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 Fafnir wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

The Dark Eldar Codex is not top tier. There's an argument to be made that they shouldn't be. They are a relatively small enclave that fights mostly to gather slaves. They're the furthest thing from being a major force in the Galaxy. They did a pure DE boxed game for the folks who like that army. No barrier to anyone so inclined to buying that. No Marines to spoil the fun.

But the Space Marines are also a relatively exceptionally small enclave that is also extremely far from a major force in the galaxy. If we were to actually try to use that reasoning, then the Imperial Guard would be the most supported army in the game, since the vast majority of the game's conflicts are fought by them.

I'll say it yet again. These other armies and their devoted players need and deserve support for their lines 8th is around the corner, and they will get it

20 years and still waiting for some...

Technically by sheer numbers the most common conflict in the Galaxy would be Orks fighting Tyranids.

I think it would be orks fighting orks…

 Weboflies wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:


Perhaps if something other than Marines was released for once.... Perhaps if GW released new shiny for something other than Marines..... Perhaps if another race had the slightest mention.... Perhaps if Marines where not shoehorned into EVERYTHING, even the last stand of another factions iconic world..... Perhaps if the glory boys where not made out to be the bestest of the bestest..... perhaps if GW actually supported another line...... Perhaps if other lines where not forced to rely on overpriced and poorly sculpted 18+ year old models for the majority of their units (and usually their core choices)......

Yeah, once you ignore all of the above the success of Space marines is obviously due to them being really good/everyones dream.

Hogwash. Every Xenos army except Tyranids has a 7th edition codex. Dark Eldar got tons of new models. Eldar on a few occasions has gotten all kinds of new OP gak, Harlequins got a new codex and models. Tau gets more broken all the time, Genestealer Cults just dropped with a whole new line of minis and a lot of powerful abilities, Chaos just got oodles of stuff

No one's trying to say there isn't armies out there that have been left behind, but the point here is that your assertion that people don't really like marines and they spend thousands of dollars and hours on their marine armies for any other reason than that they like them is a joke. Any cases of that being true are anecdotal and not representative of the norm whatsoever. Honestly, why do you guys play whatever armies you play? You throw down the cash regardless of their power level or support level. Why would Marine players be any different?

You guys are both doing a lot of moaning about SM getting a lot of options/ support, but shouldn't the most popular army get support? Should they give MORE support than they do to Marines to Xenos armies that don't generate as much interest? GW is a business, not a Social Justice advocacy group for rebels and aliens that don't exist in real life.

Oh really? Really? Pray tell, what did Tyranids and Dark Eldar get? Tyranids got nerfed heavily, lost the flexibility that they should have and gained one crappy variation on the Biovore and a new flier. Oh, and a spore thingy. That was over two years ago. Dark Eldar got an update to their kits that meant they where no longer relying on the 1990's sculpts, but lost a good chunk of their characters and recieved a semi nerf. The only Xenos armies that actually recieved buffs, plentiful new units and model updates where the Tau and Eldar, and both of these sell really well. Quite by coincidence these are the only two Xenos races that recieved more than a courteous couple of months support before the focus turned back to MOAR MAHRINES and in fact they are the only two Xenos races that still receive support and love from GW.
Quite coincidentally they are the two Xenos races, and indeed the two factions that sell as well as Marines.

Now, we are not saying that people who dont like Marines play marines anyway, that is obviously... Wait a second. People DO play marines even though we dont like them because for many of the more neglected Imperial armies a Deathwatch detachment is the key to some much needed firepower and utility. Furthermore many new players do not have a chance as the first army they are inevitably met with is Marines. They see them as they enter the shop, they see them on the posters and hangings, they see them on the shelves and when they purchase their first starter set they inevitably get generic Xenos/Traitor army X and the super special cool marines to beat them with. almost every time the Marine army included is superior to its opponents (just look at the Dark Vengance set where the Marines where the only ones equipped with anti heavy infantry and anti armour weapons) and in recent years even the bad guys have been Marines as well (just spikier).
Given all that how can you NOT admit that there may just be a major marketing reason why Marines are so popular.
And as for throwing money at my factions stuff, I dont any more. I proxy what I can and sit tight awaiting the next codex. There is no point in purchasing any more for me as I do not know if I will be continuing with 40K. Put quite simply, my continued playing and purchasing hinges heavily on 8th editions rules and the next Guard codex.

