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 master of ordinance wrote:
No OP we do not. Marines already have:
>The most codex's available to use
>The largest number of formations available to use
>The most powerful formations
>The largest model range
>More characters than anyone else
>The most up to date model range in the game
>An ENTIRE VERSION OF 40K DEDICATED TO THEM (30K)

In the meantime the Sisters of battle languish with 3rd/4th edition rules and 20+ year old figures and the Guard stand by with 3rd edition infantry and 5th edition tanks crammed into 7th and kits that are nearly as old as the Sisters. Oh, and we just watched on of our iconic homeworlds fall and got NOTHING. Barely even a mention in the fluff.

(This quote is from several pages ago)

I tend to agree fairly strongly with MoO's sentiments. In fact, I'd like to add that not only did IG not get anything, but they LOST a famous world and are down 2 named characters (as if we'll see Creed again any time before 50k)

 Melissia wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Because it is a generic term

I don't find overly broad terms to be at all useful. Basically, you say "Space Marines are shock troops, they're so cool!" And random idiot on the internet can just respond "Yeah, so's my dick, there's nothing special about shock troops, even cops qualify under that definition, so why should I care that Space Marines are?"

Way to stay on topic.

Look, you said the term "shock troops" doesn't apply to marines, while the Wikipedia and Google definitions are basically synonymous with some primary marine doctrines (Drop Pod Assault, for example). If you have some insight feel free to share, but I don't think the "chain of command" reasoning holds up.

I'm mostly getting the idea that you really don't like marines (which is fine), but for all intents and purposes they appear to operate as shock troops and are described as such.

The special forces type of missions are also something that marines (especially scouts) undertake, for sure. But why that makes them not "shock troops" when they also deploy en-masse behind enemy lines and cut loose to create a beachhead or breakpoint. . . it's practically their MO.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm mostly getting the idea that you really don't like marines (which is fine)

There's a difference between "I don't think Space Marines are immortal gods on the battlefield" and "I hate Space Marines".

 Melissia wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm mostly getting the idea that you really don't like marines (which is fine)

There's a difference between "I don't think Space Marines are immortal gods on the battlefield" and "I hate Space Marines".

"Shock troops" is not synonymous with "immortal gods on the battlefield".

You realize I was basically trying to argue that Marines are more elite and important than mere "shock troops", right?

The Imperium has "Shock Troops" by the untold trillions. But they only have a million Space Marines. Marines are a step above mere "shock troops". They're something else.

I mean FFS, what's with people making me defend things I normally don't defend these days?

 Weboflies wrote:
OMG, you guys are hilarious. GW drops one of the best new units in the game on Sisters, and you find a way to complain about it.

As noted above, Sisters didn't get anything that every other Imperial army didn't, and the Sisters actually get less out of Celestine than most other Imperial factions anyway. They just took a character that used to be exclusive to the Sisters, and gave her to everyone else.

You can't use here the same way you did before... Oh no. Do you need a tissue? You guys remind me of people I used to hang out with in the nineties, who would complain that the radio didn't play any of the bands they liked, and the second those bands saw a shred of success, they'd call them sellouts and shittalk them. If your armies did get support, you'd probably hate it, and be on here complaining about how GW "ruined" them. Professional complainers. No more time for that right now sorry.

Except GW has gone and ruined a lot of them. Look at what the Inquisition/Imperial Agents codecies did to the Inquisition, it left it as nothing more than a wholly incapable and bland shadow of everything that its fluff implied. And the IG updates actively remove options just keep taking stuff away. A lot of these releases come off as extremely lazy afterthoughts meant to act as a stopgap before each non-marine faction fades into nothingness with the Squats.

 Melissia wrote:
You realize I was basically trying to argue that Marines are more elite and important than mere "shock troops", right?

The Imperium has "Shock Troops" by the untold trillions. But they only have a million Space Marines. Marines are a step above mere "shock troops". They're something else.

I mean FFS, what's with people making me defend things I normally don't defend these days?

Well the intentions were pretty unclear if I may say, and from a strategic standpoint they are often deployed as shock troops, and being elite doesn't really change that. Surely the IG has it's own brand (insert Cadian Shock Troop reference here), but as noted, especially during a multi-Imperial-task-force engagement, the Space Marines naturally fill the role in the broader picture.

Exploring the difference between special forces and shock troops would have been interesting, it's probably not simply tomato tomahto.

