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 Weboflies wrote:
The basic Space Marine has changed very little since Rogue Trader, and despite things like ATSKNF and cost decreases, they haven't kept up with the power creep in the game.

Would it be fair to say that this is true for the basic infantry squads of every army? In terms of power creep, I mean. Eldar can put out a ridiculous amount of firepower but it doesn't seem to be the Guardians that are doing it.

It seems to me that 7th edition allows some units to put out ludicrous amounts of firepower, and allows other units to stack buffs and become almost unkillable, and puts very little restrictions on the number of those units that a player can take. In such an environment I think that basic infantry is really going to suffer.

One nice thing about 7th edition is that if you have an idea for a fun and fluffy army you can make it work, but that flexibility also allows for a lot of minmaxing. I hope the next edition can manage to keep the flexibility but tone down the minmaxing a bit. I'm sure that's way easier said than done.

My personal preference is that basic Troops choices be one of the best choices in any codex, and not just a tax. I like the idea that Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support can do a lot of damage in the right situation, but for the points a normal Troops unit (like a Tactical Squad) is going to be a good choice because it can be useful outside of a narrow specialty. Again, that's probably easier said than done.

Yeah, basic troops choices have stayed static while everything else has shifted up in power. Which is a shame, as thematically they should be encouraged to be taken more than any other kind of unit. It's gotten to the point that people reacted as if it was a breath of fresh air when they can take non-troops as troops back in fifth, and now they don't even necessarily need them at all with the right formation.

going to echo the new more powerful marines likely just being the Custodes which we have leaked pics of box set, units, and a new codex... so pretty convincing evidence for them being the new more elite than space marines army. Another possibility though unlikely might be a reworked fallen angels who side with papa smurf and cypher.

as for all the talk of a normal tac marine being not good... they are better than average for troops. 3+ armor, always regrouping, combat squads, a decent statline all for 14 points per model is something orks, tyranids, dark elder, guard, chaos demons. really only Craftworld eldar, necrons, mechanicum, and tau are arguably any better for the points (scatter laser bikes being way above the power anymodel should get for the points, the rest being better for the points but only just slightly)

 G00fySmiley wrote:

as for all the talk of a normal tac marine being not good... they are better than average for troops. 3+ armor, always regrouping, combat squads, a decent statline all for 14 points per model is something orks, tyranids, dark elder, guard, chaos demons. really only Craftworld eldar, necrons, mechanicum, and tau are arguably any better for the points (scatter laser bikes being way above the power anymodel should get for the points, the rest being better for the points but only just slightly)

It's true, marines are still awesome as a basic troop, especially when compared to other basic troops. Unfortunately the game has pushed many other units beyond the reach of the un-upgraded marine, and people can build entire armies out of these units that are nigh-undamageable by the basic models. It's not that those models shouldn't exist (IMO), but the balance is off.

However, If you restrict yourself/your group to armies which are more basic-infantry focused, Marines vs. Orks or Marines vs. Eldar Guardians/Most Aspect Warriors still make for really good games.

If you show up with Marine infantry with Missile Launchers vs. a Riptide Wing or similar, it's not a fun game. Which is too bad, that's a sort of thing which should be viable. If whatever GW is doing can help that situation, I'm all for it. I'd like to be able to fire anti-tank rockets at a big machine and have some effect.

I don't know. Depends on how you look at it. Tactical marines are a pretty expensive tax for a unit that can do nothing in the 7th ed meta. I'd like to lose fewer points when that ion accelerator hits, myself.

Insectum7 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

as for all the talk of a normal tac marine being not good... they are better than average for troops. 3+ armor, always regrouping, combat squads, a decent statline all for 14 points per model is something orks, tyranids, dark elder, guard, chaos demons. really only Craftworld eldar, necrons, mechanicum, and tau are arguably any better for the points (scatter laser bikes being way above the power anymodel should get for the points, the rest being better for the points but only just slightly)

It's true, marines are still awesome as a basic troop, especially when compared to other basic troops. Unfortunately the game has pushed many other units beyond the reach of the un-upgraded marine, and people can build entire armies out of these units that are nigh-undamageable by the basic models. It's not that those models shouldn't exist (IMO), but the balance is off.

However, If you restrict yourself/your group to armies which are more basic-infantry focused, Marines vs. Orks or Marines vs. Eldar Guardians/Most Aspect Warriors still make for really good games.

