but it is not a Warhammer Army. It should not be allowed at official events

You might not be aware, but there hasn't been an official warhammer event outside of Games Day in... a decade? Has it been a decade already? Tournaments for GW games are all run independently from GW, except any run at GD. (So far as I know... I know Cross Roads is in the independent group, however.) It isn't clear why something needs to be a "Warhammer army." If you mean "An army predominantly made of GW's model lines" that is a bit of a hard sell considering how popular other companies' models are as counts-as. If you mean "Vaguely gothic medieval high fantasy styled" that cuts out the Nippon army you mentioned. If you mean "Things with hands... and swords maybe. Maybe tentacles." you can probably extend that requirement to most armies that usually see play, though some chaos demons armies will push the limit.

Official as in "A Tournament to play Warhammer"

In Warhammer there is no MLP, using other companies figures is fine as long as they represent something in the Warhammer World. Nippon cannot be cut out as they are in the Warhammer fluff MLP once again is not, Bretonnian Knights painted with MLP color scheme while silly and not in the "fluff" are legitimate because there is Bretonnians out there with different heraldry from the armybook, but literally taking MLP figures and gluing them to bases is not a good attempt at meshing the world of MLP with Warhammer or representing MLP in Warhammer its more or less a joke (which I imagine was its point as a JOKE not a real army) the question is should we be taking joke armies to tournaments that have wysiwyg rules? Also on a side note if this is allowed then all armies should be allowed as to not show favortism if this is legit then any army on correct bases should in turn be legit should they not?

Is Nippon even in the fluff anymore? I don't recall it in the BRB. I thought they had pretty much squatted Nippon, Albion and whatever the Amazons were called.
I do get what you are saying, that there is a sort of vague code of "appropriate" when it comes to models, even if it functions in a "I will know it when I see it" kind of way. The trouble I have with that sort of thing is that there are rules for covering that aspect: the modeling and painting scores. The problem I have with saying the ponies should be banned, is that even though they are really silly, they are colored (painted, but I will touch on that in a moment), they are 3d models and not cut outs, and you can tell what are special characters/models to a pretty good degree (much better than some armies I have seen). I have yet to see any tournament that requires models fit some sort of quasi medieval fantasy theme. Fortunately, the rules allow players to tank the hell out of the offensive army's soft scores if they don't like it. The army in question swept 5 for 5, but placed what, 40 out of 80? That sounds like a working system of social control to me.

As to the painting thing, lots of people are complaining that they are unpainted toys. Sure, there is not acrylic or oil based medium holding colored pigment dried upon their surface. However, they are colorful, with said color in the right places such that the eye knows what it is looking at. If someone were to invent a 3d printer that could print out nice crisp models with different colors for the different parts, it would seem weird to dock that person for not having put brush to model. Likewise someone who has someone else paint their army is usually not docked painting points.

I guess what it comes down to is that I don't like banning people from tournaments when they follow the letter of the rules and there is another way for players to punish them for an unappealing army (soft scores, not curb party in the parking lot!) Maybe it is just because I play LOT of counts as models, and am really picky about painting myself, or was before I started school again, that I am sensitive about people wanting to ban people for not using the "right" models. I just think that if the rules are set up such that the player base can determine that someone is entirely unable to win over all just by virtue of having an army people don't like to see, that is a plenty strong feedback mechanism.

I dont personally think they look bad they just do not represent any form of warhammer army. Nippon is in the BRB its a country on the map which means its not squatted. There are many toys that could easily be made into fun armies that would look just as good as this MLP army and just as well thought out from those who would run them, but if they are all to be allowed it should be all of them and it should be in the tournaments rules that way people who do not want to play against them wont come. There is a reason I do not play other games and there is a reason I buy Warhammer models I like the lore, I like the visual appeal of the game if I wanted to play a game with different visuals I would play a different game.

As a Brony, I approve of this army. I wouldn't have a big enough pair to bring this to a GT, that's for sure.

Congrats on your Best General!

(And don't let the haters get you down!)

This reminds me of the time I used these little easter chicks in place of zombies for my old vampire counts army when I was like 13-14yrs old xD



Their constant glare-like expression made them work so well.
Of course until I got legitimate zombies no one but my own circuit of friends would play me, which looking back I can completely understand as in regards to this pony army I think I can actually say that I would turn around and refuse to play the army, with just cause as well.

But that is to say that because anyone outside of the owners immediate friend group would immediately feel like they are being trolled. To me it is no different then the uneducated kids I used to have to put up with when I was in high school that used to come in and make fun of "Playing with toys" and then proceed to pick them up and start making random-ass sound affects while they knocked the miniatures into one another.

The fact that its also linked with MLP (for me at least) would make this trolling into a full blown kick in the ass because I've had to stand idly by enough brony attention grabbing antics as it is on just about every other game/hobby forum I've been on. Mech warrior a good example of their in your face infestation.

But to digress, its good to see all the professional responses from the OT, and I can see and understand that its intention was their to be a laugh but at the same time find it hard for anyone that took part alongside it to not feel like they were being trolled. If the person who was taking it was in my own friend group I would have even accused him of deliberately trolling because well, its just not the done thing xD.

