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Commorragh is planet-sized. And overpopulated.

Melissia wrote:

By the most literal reading of the various Sisters books, there are at most a few hundred thousand Sisters of Battle, and that's being generous.

Don't worry though, GW's doing everything they can to bring that number down to zero!

Weboflies wrote:I wish I had more time just now to respond to a lot of this, and I will when I have a moment, but for now, just let me say this.

It's truly painful watching you guys twist your half baked logic in order to try to continue to argue realities that are right in front of your face and should be obvious to any reasonable person.

No one said that a faction being more numerous should make them more powerful, that's just silly, but a culture that exists only in one city in the webway, and hides from the rest of the Galaxy, keeping to them selves and concerning themselves only with their own petty interests, should not be as powerful as the most elite troops of a race that holds a Galaxy spanning empire. Sisters are the elite of the Eclisiarchy, which is only a faction within the Imperium, and one that is flaunting Imperial Law by having armed forces at all.

Get over yourselves for one second here and look at the big picture here, please.

Okay, but back to my point. Space marines are mostly insignificant in the grand scale of the setting. In fact, most of their battles tend to involve their own petty interests. The imperial guard do almost all of the legwork, and are by far the most important force in the entire setting. And yet not only do they have one of the weakest armies in the entire game, they have a model range that's almost as neglected as the Sisters.

 Fafnir wrote:

Melissia wrote:

By the most literal reading of the various Sisters books, there are at most a few hundred thousand Sisters of Battle, and that's being generous.

Don't worry though, GW's doing everything they can to bring that number down to zero!

They're just not special enough. They're making Sisters of Silence models instead because they're all fancy and magic and special and loaded down with Dark Age tech.

Let's just not talk about the Sisters of Silence. I've been waiting for SoBs for 10 years, and the SoS coming out now is just a kick in the gut.

 Fafnir wrote:

Weboflies wrote:I wish I had more time just now to respond to a lot of this, and I will when I have a moment, but for now, just let me say this.

It's truly painful watching you guys twist your half baked logic in order to try to continue to argue realities that are right in front of your face and should be obvious to any reasonable person.

No one said that a faction being more numerous should make them more powerful, that's just silly, but a culture that exists only in one city in the webway, and hides from the rest of the Galaxy, keeping to them selves and concerning themselves only with their own petty interests, should not be as powerful as the most elite troops of a race that holds a Galaxy spanning empire. Sisters are the elite of the Eclisiarchy, which is only a faction within the Imperium, and one that is flaunting Imperial Law by having armed forces at all.

Get over yourselves for one second here and look at the big picture here, please.

Okay, but back to my point. Space marines are mostly insignificant in the grand scale of the setting. In fact, most of their battles tend to involve their own petty interests. The imperial guard do almost all of the legwork, and are by far the most important force in the entire setting. And yet not only do they have one of the weakest armies in the entire game, they have a model range that's almost as neglected as the Sisters.

It's the scale and the points scheme that cause the fluff/rules discrepancy here. The Guard are the most important force in the setting, but if we were being true to fluff they wouldn't be fielding a 1,500pt army against someone else's 1,500pt army. There would be 1,500pts of Space Marines in a combat zone with thirty thousand points (possibly more) of Guardsmen and what's going on in a given 40k-game-sized sector would be down to information and strategic maneuvering, rather than two players lining up conveniently points-equal forces in balanced scenarios to beat on each other. Some sacrifices need to be made to make the game function.

And as for the strategic relevance of the Space Marines they're supposed to be shock troops deployed first through the breach to make the Guard's job easier, not a standalone army. The Guard does the work, yes, but at the company scale the army that puts the boots on the ground, does the mopup, and does all the proper work without which the Imperium would have disintegrated many, many thousands of years ago is simply less sexy/exciting/interesting to players than the folks in the shiny armour who do the kicking in of doors.

(In my experience having this argument with many people over the years I've come to conclude that the degree to which Space Marines annoy you may be correlated with how much you know about how war actually works. People who understand and respect the importance of the gruntwork tend to get annoyed at the Guard getting no respect in favour of shiny movie-commandos carefully calibrated to appeal to the inner twelve-year-old.)

 SolarCross wrote:


It is sort of a which comes first the chicken or the egg type situation:

Does GW spam marines because Timmy loves spam marines the best?
OR
Does Timmy love spam marines the best because GW spams marines?

Honestly, in most cases, what do you think attracted Timmy to 40k in the first place?. You don't think Timmy has internet access? You don't think he knows he doesn't have to buy the starter set? You think he's not aware of the other factions? People either like one of the factions enough to buy in to the hobby, or they don't. Do you honestly think People buy into the hobby just because a faction is there? If Marines don't appeal to them they'll go with another faction, or just buy the new Grand Theft Auto game. You guys talk as if anyone does this for any reason other than that they found something there that sparked their imagination, and made it worth it to them to pass all the HUGE barriers to entry, and YES even for Marines, there is a huge barrier to entry, namely vast amounts of time and money. It's not like we're talking about grocery shopping here people, get real.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Only Xenos armies that actually recieved buffs, plentiful new units and model updates where the Tau and Eldar, and both of these sell really well. Quite coincidentally they are the two Xenos races, and indeed the two factions that sell as well as Marines.