The way the Imperium deploys its marines doesn't really gel too well with German Sturmtruppen units in the first world war or Shock divisions and their equivalents employed in the second world war. Shock divisions tended to emphasize the ability to infiltrate into their positions and overwhelming firepower from artillery and infantry over operational mobility (in the first world war because Germany had all of twenty tanks between the entire Heer, in the second because the tanks and mechanized/motorized troops were to exploit the breaches the shock troops made), with the armoured support they did have tending to come from assault guns and heavy tanks rather than more mobile medium tanks.

Standard Astartes tactics lend themselves more to acting as a swift and deadly rapier than as a brutal sledgehammer as is traditionally demanded by historical shock trooper tactics. For one thing, the Astartes' armoured support doesn't have the brute firepower of the Guard's and instead relies more on mobility and precision. The Astartes really are closer to a Special forces unit with greater than normal materiel support; more akin to the VDV than the Shock Divisions.

 Weboflies wrote:
OMG, you guys are hilarious. GW drops one of the best new units in the game on Sisters, and you find a way to complain about it.

Well, the GW online store says:

Space Marines - 118

Adepta Sororitas - 26

Not to mention all the typical stuff belonging to specific chapters, not included under the generic SM label, and the entire 30k catalogue, all space marines.

A single model it's not significant, sisters are the only army with 20+ years old models, all in metal, and with boxes that cost 3 times the usual plastic ones.

Furthemore SM are the most broken army in the game with eldar, they only need huge nerfs, not new stuff.

And the unit in question doesn't even work properly with Sisters. She's best fit in her current rules incarnation with an SM army in the first place.

 Weboflies wrote:

Master of Ordinance, as much fun as it's been arguing these points with you, it's frankly exhausting having to constantly illustrate how inacurate myopic, delusional, and willfuly ignorant a lot of what you're saying

I just think that this needs highlighting here guys:
The guy who is a big marine lover and who tells us that the reason marines sell better than anything else is because everyone loves them and secretly wants to be them and that it has nothing to do with them being the most publicised faction, most up to date faction, most loved, etc, and thatmore Marine sales and releases are better for us none marine players - IE we IG/SoB/Ork/Chaos players because reasons is now claiming the above.

Make of this what you will.

GW has created a self-fulfilling prophecy with marines. They only care about model sales. So in their mind, this is best done with the "good guys" and then a bunch opponents for them. Even though I would not characterize the IoM as "good" at all.

Martel732 wrote:
GW has created a self-fulfilling prophecy with marines. They only care about model sales. So in their mind, this is best done with the "good guys" and then a bunch opponents for them. Even though I would not characterize the IoM as "good" at all.

^This. Its elementary level marketing. If you are a business with a large product line but all you advertise & update is one product among many, is it any surprise that one product is going to be your most successful? Look at Blackie's example for instance. GW online store:

Space Marines - 118

Adepta Sororitas - 26

That doesn't even include all the marines available on 40k Forgeworld, let alone 30k Forgeworld.

Is anyone surprised that SoB aren't selling well, when 95%+ of their army hasn't been updated in two decades, can't be bought in store, & cost x3 what a normal army costs? SM players need to understand, we aren't picking on them. We are pointing out that if this trend continues this setting is going to die. When 90% of the occupants within a setting get ignored edition after edition, the narrative/immersion ceases to exist. I play guard and my regiment hasn't been updated in 17 years. Imagine playing an army where you haven't been discussed in the fluff in almost two decades. 40k has a massive rich background that doesn't even include marines. Its time GW started talking about it.

Ever looked through the Black Library?
It's suprisingly IoM and Space Marine skewed - there is a lot of information I don't have regarding how a writer gets published but the fact most chapters (even chaos chapters) have a similar or greater number of books than any other race suggests a few possibilities.
1. GW mostly publishes Space Marine stories - end of story.
2. Space Marine stories sell much better than any other race.
3. There aren't many people who can write aliens well. Orcs are the exception, they talk like three year olds but have the brains of mechanical engineers - mechanical engineers who really like fighting.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Ever looked through the Black Library?
It's suprisingly IoM and Space Marine skewed - there is a lot of information I don't have regarding how a writer gets published but the fact most chapters (even chaos chapters) have a similar or greater number of books than any other race suggests a few possibilities.
1. GW mostly publishes Space Marine stories - end of story.
2. Space Marine stories sell much better than any other race.
3. There aren't many people who can write aliens well. Orcs are the exception, they talk like three year olds but have the brains of mechanical engineers - mechanical engineers who really like fighting.

"Allow me to retort........"

Have you read many of the BL novel's?