So if a player were to show up with a Nazi themed army would all the pro-pony theme folks here be as sympathetic to their choice of army?

Mik wrote:
So if a player were to show up with a Nazi themed army would all the pro-pony theme folks here be as sympathetic to attacks made against their choice of army?

Uhm... wait. Are you saying the people who are defending the use of ponies would support attacks against a Nazi themed army?

Back up and try your post again. I don't think you meant what you typed.

You are correct, my bad.

Mik wrote:
So if a player were to show up with a Nazi themed army would all the pro-pony theme folks here be as sympathetic to their choice of army?

1) No, because Ponies are awesome and Nazis are not. I understand My Little Pony annoys and offends some people, but the Nazis go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond that. I would suggest even the most hardcore Pony-hater would agree that they are less bad than Hitler.

2) There is an issue in this fandom with Nazi and Stalinist imagery showing up in some Imperium of Man iconography -- the skull-and-eagle iconography and the Commissars in particular -- and some artwork may well cross the line between "we are evoking this imagery of real-world evil to convey the idea that our fictional Imperium is pretty brutal place" and "we are evoking this imagery of real-world evil because it is wicked cool." I think most grown-up fans can tell the difference, but I suspect there are misguided people out there that might paint up a Nazi-themed army. That is a can of worms I wish to point to, from a safe distance, and then leave alone.

I suppose this could be trolling...but I'd at least give the guy a chance to show me that it is, in fact, not.
Just like, when my opponent puts down a legit army, I have to wait and see if, despite the look of his army, he is in fact a jerk.

And yes. Nazis are worse than Ponies. Sheesh, people. It's a game.

Yes, Nazis are worse than Ponies but my point is that neither belongs in a WH universe so where do we draw the line?

There is no one line. There are many lines, drawn at different places by different gaming groups and tournament organizers.

They're not even straight lines: eg one strict TO may say "no non-GW models, but if you want to paint your Bretonnians up as My Little Ponies, whatever," while another equally strict TO may say "use whatever models as long as the final look is appropriate for the Warhammer setting , which means no Pony paint schemes." (I would think both of them are being a little too restrictive, but it's their hypothetical tournament, not mine).

So it's less like "where do we draw the line" and more like "which parts of the Venn diagram do we want this time?" But I am fairly confident that Nazi-themed armies are outside most of the lines, whoever is drawing them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: since the Internet is heaven for taking things out of context, allow me to make clear I am not objecting to people painting Nazi iconography on miniatures that are supposed to represent actual historical forces of the Nazi Party. I'm not opposed to people collecting Nazi historical memorabilia, either, though I'd be more comfortable if they didn't wear it to my house or place of work. But if you want to bring real-world evil into a fantasy/science-fiction game, you're really going to have to make a hell of case before I'm going to be okay with you doing that.

Godwin's law has been confirmed once more !

Anyway, the real reason why Ponies are better than Nazis is that it's perfectly fine to eat Ponies, eating Nazis is bad !

Wait, when we say Nazi armies are bad... does that mean you can't have any WW2 German themed IG armies in 40k? Coz I personally have no problem with that. I have some FW190's, Bf109's and Tigers sitting on my display shelf. Maybe not in WHFB, but I think a Nazi themed Imperial Guard army is quite appropriate.

No, the idea is that "glorifying Nazis" is bad .. Just like glorifying most ideologies to be honest
I play FoW among other things, fielding Germans of all varieties. Playing a Waffen-SS army doesn't make you a Nazi, like playing a T-34 horde doesn't turn you into a Communist

edit: Also keep in mind that the large majority of Germans were just normal guys doing their duty, and that at this period of History, being anti-semitic was "normal" behaviour as the Jews were still regarded as the default scapegoat of all societies' problems

Yes, even in WWII, German did not automatically mean Nazi, and casual anti-semitism, while vile, does not automatically mean genocidal anti-semitism. The degree to which "ordinary Germans" were implicated in the Holocaust is one of the most contentious questions of the last six decades, but it doesn't make moral sense to equate the average Werhmacht foot soldier to Hitler.

So I'd have no problem with Wehrmacht-themed Imperial Guard, myself. (Isn't that what the Armageddon Steel Legion boil down to?) Just please keep the swastikas and runic lightning bolts off, because those are Nazi- and SS-specific symbols respectively. Uh, and I guess we're sort of stuck with the death's heads (totenkopf), which is a bigger issue with GW.

But there was Swastikas on German vehicles as well, and if you're doing a German WW2 themed army I don't really see the problem with using the appropriate iconography on banners and such. I have several German aircraft on my display shelf with Swastikas on the tails, I don't see it as glorifying Nazism any more than I'd see IG with German WW2 iconography glorifying Nazism or playing a WW2 video game as glorifying Nazism.

Sorry to take the thread off the wonderful topic it's on I just don't see what makes an army an "nazi army" vs "german WW2 themed army with fitting iconography", or what makes it less appropriate than, say, a red sun on your models which could potentially represent a WW2 japanese army with all their atrocities (they still use the rising sun flag, but the same could be said about the swastika, go to india and you'll see it plastered everywhere).