Tau can mop the floor with Marines and they don't sell nearly as well. Eldar are more powerful than Marines, get tons of suppoort and although they come in second, don't sell as well either.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wait a second. People DO play marines even though we dont like them because for many of the more neglected Imperial armies a Deathwatch detachment is the key to some much needed firepower and utility.

Really, those players don't like Marines at all? Are you sure? If so, exactly how many people are we talking about here? Also, we are talking about a unit or two, not a whole army.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Furthermore many new players do not have a chance as the first army they are inevitably met with is Marines. They see them as they enter the shop, they see them on the posters and hangings, they see them on the shelves and when they purchase their first starter set they inevitably get generic Xenos/Traitor army X and the super special cool marines to beat them with. almost every time the Marine army included is superior to its opponents (just look at the Dark Vengance set where the Marines where the only ones equipped with anti heavy infantry and anti armour weapons) and in recent years even the bad guys have been Marines as well (just spikier).
Given all that how can you NOT admit that there may just be a major marketing reason why Marines are so popular.

Do you really think anyone coming into this hobby is even thinking about winning games when they make the plunge? There's way easier and cheaper paths to pwning people at games. If that's what people care about, they'll just play video games.

People fall in love with the models and fluff.

THERE'S NO OTHER REASON TO DO THIS.

Do you really think how well supported a line is, or it's power level plays any kind of role in that? Why do you love your army? Why do you stick with it even though it's not supported? Why would SM players be any different? Are we all idiots with an overabundance of time and money doing this on a whim? If we are, why are we playing 40k at all?

 master of ordinance wrote:
They are on the posters, the adverts, i the strting sets, have the most releases, are mentioned all the time, are shoehorned into every last bit of fluff and boxed game, even the ones they really do not belong in (Fall of Cadia, the new Armageddon game)

How on earth do the elite of the elite, the tip of the spear of Imperial Forces not belong in the two hottest warzones in the Galaxy? Seriously...

 master of ordinance wrote:
GW where shocked at how much their Sisters of battle sales skyrocketed over night with just a tiny mention and a new figure, but unfortunately they where too thick to put 2 + 2 together and instead dropped back to making yet more Marine fanwank.

Celestine came out mere weeks ago. Do you think putting even one new kit together and getting it to market is something that happens overnight? What world do you live in? If they were testing the waters with Celestine and the rereleases, they haven't had time to take things to the next step if that's in the works.

 Mr Morden wrote:

As I specifically said Celestine does not have Acts of Faith and so her fellow Sisters can't use them if she is in their unit.

Why do you need to put Celestine in a unit? All reports are that she's virtually unkillable and completely awesome for the points, whether she's in a unit or not. But wait, you found one thing that's not perfect, so I guess She sucks.

 master of ordinance wrote:
If GW actually updated the figures for Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle as well as giving these armies some decent rules and support there is no reason as to why they should not sell at least as well as Marines. Hell, IG and SoB would easily out sell Marines as players whom had all but given up hope, or who where put off by the hilarious prices and ancient models, suddenly found themselves presented with new, decent, models at reasonable prices. marines sales would be tiny in comparison, but once again GW is too thick to see this.

You are living in a fantasy. Nothing has ever sold as well as Marines, and none of the other existing lines ever will. You might get a blip here or there if something has been hung out to dry for ages, and gets a big push, but nothing else in the game will ever match the consistent popularity of Marines, regardless of support levels. What exactly does it matter how old a model is? Many of the Aspect warriors are from the 90's and they are some of the most beautiful models in the game. I play with RTB01 models from the 1980's and pay through the nose to get more on ebay, and then buy the new kits so I have weapon options for them. I do that because that's what I like. I don't complain about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Wait are people saying "there's not many marines in-universe therefor they should be the most powerful in-game", unironically?

[Facepalm] Lterally no-one one said that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:
[
This coming from the guy telling us that Marines are the best because mien ubersmench automatically have to be better than everything. Pot meet kettle much?

Where did I say that? Quote me please.



Alright... Guys, I can tell you're all passionate about your armies, and I think that's part of the problem here. You're not seeing things in perspective. Let's shift this back to real world stuff here.

GW is a publicly traded corporation.

Do you understand what that means?

It means they are accountable to their shareholders to maximize profits.

It means they have bean counters looking at what costs are on every release and set of releases, and looking at profits for the associated sales.

The bean counters don't care about space marines, or space elves, or space nuns, or space anything.

They care about profits.

It doesn't cost them any more or less to redesign Marines than it does to redesign anything else. They've obviously looked at their own numbers, and those numbers, (ie: gamers and 40k fans voting with their dollars), and have found Marines to be the most profitable (ie: generate the most sales). This means they will keep doing Marines releases in preference to other things.

It's useless to speculate about whether or not another faction would take up the mantle if they focused the lions share of their resources on them, because that's something that is simply never going to happen. If it was going to, It would have already at some point in the ups and downs of 40k's 30 year history. Even if they could be be just as successful with DE as SM, why would they do it? The've got more work to do to get an army like that up to top tier level, than they do with Marines. Why would they take the risk, and increase their costs, and nerf a proven sales winner just to end up at square one with sales if they're extremely lucky? Maybe your of the belief for some reason that your army could sell better. GW has obviously never had any reason to believe that, and guess what? They have all the numbers in front of them, and you don't, and they're not dumb. They're running a successful corporation, and you're just some person that complains on the internet about it.