If you show up with Marine infantry with Missile Launchers vs. a Riptide Wing or similar, it's not a fun game. Which is too bad, that's a sort of thing which should be viable. If whatever GW is doing can help that situation, I'm all for it. I'd like to be able to fire anti-tank rockets at a big machine and have some effect.

yea, shooting and high power are sort of out of hand. if your meta is friendly and people play fluff lists that are actual fluffy like a company of mostly marines with a few dreadnaughts and bikes or tau with fire warriors, crisis suits, stealth suits and broadsides with railguns you get a fun game without just picking up infantry. personally I have no interest in facing a 3-4 imperial knight list and have no problem saying I would rather not play that person

Martel732 wrote:I don't know. Depends on how you look at it. Tactical marines are a pretty expensive tax for a unit that can do nothing in the 7th ed meta. I'd like to lose fewer points when that ion accelerator hits, myself.

yea, if your meta is hyper competitive troops of any kind have turned into a tax (beyond scat bikes with their move out of LOS in combat phase and regenerating necrons) honestly the power level of shooting needs to be put in check and infantry need a chance to survive

They're releasing plastic Heresy-era armor. I'm not butthurt about that. It also seems like it would make for easy conversions for CSM players wanting their dudes to be veterans from way back.

I'm a little tiny bit butthurt about the Custodes coming to 40k. It seems weird to have them outside of the Imperial Palace. Oh well, I'm sure they'll come up with a reason for it.

The thing that has me a little sad isn't so much that the Custodes are coming, but rather I had this tiny bit of hope that they would get released as part of a boxed set with new plastic Brides of the Emperor/Sisters of Battle as part of an Age of Apostasy boxed game. Heck, they could have thrown in some plastic Frateris Templars in there that could be used as a new IG regiment.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Marine bikes are very very old - they are in the very first Space Marine army lists back in the Book of the Astronomican including the sidecar version.

The basic marine has changed quite a bit - they were not all T4 for one thing.

The rules and balance is as everyone agrees a complete mess - Maybe 8th Ed will sort out this but I doubt it.

True, although at the very beginning, all the armies kind of had everything, in theory at least if not models for them. I think there was even IG jetbikes... That may have just been a piece of art... As time went on, they started focusing the armies a little more and giving them their character. That's when Marines got their T bump, Rhinos, new models, and the bikes were kind of these klunky, ugly old things that seemed obsolete. I was referring to later on when the plastic bike kits came out.

There's been some people making a good point here that all the basic infantry has been left behind, although I think Tau has some real strengths in that area, and if you consider Aspect Warriors basic infantry, I think they fit into the Meta just fine. As always, we have those lamenting the fate of Sisters, Orks, etc. I think at this point the fact that they need an update goes without saying.

Marine Player are an IMMENSE proportion of their market share, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect GW to work on other niche armies at the cost of taking their poker out of that fire. GW has demonstrated as of late that they're more than capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. Those other Factions desperately need love, but I don't think GW needs to backburner their flagship army to do that, and I don't think that has any bearing on this topic, personally.

The idea has been floated that some sort of "General's handbook" will come out along with 8th that will rebalance all the factions in one go, and that that is where the Dataslates will live and see updating, and Faction specific releases that are released going forward will be more akin to Angels of Death and Chaos Legions which will focus on Formations, etc. That gives me hope. I also LOVE the idea that I will be able easily see where enemy Codexes are at and what the armies are capable of without dropping $60 each for every codex out there.

 Weboflies wrote:
Marine Player are an IMMENSE proportion of their market share, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect GW to work on other niche armies at the cost of taking their poker out of that fire. GW has demonstrated as of late that they're more than capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. Those other Factions desperately need love, but I don't think GW needs to backburner their flagship army to do that, and I don't think that has any bearing on this topic, personally.

This is true, and I don't have a problem with GW wanting to spend more time on what makes them the most money.

At a certain point though, when the large majority of releases are for one faction and many other factions have seen limited or no new releases for many years I think you'll be pushing people towards the faction that is getting all the love. Then GW puts even more time into rules and models for that faction, and new players are even more likely to start collecting it and old players are even more likely to ditch their favored faction because all that's available is 15 year old metal models.

You can see how there might be a feedback loop, right?

 Weboflies wrote:
The idea has been floated that some sort of "General's handbook" will come out along with 8th that will rebalance all the factions in one go, and that that is where the Dataslates will live and see updating, and Faction specific releases that are released going forward will be more akin to Angels of Death and Chaos Legions which will focus on Formations, etc. That gives me hope. I also LOVE the idea that I will be able easily see where enemy Codexes are at and what the armies are capable of without dropping $60 each for every codex out there.

I would also welcome the AoS model when it comes to books.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
New Space Marines will also be gender inclusive, so GW can finally get rid of the Sisters all together.