Many of them are surprisingly full of "shock" non Marine characters - yeah there is bolter porn but there are (with the better authors - Abnet, ADB, Mitchel and quite a few others) plenty of non Marine characters - usually helping to emphasise the sheer inhuman nature of the Astartes.

So say Wrath of Iron (A Highly recommended read)- a brutal depiction of the Iron Hands at war but this is shown not only from the pov of the Marines but also the other Imperial forces - in this case and most particularly the Adeptus Mechancium, I would contend that their story and depiction together with the story of hapless civilian couple caught up in the horror makes the book so much more than just "UHH Marines shoot bad guys" and is essential to making it a great novel.

Same with Helsreach - another quality "Space marine" novel that has so many important non marines. Same with the Night Lords novels, etc etc etc

So your retort to most of the Black Library being "Bolter Porn" is that there are other characters in Space Marine novels?
Like Space Marines don't show up in other races' novels...

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
So your retort to most of the Black Library being "Bolter Porn" is that there are other characters in Space Marine novels?
Like Space Marines don't show up in other races' novels...

The really annoying bit is when they show up being op-mary-sues in other races. novels.

(Spoilers for Path of the Warrior follow)

My favourite (/sarcasm) part of Fall of Cadia was how every other line about an Imperial Guard regiment doing something heroic, there always seemed to be something added on at the paragraph along the lines of , "...but none could compare to the overwhelming bravery/skill of the Black Templars/Dark Angels/Imperial Fists/Space Wolves." The whole thing read like it was the twin's birthday party (IG/SoB) but the whiny favourite child had to be placated, or else he'd throw a tantrum every time he didn't receive a present as well or get told how extra special he was.

Valkyrie squadron go up against Traitor Titans and are wiped out sacrificing themselves to just ram them instead? LOOK KIDS, IT'S THE STORMHAWKS SHOOTING DOWN HELDRAKES!

Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard hold the line in a sector on the brink? LOOK KIDS, THE DARK ANGELS DO EVEN BETTER!

Karskin reinforce a breach left by retreating conscripts? LOOK KIDS, THE BLACK TEMPLARS ARE HERE TO REINFORCE YOU!

Cadian 8th sacrifice themselves to hold the evacuation fields so the remnants of the Imperial forces can get away? LOOK KIDS, HALF THE BLACK TEMPLARS ARE SACRIFICING THEMSLEVES TO HOLD OFF THE BLACK LEGION!

Bolter-porn was always going to appear. I think everybody accepted that. But when one of three books is dedicated entirely to it, you'd think they could at least give the Imperial Guard/SoB their moment in the sun, even if it turns out to be loss in the end. At least they could have had a swan song of sorts before the entire setting becomes Horus Heresy 2.0.

Fafnir wrote:Except GW has gone and ruined a lot of them. Look at what the Inquisition/Imperial Agents codecies did to the Inquisition, it left it as nothing more than a wholly incapable and bland shadow of everything that its fluff implied. And the IG updates actively remove options just keep taking stuff away. A lot of these releases come off as extremely lazy afterthoughts meant to act as a stopgap before each non-marine faction fades into nothingness with the Squats.

I'm not quite sure what the issue with Inquisition would be, since the vast majority of their fluff is something along the lines of "Inquisitor Bob grabs whatever regiment happens to be in the area, and tells them to go do whatever", so it's a bit odd for them to have their own private army in the first place.

master of ordinance wrote:I just think that this needs highlighting here guys:
The guy who is a big marine lover and who tells us that the reason marines sell better than anything else is because everyone loves them and secretly wants to be them and that it has nothing to do with them being the most publicised faction, most up to date faction, most loved, etc, and thatmore Marine sales and releases are better for us none marine players - IE we IG/SoB/Ork/Chaos players because reasons is now claiming the above.

Make of this what you will.

Eh....he's still right, or at least the actual point he made vs your butchered strawman is right. Sure, there's probably some tiny portion of players who decided to play marines because of whatever your point is supposed to be, but for the vast, vast, vast majority....I'm assuming they didn't decide to spent hundreds of dollars and a huge portion of their time making an army that they don't like, just because it has more books and a few video games. Do you think the pauldrons have mind control powers and will force someone who really likes the core playstyle or concept or models of nids or IG to play marines instead? I considered running Tau instead of marines (still do, really) but decided against it because for all the stuff that Tau can do on the tabletop that I liked (which wasn't a huge thing, and there's a lot not to like), I don't like most of the models or the faction as much as I liked marines.

Marines have always been prominent, sure. But other armies have also gotten way more support and way more press in the past.....and marines still sold more. E: Heck, you even said that eldar have, baring one edition, always been superior to marines, and yet have never matched them in sales. Strange.