At some point, if they continue with this level of Marines releases, they will inevitably reach "peak Marines". When we get there, they will start to see diminishing returns on their Marines releases, and they will start looking elsewhere for opportunities. Then, and maybe only then, increasing numbers of other factions will start getting more support.

SO

As players of these other factions, you should WELCOME all these Marines releases, because you may not get the support you want for your army until guys like me, who buy Marines, are out of money or sick of Marines.

Did I just blow your minds?

All that said, Marine players do need more interesting and fun stuff to kill (or be killed by), and a new Edition is nigh, so why don't you guys let your blood pressure ease down a notch and just see what happens.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
And as for the strategic relevance of the Space Marines they're supposed to be shock troops

Eeeeh. Not really. Shock troops don't have to be as mobile as GW makes Space Marines out to be. They're really more special forces to the extreme.

 Weboflies wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
They are on the posters, the adverts, i the strting sets, have the most releases, are mentioned all the time, are shoehorned into every last bit of fluff and boxed game, even the ones they really do not belong in (Fall of Cadia, the new Armageddon game)

How on earth do the elite of the elite, the tip of the spear of Imperial Forces not belong in the two hottest warzones in the Galaxy? Seriously...

Not really, no. Armageddon and Cadia are both long term, dug in situations where much of the fighting is basically a meatgrinder. For as much as Dorn likes to pretend, Space Marines are worthless at maintaining such sieges because they just don't have the numbers. You send space marines in to quickly clean up insurrections before they happen or cut off the commanding head of an isolated force, not to man the trenches. Unfortunately for them, both of those theatres are basically all trench.

 master of ordinance wrote:
GW where shocked at how much their Sisters of battle sales skyrocketed over night with just a tiny mention and a new figure, but unfortunately they where too thick to put 2 + 2 together and instead dropped back to making yet more Marine fanwank.

Celestine came out mere weeks ago. Do you think putting even one new kit together and getting it to market is something that happens overnight? What world do you live in? If they were testing the waters with Celestine and the rereleases, they haven't had time to take things to the next step if that's in the works.

He's talking about Canoness Veridyan. Who GW aren't even producing anymore, despite her startlingly good sales.

 Mr Morden wrote:

As I specifically said Celestine does not have Acts of Faith and so her fellow Sisters can't use them if she is in their unit.

Why do you need to put Celestine in a unit? All reports are that she's virtually unkillable and completely awesome for the points, whether she's in a unit or not. But wait, you found one thing that's not perfect, so I guess She sucks.

Traditionally, she had been used to lead a unit of Seraphim. Additionally, it is a bit of a kick in a teeth to have your own army's iconic hero not able to actually play well with the units of her own army.

 master of ordinance wrote:
If GW actually updated the figures for Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle as well as giving these armies some decent rules and support there is no reason as to why they should not sell at least as well as Marines. Hell, IG and SoB would easily out sell Marines as players whom had all but given up hope, or who where put off by the hilarious prices and ancient models, suddenly found themselves presented with new, decent, models at reasonable prices. marines sales would be tiny in comparison, but once again GW is too thick to see this.

You are living in a fantasy. Nothing has ever sold as well as Marines, and none of the other existing lines ever will. You might get a blip here or there if something has been hung out to dry for ages, and gets a big push, but nothing else in the game will ever match the consistent popularity of Marines, regardless of support levels. What exactly does it matter how old a model is? Many of the Aspect warriors are from the 90's and they are some of the most beautiful models in the game. I play with RTB01 models from the 1980's and pay through the nose to get more on ebay, and then buy the new kits so I have weapon options for them. I do that because that's what I like. I don't complain about it.

It's definitely true that marines will generally continue to lead the charge no matter how well maintained the other ranges get, I would expect that the gap would get quite a bit smaller.
As for the age of models, sadly, the age does show in a lot of them. Cadians and Catachans look absolutely horrendous, and as good as the Sisters looked in their time, their age puts them at odds with everything else more and more with each year, and the comparison is definitely not in their favour. It also doesn't help that they're still in freaking metal and cost $120 a unit.

 master of ordinance wrote:
[
This coming from the guy telling us that Marines are the best because mien ubersmench automatically have to be better than everything. Pot meet kettle much?

Where did I say that? Quote me please.

No one said that a faction being more numerous should make them more powerful, that's just silly, but a culture that exists only in one city in the webway, and hides from the rest of the Galaxy, keeping to them selves and concerning themselves only with their own petty interests, should not be as powerful as the most elite troops of a race that holds a Galaxy spanning empire.

It doesn't cost them any more or less to redesign Marines than it does to redesign anything else. They've obviously looked at their own numbers, and those numbers, (ie: gamers and 40k fans voting with their dollars), and have found Marines to be the most profitable (ie: generate the most sales). This means they will keep doing Marines releases in preference to other things.

It actually does cost less, especially in an age of CAD. Since a Marines use a lot of the same or similar parts across armies, they can just copy/past most of the elements into each kit with minor alterations and flourishes.

I'd argue that the most distinctively 40k faction in Warhammer 40k is the Orks.

The majority of post-star wars space opera settings have transhuman supersoldiers in power armor, many also have transhuman supersoldiers with a knight flavoring or religious undertones too.

Nearly every one of them has some kind of space army.

The bulk of them have some ancient precursor species that is either faded and slowly dying (space elves) or are dormant and are waiting to return to the present like the necrons. Plenty also have some variety of space demons from space hell, like one of the most famous video game franchises ever (DOOM in this case).