As to your last point, OF COURSE WE ARE MOANING. GW supports Marines all the time. They are on the posters, the adverts, i the strting sets, have the most releases, are mentioned all the time, are shoehorned into every last bit of fluff and boxed game, even the ones they really do not belong in (Fall of Cadia, the new Armageddon game) and generally see more support than any other faction and also have the strongest rules. As a note, Tau, Eldar and Admech/Crons all receive a similar amount of support and they all sell amazingly well. What if IG where put in the limelight? Well, fix the gak codex and update the plastics and I guarantee that you would see a massive increase in sales. Look at what happened when Sisters received a new character (that premium Sister Superior/Battle Nun commander) and GW where shocked at how much their Sisters of battle sales skyrocketed over night with just a tiny mention and a new figure, but unfortunately they where too thick to put 2 + 2 together and instead dropped back to making yet more Marine fanwank.
If GW actually updated the figures for Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle as well as giving these armies some decent rules and support there is no reason as to why they should not sell at least as well as Marines. Hell, IG and SoB would easily out sell Marines as players whom had all but given up hope, or who where put off by the hilarious prices and ancient models, suddenly found themselves presented with new, decent, models at reasonable prices. marines sales would be tiny in comparison, but once again GW is too thick to see this.

Wait are people saying "there's not many marines in-universe therefor they should be the most powerful in-game", unironically?

Cause by the most literal reading of the lore, there's fewer Sisters of Battle than there are Marines, therefor by that logic Sisters of Battle should be the most powerful, not Marines.

 Melissia wrote:
Wait are people saying "there's not many marines in-universe therefor they should be the most powerful in-game", unironically?

Cause by the most literal reading of the lore, there's fewer Sisters of Battle than there are Marines, therefor by that logic Sisters of Battle should be the most powerful, not Marines.

I don't say that. I say there are a lot more marines than GW says there are. Because math and logic.

I was not responding to what you said, Martel.

Anarchy in the forums!

 Melissia wrote:
Wait are people saying "there's not many marines in-universe therefor they should be the most powerful in-game", unironically?

Cause by the most literal reading of the lore, there's fewer Sisters of Battle than there are Marines, therefor by that logic Sisters of Battle should be the most powerful, not Marines.

Yep it would be (using current range):

Guard / Mechanicus - Marines - Sisters - Custodes - Primarch / Saint

So not far off just one glaring issue where the rules for Sisters are concerned

That list would be utterly hilarious. Sorry Space Marines, but you just aren't Sisters of Battle, so you're just not elite enough!

...So by that argument can I start complaining that the Phoenix Lords ought to be more powerful than the Primarchs? There are seven (possibly with two more that don't have rules right now), compared to eighteen Primarchs.

Heck, why are Phoenix Lords weaker than Warlord Titans? Are you going to tell me there are fewer than seven Warlord Titans in the galaxy?

How about Mantas? Why are Mantas strong? They're so common they come out of spaceships in squadrons!

By that logic the Swarmlord, being a unique tyranid organism and one-of-a-kind, is the most elite of all and should be able to OHKO primarchs.

This is getting silly, but in a fun way.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
By that logic the Swarmlord, being a unique tyranid organism and one-of-a-kind, is the most elite of all and should be able to OHKO primarchs.

This is getting silly, but in a fun way.

And The Red Gobbo should be able to stand toe-to-toe with the Swarmlord?

Creed should be able to outflank entire titan legions. Into the enemies deployment one. On turn one.
Because there is only one TACTICAL GENIUS in the entire galaxy

 Melissia wrote:


Cause by the most literal reading of the lore, there's fewer Sisters of Battle than there are Marines . . .

There are? I always thought the Sisters numbered in the millions.

Time to pull out the old Witch Hunters book again. . .

(Insert comment about the dangers of 'most literal reading') but hey, let's satisfy some curiosity.