Why not also species inclusive so that we can finally get rid of codexes altogether and just finally run spess mehreens vs spess mehreens. Ah, wait, it's 30k.

 Melissia wrote:
That's what the Imperial Guard is for.

I have a feeling that the regular Astartes will become the new Guard. And that Rawbutt's Chosen will become the new elites (i.e. Mary Sues that put the Grey Knights to shame).

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That's what the Imperial Guard is for.

I have a feeling that the regular Astartes will become the new Guard. And that Rawbutt's Chosen will become the new elites (i.e. Mary Sues that put the Grey Knights to shame).

So they use GK blood to make themselves purer?

In response to the OPs question - absolutely not!

The very existence of libby conclave and Brother Cpt Smashfether alone are reason enough that SM do not need uber-marines.

Ruin wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That's what the Imperial Guard is for.

I have a feeling that the regular Astartes will become the new Guard. And that Rawbutt's Chosen will become the new elites (i.e. Mary Sues that put the Grey Knights to shame).

So they use GK blood to make themselves purer?

I would laugh my ass off if they did.

Can't have that aren't the Ultra Smurfs worried red drink might make them more interesting?

AAAaaaaannnddd CSm kits (excepte for 1Ksons kits) are still mostly incomplet or 15+years old...

But hey sure, give Marines ANOTHER fething new models range and faction to ally with, i mean its not like they allready have a dozen of those right?...

New Space Marines are not going to look good.

I am sure the models individually will look fine, but... standard troop the size of an Ork Nob? Not sure I would like that.

Would prefer someone makes the IG smaller to achieve a balance of scale. Everything else is sized correctly.

I think 40k should get rid of generic space marines. BA, SW, DA, GK are certainly enough. There are also AM and sisters, too many human armies.

 Blackie wrote:
too many human armies.

And admech, other admech that are a separate army for some reason, knights, inquisition...

 Blackie wrote:
I think 40k should get rid of generic space marines. BA, SW, DA, GK are certainly enough. There are also AM and sisters, too many human armies.

Sounds good.
I could always use 30k models to spread the Wolfity Wolf a bit thinner.

Yeah I forgot about skitarii/ad mech.... seems like humans should fight among themselves forever, but the 40k background says a different story.

I currently avoid playing an imperium army against another imperium army, it doesn't make sense to me.

I am certain the new marines mentioned are just a wider exploration in Custodes; which are getting a codex on the 25th btw ! Although i wish marines had been made slightly larger, this would indeed invalidate all current models, which i think are perfectly adequate.

I bet GW has realized that the baseline marine performs NOTHING like the fluff (such that it is) indicates. Since T5 is the magical toughness for infantry now, not T4, this is going to be their "fix". Tactical marines become an ever bigger liability.

The new marines will be designed to cope with the reality of the windrider, necron warrior, and firewarrior. Everyone can go get fethed.

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah I forgot about skitarii/ad mech.... seems like humans should fight among themselves forever, but the 40k background says a different story.

I currently avoid playing an imperium army against another imperium army, it doesn't make sense to me.

Plenty of Imperial armies don't like the Space Wolves.

What we need to do is figure out a way to turn all the other factions into Space Marines.

We already have that, its called 30K

 master of ordinance wrote:
We already have that, its called 30K

Someone is not a fan of Solar Auxilia?

You should take a look at them. I think they are way cooler than IG.

Almost no one plays 30k with other factions than marines. I wish there was greater 30k army diversification and a Xenos army for it that is not Eldar/Orks. I might just consider it. Even then marine players would bitch we are infecting their game and other crap.

I mean look at 40k now. Almost nothing but Space Marines... it's so close to being just an inferior clone to 30k for marine vs marine play. I don't doubt it'a s very real possibility all the Xenos might stop getting support for 8th 40k. The only xenos army released in recent history was the subfaciton GSC for nids and it was a pretty small release compared to what is coming in AoS.

I'm starting to feel like I need to just move to AoS. Such a more forward facing game and community and more inclusive of other gamers tastes than 40k's.... festering space marine cults. For god sake we have a Primarch ruling the Imperium now instead of the Emperor for all intents and purposes. This is space marine fan spank taken to such huge extremes. The only thing left to do at this point is just axe humans and anything else in existence except marine vs chaos marines.

I play against a LOT of Xenos in 40K. Can't speak to 30K. I thought it was all about the heresy, so duh.

Hear me out on this.

What about a space marine........

Inside of a space marine..........

Inside a third space marine?

I mean, the second step already worked out quite well for GW.