 Battlegrinder wrote:

Marines have always been prominent, sure. But other armies have also gotten way more support and way more press in the past.....

You are joking, right?

About the only time Space Marines have been somewhat 'close' to a even playing field in terms of support with other armies was 3rd. Even then they still had Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Black Templars/Salamander spin-off lists, but back then they received maybe one unique kit each (if that) and a few metals. They weren't getting their own frigging tactical marine boxes as well as all the other unnecessary crap the loyalist Space Marines get these days. Hell, that's not to mention all the mini IoM armies shoved out first and foremost so they can be bought as allies for Space Marines.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Battlegrinder wrote:

Marines have always been prominent, sure. But other armies have also gotten way more support and way more press in the past.....

You are joking, right?

About the only time Space Marines have been somewhat 'close' to a even playing field in terms of support with other armies was 3rd. Even then they still had Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Black Templars/Salamander spin-off lists, but back then they received maybe one unique kit each (if that) and a few metals. They weren't getting their own frigging tactical marine boxes as well as all the other unnecessary crap the loyalist Space Marines get these days. Hell, that's not to mention all the mini IoM armies shoved out first and foremost so they can be bought as allies for Space Marines.

What I meant was "they had more support than now", not "more support than marines". And since still marines still outsold everyone else, I don't think this is just a matter of support.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
So your retort to most of the Black Library being "Bolter Porn" is that there are other characters in Space Marine novels?
Like Space Marines don't show up in other races' novels...

Uggghh - sigh - read the post.

 Arbitrator wrote:
My favourite (/sarcasm) part of Fall of Cadia was how every other line about an Imperial Guard regiment doing something heroic, there always seemed to be something added on at the paragraph along the lines of , "...but none could compare to the overwhelming bravery/skill of the Black Templars/Dark Angels/Imperial Fists/Space Wolves." The whole thing read like it was the twin's birthday party (IG/SoB) but the whiny favourite child had to be placated, or else he'd throw a tantrum every time he didn't receive a present as well or get told how extra special he was.

Valkyrie squadron go up against Traitor Titans and are wiped out sacrificing themselves to just ram them instead? LOOK KIDS, IT'S THE STORMHAWKS SHOOTING DOWN HELDRAKES!

Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard hold the line in a sector on the brink? LOOK KIDS, THE DARK ANGELS DO EVEN BETTER!

Karskin reinforce a breach left by retreating conscripts? LOOK KIDS, THE BLACK TEMPLARS ARE HERE TO REINFORCE YOU!

Cadian 8th sacrifice themselves to hold the evacuation fields so the remnants of the Imperial forces can get away? LOOK KIDS, HALF THE BLACK TEMPLARS ARE SACRIFICING THEMSLEVES TO HOLD OFF THE BLACK LEGION!

Bolter-porn was always going to appear. I think everybody accepted that. But when one of three books is dedicated entirely to it, you'd think they could at least give the Imperial Guard/SoB their moment in the sun, even if it turns out to be loss in the end. At least they could have had a swan song of sorts before the entire setting becomes Horus Heresy 2.0.

Ugh, dont. Half the Cadian 8th sacrifice themselves, forming a living wall between the fallen Celestine and a eleven/twelve millennia old genetically engineered killing machine and his bodyguard to buy her time to recover, BUT THESE AMAZING SPACE WOLVES TURNED ALL HAIRY AND HULKED OUT AND LIKE RIPPED THE gak OUT OF CHAOS REINFORCEMENTS!11!!11!!1111
I hate Space Marines.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
My favourite (/sarcasm) part of Fall of Cadia was how every other line about an Imperial Guard regiment doing something heroic, there always seemed to be something added on at the paragraph along the lines of , "...but none could compare to the overwhelming bravery/skill of the Black Templars/Dark Angels/Imperial Fists/Space Wolves." The whole thing read like it was the twin's birthday party (IG/SoB) but the whiny favourite child had to be placated, or else he'd throw a tantrum every time he didn't receive a present as well or get told how extra special he was.

Valkyrie squadron go up against Traitor Titans and are wiped out sacrificing themselves to just ram them instead? LOOK KIDS, IT'S THE STORMHAWKS SHOOTING DOWN HELDRAKES!

Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard hold the line in a sector on the brink? LOOK KIDS, THE DARK ANGELS DO EVEN BETTER!

Karskin reinforce a breach left by retreating conscripts? LOOK KIDS, THE BLACK TEMPLARS ARE HERE TO REINFORCE YOU!