Well we've had our fun making fun of the silly argument. The point is, "power levels", to use a shounen anime term, are independent of a thing's rarity.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:


Cause by the most literal reading of the lore, there's fewer Sisters of Battle than there are Marines . . .

There are? I always thought the Sisters numbered in the millions.

Time to pull out the old Witch Hunters book again. . .

(Insert comment about the dangers of 'most literal reading') but hey, let's satisfy some curiosity.

After Matt Ward was through butchering them for the Grey Knights those millions had become hundreds.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:


Cause by the most literal reading of the lore, there's fewer Sisters of Battle than there are Marines . . .

There are? I always thought the Sisters numbered in the millions.

By logical readings, yes. But not LITERAL readings.

By the most literal reading of the various Sisters books, there are at most a few hundred thousand Sisters of Battle, and that's being generous.

For some reason I had the idea that any Ecclesiarchal person or place of significance (of which there would be at least a few thousand) would have a small retinue of Adepta Sororitas and that a shrine world by itself would have at least a few hundred.

That sucks that they made it a few hundred at most. I tend to shy away from fielding entire armies of a faction that small on the tabletop. And here I was getting all hopeful for a plastic Sisters army.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
For some reason I had the idea that any Ecclesiarchal person or place of significance (of which there would be at least a few thousand) would have a small retinue of Adepta Sororitas and that a shrine world by itself would have at least a few hundred.

Probably because that's what the lore says. But the numbers described in the codices don't match the lore. Because GW has absolutely no sense of scale.

 Melissia wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:


Cause by the most literal reading of the lore, there's fewer Sisters of Battle than there are Marines . . .

There are? I always thought the Sisters numbered in the millions.

By logical readings, yes. But not LITERAL readings.

By the most literal reading of the various Sisters books, there are at most a few hundred thousand Sisters of Battle, and that's being generous.

I only have Witch Hunters and the 2nd Ed Sisters book, which I haven't looked at in a while. But in Witch Hunters I'm looking at the section where it says there's a "significant force" of Sisters anywhere there's an Ecclesiarchal cathedral, and there's at least one Ecclesiarchal cathedral on every major Imperial world. That's where I would get an estimation in the millions.

I'm also looking at the Order-Preceptory-Commandery-Mission org. Where it gives a Preceptory the max of 1,000 Sisters. Is that where you're getting the "literal" interpretation? The chart seems pretty flexible, with Greater Orders and sub-Orders specifically. Like a Greater Order could have a thousand sub-Orders, theoretically.

Used to be that Stormtroopers numbered in around 10 000, in the 5th ed codex, the Scion/AM 7th ed codex don't give hard numbers anymore, but with the variety of regiments/battalions/whatevers of Scions in their codex, I am sure there are more of them now.

God, seeing the term "power levels" brings me back to my days of arguing on Nasuverse and American Comic book forums (Hulk is simultaneously able to be threatened by the U.S military and yet able to threaten to make the entire Eastern Seaboard sink into the ocean if he takes a step too hard while sufficiently angry! :U). Let's not go there, it is a silly place.

Specifically it says the six major militant Orders Majoris have "tens of thousands of members" (an exact quote) while the Orders Minoris have "from a dozen to a few thousand" (not an exact quote), many of whom aren't necessarily Sisters Militant.

Basically, how many Sisters of Battle there are depends on how many Orders Minoris there are and how big they are and how many of their members are Sisters of Battle. Could be anywhere from less than a hundred thousand, to billions. We don't know. A purely literal reading will give us a very small number of Battle Sisters, however.

 Melissia wrote:
Specifically it says the six major militant Orders Majoris have "tens of thousands of members" (an exact quote) while the Orders Minoris have "from a dozen to a few thousand" (not an exact quote), many of whom aren't necessarily Sisters Militant.

Basically, how many Sisters of Battle there are depends on how many Orders Minoris there are and how big they are and how many of their members are Sisters of Battle. Could be anywhere from less than a hundred thousand, to billions. We don't know.

Ahh, thanks for the "tens of thousands" quote. I'll have to do a more thorough read later. Agreed that it's up to the quantity of the Order Minoris, which seems to be left completely open.