Plenty have some coalition of aliens like the Tau with plasma everywhere, and plenty have a swarm of bugs coming to eat everything.

The Orks though? The Orks are far more unique compared to other space opera settings. The closest that comes to mind are Mass Effect's Krogan, but even then they don't quite fit the mold the Orks do of a wild and loud band of English football fans given a green coat of paint and stripped of being able to be anything but English football fans at game night. Like, with a Space marine you might be able to confuse an Astartes for one of a billion other big men in big power armor that exists in Space Fantasy and Science Fiction, but an Ork is basically 100% 40k.

I would also throw the Inquisition and Admech in there as well, at least as a close second. Especially the Blanchier stuff. Just a hell of a lot of excess and crazy that other settings never quite manage to properly touch on.

Of course, the current lacking of self awareness present in writing staff and the setting leaves little hope for that sense of identity for any of those three factions walking along a thin thread, as everything is set to become less silly and more "awesome" with each rewrite. Even the Orks have managed to lose a lot of their silliness and personality from the old days.

Weboflies wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Only Xenos armies that actually recieved buffs, plentiful new units and model updates where the Tau and Eldar, and both of these sell really well. Quite coincidentally they are the two Xenos races, and indeed the two factions that sell as well as Marines.

Tau can mop the floor with Marines and they don't sell nearly as well. Eldar are more powerful than Marines, get tons of suppoort and although they come in second, don't sell as well either.

WHAT!?!?!? A well played, Tau army MAYBE, But you don't even have to be COMPETENT to beat Tau with Marines. A good Grey Knights player will slaughter an expert Tau player and then and maybe loss a squad. Wolves, all flavors of angels, White Scars, Ultra Smurfs, will all paste Tau. It'd really take Timmy and the starter box level of a Space Marine player to get mopped up by Tau. Want to make a Tau player cry? Drop Pods....Drop Pods everywhere....melta to the death the giant robos and step into CC with them and you're day is DONE. The Loyalist Marines are across the board better then every faction in the game rules wise. And a lot of that has to do with not only having the most releases, but they literally have more variants of vehicles, and unit types then anyone else. So you literally can not make a BAD pick with Space Marines....oh yeah....and GRAV WEAPONS *Mic drop*

Kain wrote:I'd argue that the most distinctively 40k faction in Warhammer 40k is the Orks.

The majority of post-star wars space opera settings have transhuman supersoldiers in power armor, many also have transhuman supersoldiers with a knight flavoring or religious undertones too.

Nearly every one of them has some kind of space army.

The bulk of them have some ancient precursor species that is either faded and slowly dying (space elves) or are dormant and are waiting to return to the present like the necrons. Plenty also have some variety of space demons from space hell, like one of the most famous video game franchises ever (DOOM in this case).

Plenty have some coalition of aliens like the Tau with plasma everywhere, and plenty have a swarm of bugs coming to eat everything.

The Orks though? The Orks are far more unique compared to other space opera settings. The closest that comes to mind are Mass Effect's Krogan, but even then they don't quite fit the mold the Orks do of a wild and loud band of English football fans given a green coat of paint and stripped of being able to be anything but English football fans at game night. Like, with a Space marine you might be able to confuse an Astartes for one of a billion other big men in big power armor that exists in Space Fantasy and Science Fiction, but an Ork is basically 100% 40k.

Well until World of Warcraft came along and stole the entire DESIGN of Warhammer, and then StarCraft copy pasted 40k.

Blizzard Orcs only really share being big and green with GW Orks. And even then Blizzard's sense of aesthetics from WC3 until Overwatch was like, incredibly and utterly terrible with everyone wearing inflatable balloon armor, every woman being a tiny little stick of nothing (with Nova wearing a catsuit that out Zero Suit's the Zero suit :U), and every man being built like a dump truck with no exceptions. You really wouldn't be able to confuse Ghazghkull or Gorgutz with a World of Warcraft Orc.

 Weboflies wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:


It is sort of a which comes first the chicken or the egg type situation:

Does GW spam marines because Timmy loves spam marines the best?
OR
Does Timmy love spam marines the best because GW spams marines?

Honestly, in most cases, what do you think attracted Timmy to 40k in the first place?. You don't think Timmy has internet access? You don't think he knows he doesn't have to buy the starter set? You think he's not aware of the other factions? People either like one of the factions enough to buy in to the hobby, or they don't. Do you honestly think People buy into the hobby just because a faction is there? If Marines don't appeal to them they'll go with another faction, or just buy the new Grand Theft Auto game. You guys talk as if anyone does this for any reason other than that they found something there that sparked their imagination, and made it worth it to them to pass all the HUGE barriers to entry, and YES even for Marines, there is a huge barrier to entry, namely vast amounts of time and money. It's not like we're talking about grocery shopping here people, get real.

I agree, I'm in since late 90s and never been attracted by SM.... until space wolves got they're wolfy models and new units, and then love at first sight But I still don't like a lot of SM stuff, especially their vehicles.

 Melissia wrote:
Commorragh is planet-sized. And overpopulated.