Cadian 8th sacrifice themselves to hold the evacuation fields so the remnants of the Imperial forces can get away? LOOK KIDS, HALF THE BLACK TEMPLARS ARE SACRIFICING THEMSLEVES TO HOLD OFF THE BLACK LEGION!

Bolter-porn was always going to appear. I think everybody accepted that. But when one of three books is dedicated entirely to it, you'd think they could at least give the Imperial Guard/SoB their moment in the sun, even if it turns out to be loss in the end. At least they could have had a swan song of sorts before the entire setting becomes Horus Heresy 2.0.

Ugh, dont. Half the Cadian 8th sacrifice themselves, forming a living wall between the fallen Celestine and a eleven/twelve millennia old genetically engineered killing machine and his bodyguard to buy her time to recover, BUT THESE AMAZING SPACE WOLVES TURNED ALL HAIRY AND HULKED OUT AND LIKE RIPPED THE gak OUT OF CHAOS REINFORCEMENTS!11!!11!!1111
I hate Space Marines.

Clearly, you are not the target audience of the mighty G-Dubs. Warhammer 40k endtimes : Now with ultra, ultra marines.

Get to painting.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
So your retort to most of the Black Library being "Bolter Porn" is that there are other characters in Space Marine novels?
Like Space Marines don't show up in other races' novels...

Uggghh - sigh - read the post.

I did read the post. If you failed to make a point you could always try re-writing it, I'm not going to ignore you.

Replace "space marine" with "white people" to see how laughable and hypocritical this whole situation/society in general is.

Cheers, from a non-white person who plays space marines.

 master of ordinance wrote:

I hate Space Marines.

You've made that very clear. The contempt you feel for those playing them is also very clear.

 Kain wrote:
The way the Imperium deploys its marines doesn't really gel too well with German Sturmtruppen units in the first world war or Shock divisions and their equivalents employed in the second world war. Shock divisions tended to emphasize the ability to infiltrate into their positions and overwhelming firepower from artillery and infantry over operational mobility (in the first world war because Germany had all of twenty tanks between the entire Heer, in the second because the tanks and mechanized/motorized troops were to exploit the breaches the shock troops made), with the armoured support they did have tending to come from assault guns and heavy tanks rather than more mobile medium tanks.

Standard Astartes tactics lend themselves more to acting as a swift and deadly rapier than as a brutal sledgehammer as is traditionally demanded by historical shock trooper tactics. For one thing, the Astartes' armoured support doesn't have the brute firepower of the Guard's and instead relies more on mobility and precision. The Astartes really are closer to a Special forces unit with greater than normal materiel support; more akin to the VDV than the Shock Divisions.

Thanks for replying about historical shock divisions.

I'd argue that "shock troops" as a term is more about strategic disposition rather than a description of tactics. So even though the "original" shock troops relied heavily on infiltration, they did so because it was a way to strike suddenly and without warning, and thus achieve the "shock". Space Marines use Drop Pods to do the same thing. IMO what's important for the use of the term "shock troops" is the effect, not the method.

As for "rapier" vs. "hammer", I'm not sure how important a distinction it is for the use of the term "shock troop". A primary notion regarding marines is that they are each "worth a 100 normal soldiers" or some such. Some of which is due to their individual capacity, but some of which is due to the mobility of their deployments. A major point is they can use their mobility and superhuman stamina to continue an assault for days or weeks if necessary, rather than deploy quickly and then bug out. They can exploit their own breach of enemy lines to a greater extent than a traditional shock division.

I'm also thinking along the lines of Epic Armageddon styles of deployments, where they function in greater numbers and with more support, rather than the traditional 40K engagements. We could also look at the traditional Legion deployments and contrast them to the current 40K Chapter deployments. The Legions perhaps fought more like historical shock regiments, while Chapters are necessarily bound to smaller, more maneuverable tactics.

Another question might be "What makes Special Forces not shock troops?" The mission seems different to me, but I'm no expert. Special Forces seems to be about sowing disarray behind enemy lines over a sustained period of time, while "shock troops" are more about breaking it all at once.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

I hate Space Marines.

You've made that very clear. The contempt you feel for those playing them is also very clear.

Is it any wonder when my army languishes without any updates and a constant shafting in the fluff, but Marines get more and more mentions and stories and their codex only goes from strength to strength?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Is it any wonder when my army languishes without any updates and a constant shafting in the fluff, but Marines get more and more mentions and stories and their codex only goes from strength to strength?

Absolutely. Jealousy of another army is not a rational reason for contempt of that army's players.