 Melissia wrote:
A purely literal reading will give us a very small number of Battle Sisters, however.

I'd argue that a purely literal reading doesn't even get you enough information for that assessment, too many gaps in information, some of which appears counter to others in the same book.

It's not like "There are about a thousand marines per chapter, and about a thousand chapters." which has popped up in multiple sources since 40K began.

Neither here nor there, I was mostly just checking if there was some mind-blowing info on Sisters.

Good to hear that there's other fluff out there about the Sisters having a decent sized force. I'll need to pick up some of the older books, and then if any heretics start spreading this blasphemy about there only being a few hundred Sisters I can slap them with it until they see things my way.

The bare minimum is likely 100k sisters. And that's pushing it.

I wish I had more time just now to respond to a lot of this, and I will when I have a moment, but for now, just let me say this.

It's truly painful watching you guys twist your half baked logic in order to try to continue to argue realities that are right in front of your face and should be obvious to any reasonable person.

No one said that a faction being more numerous should make them more powerful, that's just silly, but a culture that exists only in one city in the webway, and hides from the rest of the Galaxy, keeping to them selves and concerning themselves only with their own petty interests, should not be as powerful as the most elite troops of a race that holds a Galaxy spanning empire. Sisters are the elite of the Eclisiarchy, which is only a faction within the Imperium, and one that is flaunting Imperial Law by having armed forces at all.

Get over yourselves for one second here and look at the big picture here, please.

 Weboflies wrote:
I wish I had more time just now to respond to a lot of this, and I will when I have a moment, but for now, just let me say this.

It's truly painful watching you guys twist your half baked logic in order to try to continue to argue realities that are right in front of your face and should be obvious to any reasonable person.

No one said that a faction being more numerous should make them more powerful, that's just silly, but a culture that exists only in one city in the webway, and hides from the rest of the Galaxy, keeping to them selves and concerning themselves only with their own petty interests, should not be as powerful as the most elite troops of a race that holds a Galaxy spanning empire. Sisters are the elite of the Eclisiarchy, which is only a faction within the Imperium, and one that is flaunting Imperial Law by having armed forces at all.

Get over yourselves for one second here and look at the big picture here, please.

This coming from the guy telling us that Marines are the best because mien ubersmench automatically have to be better than everything. Pot meet kettle much?

Uh, that "city" of Commorragh is the size of an entire world. It's not some isolated secret ninja village. It contains within it the remnants of Eldar society pre-fall, including much of their ancient and powerful technology and their history. Actually, I think the tech level at Commorragh is more advanced than the craftworlds.

Space Wolves recruit their entire chapter from a single feral death world, right? Fenris is just really well suited to producing Space Marines. Commorragh is really well suited to producing highly elite space pirates. The Space Wolves probably get a lot of outside support from the rest of the Imperium, but Commorragh has a lot of wealth of the Eldar from before the fall and they've been stealing stuff for many millennia afterwards.

I'm not very well versed in Dark Eldar fluff, but if I remember correctly Commoragh is (was?) gigantic and had a huge population. It was also fabulously wealthy, if I remember correctly. Being a space pirate is the number one profession there. Eldar are, if I remember correctly, much better soldiers on average than normal humans due to their speed, agility, reaction time and intelligence. Not to mention they live a really long time, have access to advanced technology, and I think the Dark Eldar pull some shenanigans letting them come back into a new body if they get killed (or at least some do).

So if there was a country of a billion normal humans they would normally be able to field a much better basketball team than a country of five million humans. However, if that small country was very wealthy, completely obsessed with basketball, had the technology to keep its athletes in competitive physical shape for far longer than the more populous country and the average height of people in the less populous country was a full two feet taller than the more populous country then the less populous country could probably field at least one highly competitive basketball team. (This is a really silly analogy, I know. )

So that's my understanding of the Dark Eldar. They don't have the raw numbers to go head-to-head with the Imperium of Man, but their pirates are elite enough to be a significant threat to extremely elite Imperial soldiers, such as Space Marines. (Same could be said for Craftworld Eldar.)