I tend to hear "solar system sized" more than planet sized; but then space is a very weird thing within the webway. But in any case the only Eldar who outnumber the Commorites are the Exodites and Commorragh is not the only dark city that the Dark Eldar live in within the webway. And if that weren't enough the Dark Eldar also have vat grown babies to provide for added cannon fodder for their armies. The Dark Eldar number in the trillions; possibly quadrillions and are actually growing in number. As part of the setting's grim darkness, the faction perhaps most similar to humans in mental outlook out of the xenos; the Craftworlders, are a fading breed. But the faction of xenos who are universally composed out of sociopaths who are so bereft of compassion that even ancient archons need the concept of love explained to them are a growing people filled with vitality.

Craftworld Eldar fall in love, they have heartbreaks, they have children whom they love and cherish deeply, they have families and very human worries. Meanwhile a commorite is a cackling psychopath who can't even put a name to altruistic feelings that they're expected to shun as weakness and even though they need to torture other people to survive; they'd probably still torture you anyway even if Slaanesh wasn't looming over their shoulders. Thing of what kind of crapsack universe has the latter be the ones who are succeeding and thriving.

Why do you need to put Celestine in a unit? All reports are that she's virtually unkillable and completely awesome for the points, whether she's in a unit or not. But wait, you found one thing that's not perfect, so I guess She sucks.

Oh dear - your really have no idea who the game works do you :facepalm - Do you even play it?

 Melissia wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
And as for the strategic relevance of the Space Marines they're supposed to be shock troops

Eeeeh. Not really. Shock troops don't have to be as mobile as GW makes Space Marines out to be. They're really more special forces to the extreme.

From Wikipedia: Shock troops or assault troops are formations created to lead an attack.

"Shock troop" is a calque, a loose translation[1] of the German word Stoßtrupp. Military units which contain assault troops are typically organized for mobility with the intention that they will penetrate through enemy defences and attack into the enemy's vulnerable rear areas.

Space Marines are exactly shock troops.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

Weboflies wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Only Xenos armies that actually recieved buffs, plentiful new units and model updates where the Tau and Eldar, and both of these sell really well. Quite coincidentally they are the two Xenos races, and indeed the two factions that sell as well as Marines.

Tau can mop the floor with Marines and they don't sell nearly as well. Eldar are more powerful than Marines, get tons of suppoort and although they come in second, don't sell as well either.

WHAT!?!?!? A well played, Tau army MAYBE, But you don't even have to be COMPETENT to beat Tau with Marines. A good Grey Knights player will slaughter an expert Tau player and then and maybe loss a squad. Wolves, all flavors of angels, White Scars, Ultra Smurfs, will all paste Tau. It'd really take Timmy and the starter box level of a Space Marine player to get mopped up by Tau. Want to make a Tau player cry? Drop Pods....Drop Pods everywhere....melta to the death the giant robos and step into CC with them and you're day is DONE. The Loyalist Marines are across the board better then every faction in the game rules wise. And a lot of that has to do with not only having the most releases, but they literally have more variants of vehicles, and unit types then anyone else. So you literally can not make a BAD pick with Space Marines....oh yeah....and GRAV WEAPONS *Mic drop*

Kain wrote:I'd argue that the most distinctively 40k faction in Warhammer 40k is the Orks.

The majority of post-star wars space opera settings have transhuman supersoldiers in power armor, many also have transhuman supersoldiers with a knight flavoring or religious undertones too.

Nearly every one of them has some kind of space army.

The bulk of them have some ancient precursor species that is either faded and slowly dying (space elves) or are dormant and are waiting to return to the present like the necrons. Plenty also have some variety of space demons from space hell, like one of the most famous video game franchises ever (DOOM in this case).

Plenty have some coalition of aliens like the Tau with plasma everywhere, and plenty have a swarm of bugs coming to eat everything.

The Orks though? The Orks are far more unique compared to other space opera settings. The closest that comes to mind are Mass Effect's Krogan, but even then they don't quite fit the mold the Orks do of a wild and loud band of English football fans given a green coat of paint and stripped of being able to be anything but English football fans at game night. Like, with a Space marine you might be able to confuse an Astartes for one of a billion other big men in big power armor that exists in Space Fantasy and Science Fiction, but an Ork is basically 100% 40k.

Well until World of Warcraft came along and stole the entire DESIGN of Warhammer, and then StarCraft copy pasted 40k.

It i

Tau massacre GK like children. You clearly don't understand how good Tau are currently. It is also very difficult to beat Tau with marines unless you are using a VERY specific gimmick from a VERY short list. If this weren't true, BA wouldn't be getting wrecked every match vs them.

Gk are among the worst armies IMHO, tau are clearly better. I think there is more than a single way for SM to deal with tau, as they have a lot of awful gimmicks, not just one. Specific chapters like DA or SW that rely on their typical stuff can deal with the fishes with good results too.

 Weboflies wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Only Xenos armies that actually recieved buffs, plentiful new units and model updates where the Tau and Eldar, and both of these sell really well. Quite coincidentally they are the two Xenos races, and indeed the two factions that sell as well as Marines.

Tau can mop the floor with Marines and they don't sell nearly as well. Eldar are more powerful than Marines, get tons of suppoort and although they come in second, don't sell as well either.

Tau only mop the floor with armies that stand off and try to out shoot them, or try to slog it across the board towards them. Marines can drop pod spam, they can use that Skyhammer formation, they can bring free transports.... All in all Marines and Tau are an even match, erring on the side of the Marines. Eldar have only once not been the best, and that was when they didnt get as much love as they do now.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wait a second. People DO play marines even though we dont like them because for many of the more neglected Imperial armies a Deathwatch detachment is the key to some much needed firepower and utility.

Really, those players don't like Marines at all? Are you sure? If so, exactly how many people are we talking about here? Also, we are talking about a unit or two, not a whole army.

It starts as a unit or two. And then you realise that Marine unit X does its thing better than Guard unit Y. Then you also notice that Marine unit C is better than Guard unit A. And then you end up with your Guard being allies. And then you find yourself playing Marines.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Furthermore many new players do not have a chance as the first army they are inevitably met with is Marines. They see them as they enter the shop, they see them on the posters and hangings, they see them on the shelves and when they purchase their first starter set they inevitably get generic Xenos/Traitor army X and the super special cool marines to beat them with. almost every time the Marine army included is superior to its opponents (just look at the Dark Vengance set where the Marines where the only ones equipped with anti heavy infantry and anti armour weapons) and in recent years even the bad guys have been Marines as well (just spikier).
Given all that how can you NOT admit that there may just be a major marketing reason why Marines are so popular.

Do you really think anyone coming into this hobby is even thinking about winning games when they make the plunge? There's way easier and cheaper paths to pwning people at games. If that's what people care about, they'll just play video games.

Well, given the number TFG WAAC powergamers in 40K, and just how disproportionately higher that number than any other game....

People fall in love with the models and fluff.

That they do

THERE'S NO OTHER REASON TO DO THIS.

Apart from the bit where you get tired of being curbstomped every game and really want to win once in a blue moon.

Do you really think how well supported a line is, or it's power level plays any kind of role in that? Why do you love your army? Why do you stick with it even though it's not supported? Why would SM players be any different? Are we all idiots with an overabundance of time and money doing this on a whim? If we are, why are we playing 40k at all?

Well gee, I dunno. I mean, its not like Marines being very well supported, getting model and codex updates with every new edition, being in all the video games, being mentioned the most in the fluff, having the 2nd best codex, having the most official support, having the largest and most diverse model range, having the most up to date model range, being the product range that takes up the largest percentage of space in a GW store and being the one faction that is thrust down our throats on a daily basis has anything to do with them being popular at all, right?

 master of ordinance wrote:
They are on the posters, the adverts, i the strting sets, have the most releases, are mentioned all the time, are shoehorned into every last bit of fluff and boxed game, even the ones they really do not belong in (Fall of Cadia, the new Armageddon game)

How on earth do the elite of the elite, the tip of the spear of Imperial Forces not belong in the two hottest warzones in the Galaxy? Seriously...

Good question. How did several armies of Mary Sues make it through the warpstorms in such number that they are talked about a lot more than the actual Cadians themselves in the book. Likewise how come elite Stoss Truppen are suddenly the best thing to have in a siege situation? How come the Marines are mentioned and their actions explored so much more than the Cadians whom where defending their very own planet and making their last stand on it?

 master of ordinance wrote:
GW where shocked at how much their Sisters of battle sales skyrocketed over night with just a tiny mention and a new figure, but unfortunately they where too thick to put 2 + 2 together and instead dropped back to making yet more Marine fanwank.

Celestine came out mere weeks ago. Do you think putting even one new kit together and getting it to market is something that happens overnight? What world do you live in? If they were testing the waters with Celestine and the rereleases, they haven't had time to take things to the next step if that's in the works.

Celestine is an Imperial model. Cannoness Valerie is the model I am on about and in case you didnt notice she sold out in under 24 hours of her initial release, faster than any other 40k limited edition model has ever done so. If there is no real call for Sisters to get new models and no one would buy them then how come the single new model that they have had in nearly two decades outsold everything else for the brief period it was available. And she was failcast, not even metal or plastic. Hell, at my FLGS she was sold out two weeks before release.

 Mr Morden wrote:

As I specifically said Celestine does not have Acts of Faith and so her fellow Sisters can't use them if she is in their unit.

Why do you need to put Celestine in a unit? All reports are that she's virtually unkillable and completely awesome for the points, whether she's in a unit or not. But wait, you found one thing that's not perfect, so I guess She sucks.

Your ignorance is astonishing. You put characters in a unit for a very good reason, and if you think otherwise thenp please tell my why all the Marine players are so het up about not being able to put Girlyman in a unit, despite him being tankier than Celestine?

 master of ordinance wrote:
If GW actually updated the figures for Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle as well as giving these armies some decent rules and support there is no reason as to why they should not sell at least as well as Marines. Hell, IG and SoB would easily out sell Marines as players whom had all but given up hope, or who where put off by the hilarious prices and ancient models, suddenly found themselves presented with new, decent, models at reasonable prices. marines sales would be tiny in comparison, but once again GW is too thick to see this.

You are living in a fantasy. Nothing has ever sold as well as Marines, and none of the other existing lines ever will. You might get a blip here or there if something has been hung out to dry for ages, and gets a big push, but nothing else in the game will ever match the consistent popularity of Marines, regardless of support levels. What exactly does it matter how old a model is? Many of the Aspect warriors are from the 90's and they are some of the most beautiful models in the game. I play with RTB01 models from the 1980's and pay through the nose to get more on ebay, and then buy the new kits so I have weapon options for them. I do that because that's what I like. I don't complain about it.

And coincidentally nothing has ever been supported as well as Marines. Until that is, Tau and Eldar got some love and suddenly they sell nearly as well as marines do.

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 Melissia wrote:
Wait are people saying "there's not many marines in-universe therefor they should be the most powerful in-game", unironically?

[Facepalm] Lterally no-one one said that.

Actually you did

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 master of ordinance wrote:
[
This coming from the guy telling us that Marines are the best because mien ubersmench automatically have to be better than everything. Pot meet kettle much?

Where did I say that? Quote me please.

Someone already did that for me

Alright... Guys, I can tell you're all passionate about your armies, and I think that's part of the problem here. You're not seeing things in perspective. Let's shift this back to real world stuff here.

Yes we are. Or at least we would like to see something come our way for once.

GW is a publicly traded corporation.

Do you understand what that means?

It means they are accountable to their shareholders to maximize profits.

Yes yes and yes

It means they have bean counters looking at what costs are on every release and set of releases, and looking at profits for the associated sales.

And I guess the massive profits reaped from a certain aforementioned cannoness just slid under the radar?

The bean counters don't care about space marines, or space elves, or space nuns, or space anything.

They will in a couple of years when the haemorrhage of non-Marine players suddenly catches them in the face.

They care about profits.

Which are dropping

It doesn't cost them any more or less to redesign Marines than it does to redesign anything else. They've obviously looked at their own numbers, and those numbers, (ie: gamers and 40k fans voting with their dollars), and have found Marines to be the most profitable (ie: generate the most sales). This means they will keep doing Marines releases in preference to other things.

And yet the financial results say otherwise. GW is losing none Marine players like no tomorrow and this will soon catch up with them.

It's useless to speculate about whether or not another faction would take up the mantle if they focused the lions share of their resources on them, because that's something that is simply never going to happen. If it was going to, It would have already at some point in the ups and downs of 40k's 30 year history. Even if they could be be just as successful with DE as SM, why would they do it? The've got more work to do to get an army like that up to top tier level, than they do with Marines. Why would they take the risk, and increase their costs, and nerf a proven sales winner just to end up at square one with sales if they're extremely lucky? Maybe your of the belief for some reason that your army could sell better. GW has obviously never had any reason to believe that, and guess what? They have all the numbers in front of them, and you don't, and they're not dumb. They're running a successful corporation, and you're just some person that complains on the internet about it.

Work? Dont make me laugh, I could write a decent top tier Marine or Sisters codex in two weeks, and that is just doing the odd bit here and here after work in the evenings. GW has no excuse for not bothering to update the older codex's, or give the other factions some love.

At some point, if they continue with this level of Marines releases, they will inevitably reach "peak Marines". When we get there, they will start to see diminishing returns on their Marines releases, and they will start looking elsewhere for opportunities. Then, and maybe only then, increasing numbers of other factions will start getting more support.

And by that point it will be too late because the other factions players will have long since gone.

SO

As players of these other factions, you should WELCOME all these Marines releases, because you may not get the support you want for your army until guys like me, who buy Marines, are out of money or sick of Marines.

WHAT?
We should just welcome more and more Marine releases, more and more bolter pron and more and more Marine love because it will eventually lead to this hypothetical point where GW realise just how braindead stupid they have been? I do not know how you arrived at such an outcome but from where I am standing there is no such result as that.

Did I just blow your minds?

Not in the way you wanted.

All that said, Marine players do need more interesting and fun stuff to kill (or be killed by), and a new Edition is nigh, so why don't you guys let your blood pressure ease down a notch and just see what happens.

marines already have that, it is called 'Every Other Faction'.

 Kain wrote:
I'd argue that the most distinctively 40k faction in Warhammer 40k is the Orks.

The majority of post-star wars space opera settings have transhuman supersoldiers in power armor, many also have transhuman supersoldiers with a knight flavoring or religious undertones too.

Nearly every one of them has some kind of space army.

The bulk of them have some ancient precursor species that is either faded and slowly dying (space elves) or are dormant and are waiting to return to the present like the necrons. Plenty also have some variety of space demons from space hell, like one of the most famous video game franchises ever (DOOM in this case).

Plenty have some coalition of aliens like the Tau with plasma everywhere, and plenty have a swarm of bugs coming to eat everything.

The Orks though? The Orks are far more unique compared to other space opera settings. The closest that comes to mind are Mass Effect's Krogan, but even then they don't quite fit the mold the Orks do of a wild and loud band of English football fans given a green coat of paint and stripped of being able to be anything but English football fans at game night. Like, with a Space marine you might be able to confuse an Astartes for one of a billion other big men in big power armor that exists in Space Fantasy and Science Fiction, but an Ork is basically 100% 40k.

Maybe, but how many have nuns with power armor? Or steampunk priest cyborgs?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Space Marines are exactly shock troops.

By that definition, Navy SEALs are "shock troops" for the United States Army-- which is quite ridiculous. It's a useless definition that doesn't distinguish between external special forces units and internal assault units.

 Melissia wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Space Marines are exactly shock troops.

By that definition, Navy SEALs are "shock troops" for the United States Army-- which is quite ridiculous. It's a useless definition that doesn't distinguish between external special forces units and internal assault units.

Feel free to propose a different definition if you don't like the one provided. Here's another one:

shock troops
ˈSHäk ˌtro͞ops/
noun
a group of soldiers trained specially for carrying out a sudden assault


Which sounds a lot like ye olde Drop Pod assault to me. Not that the SM can't function in a special forces capacity, but sudden assaults is arguably the primary Space Marine strategic doctrine.

 Insectum7 wrote:
a group of soldiers trained specially for carrying out a sudden assault

Are the FBI an elite Shock Troop then?

You're the one proposing overly broad definitions that include things that don't fit.

Hell, that definition you just gave just now? Includes almost the entire US Armed Force! And plenty of non-military organizations, too! Is that really the one you want to go with?

 Melissia wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
a group of soldiers trained specially for carrying out a sudden assault

Are the FBI an elite Shock Troop then?

You're the one proposing overly broad definitions that include things that don't fit.

Hell, that definition you just gave just now? Includes almost the entire US Armed Force! And plenty of non-military organizations, too! Is that really the one you want to go with?

Every classification is contextual. I suppose it could be said that SWAT are the shock troops of law enforcement. It seems perfectly accurate to say that Space Marines are the shock troops of the Imperium. (in fact I believe GW has described them as such.)

I'm not sure what your dog in this fight is anyways, and you still haven't provided a definition of your own in order to illustrate why Marines are not "shock troops".

I'm just defending my assertion that they're a special forces unit rather than "the Imperium's shock troops".

Even "special forces units" aren't quite accurate-- they are not subordinate to the Imperium's whims, after all-- but it's the closest we really have in modern warfare. They're a military organization outside of the ordinary chain of command that takes commands on high to accomplish special goals utilizing unconventional tactics, techniques, and modes of employment. In the same way you won't find the average US Army Captain commanding a unit of Navy SEALs, you won't find an Imperial platoon leader commanding Space Marines. But at the same time, you may very well find a captain commanding something we'd define as "shock troops" in either organiation.

The fact that Space Marines are highly independent and do as they please most of the time makes them para-militaries first and foremost. Organised vigilantes. They are to the Imperial Guard what the Basij are to the Revolutionary Guard in Iran.

 Melissia wrote:
I'm just defending my assertion that they're a special forces unit rather than "the Imperium's shock troops".

Even "special forces units" aren't quite accurate-- they are not subordinate to the Imperium's whims, after all-- but it's the closest we really have in modern warfare. They're a military organization outside of the ordinary chain of command that takes commands on high to accomplish special goals utilizing unconventional tactics, techniques, and modes of employment. In the same way you won't find the average US Army Captain commanding a unit of Navy SEALs, you won't find an Imperial platoon leader commanding Space Marines. But at the same time, you may very well find a captain commanding something we'd define as "shock troops" in either organiation.

The argument is Space Marines aren't shock troops because they are often under a different chain of command?

Because it is a generic term, why are they not "shock troops", especially if special forces can theoretically be put under the same umbrella.

OMG, you guys are hilarious. GW drops one of the best new units in the game on Sisters, and you find a way to complain about it. You can't use here the same way you did before... Oh no. Do you need a tissue? You guys remind me of people I used to hang out with in the nineties, who would complain that the radio didn't play any of the bands they liked, and the second those bands saw a shred of success, they'd call them sellouts and shittalk them. If your armies did get support, you'd probably hate it, and be on here complaining about how GW "ruined" them. Professional complainers. No more time for that right now sorry.

Master of Ordinance, as much fun as it's been arguing these points with you, it's frankly exhausting having to constantly illustrate how inacurate, myopic, delusional, and willfuly ignorant a lot of what you're saying (as in almost literally every word of yor last post) is. You're not interested in the reality of things, you're just looking for any random, out of context piece of information you can find to throw in my face to justify the way that you feel. That's all you're doing here is feeling with random facts, not thinking objectively. No more time for that right now either. Go ahead and have the last work if you like. I just decided that what you say isn't actually relevant to anything.

Everyone else, I hope your armies get cool new stuff, and I hope the rules balance out for you. Although there are some factions that I think should take more skill to play than others, everyone should have a shot at winning with the units they like. I actually own a Sisters army, and more new models would be great.

So, that's enough of all this for me. I'll be over here anticipating moar marines. And guess what? I'm going to get them, no matter what anybody on this forum says thinks or feels about it (including me), so that's lookin pretty good from where I'm sitting.

Bye!

 Weboflies wrote:
OMG, you guys are hilarious GW drops One of the best new units in the game on Sisters, and you find a way to complain about it.

Celestine isn't new to Sisters of Battle. Stop talking about things you have no knowledge of. If anything, the armies Celestine is "new" to aren't Sisters . They're the various flavors of Marines, plus Guard and Inquisition. All of them (save chaos marines of course, since they're not Imperial) can easily take her, and actually honestly benefit more from her than Sisters do.

That's right! Your precious Space Marines got a brand new super-powerful unit... and you're sitting around WHINING that you're upset that Sisters players aren't satisfied because ALL THEY GOT was a relaunch of third edition character they've had all along which was also given to every other Imperial army and isn't actually in the latest iteration of the Sororitas codex, basically taking it form Sisters and giving it to everyone else. That's incredibly petty and entitled of you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Because it is a generic term

I don't find overly broad terms to be at all useful. Basically, you say "Space Marines are shock troops, they're so cool!" And random idiot on the internet can just respond "Yeah, so's my dick, there's nothing special about shock troops, even cops qualify under that definition, so why should I care that Space Marines are?"