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I wouldn't be using venomthropes at all. As mentioned by several others the zoanthropes and hive guard are shaping up to be the most competitive options. Though it may be fun to give them a go in fluffy horde lists.

It seems that there are going to be so many models requiring melta or plasma to deal with them that we are just going to overload our opponents with models. No wonder warriors are T4. Imagine 9 warriors, a trygon, a mawloc and a carnifex all podding/deepstriking down into the enemy lines...and that's in 1.5k (roughly). There's only so much melta and plasma 1 opponent can bring.

All said and done I'm excited.

One thing I've learned about horde armies from running Orks, is that the little critters with negligible saves need to be protected. By the way, if the Venomthrope's ability works anything like the Kustom Force Field, monstrous creatures should be protected as well.

I figure on using a unit of Venomthropes at the moment. They seem like a rather cool unit to me, and an effective defensive one as well. I do think I've had to mod up the model for em though, give em legs and arms mostly.

Lukus83 wrote:You were right...you shouldn't.

And for a potential solution for FoxPhoenix135 for the alpha warrior variant...It's unlikely GW will ever make an actual model. Convert a regular warrior with whatever you feel appropriate. Of course you should probably wait a few more weeks if you wanna stick to official artwork, though for me I'm just gonna make it painfully obvious which one is "special" by adding a load of spikey stuff all over the carapace.

Alpha Warrior = 3rd ed "Alien Queen" Hive Tyrant. Easy.

So what is the date this codex is coming out? And what seem to be the best units.... also I have 6 carnifexes can I convert them into something more useful?

@ Schepp - Thanks again.

I've decided that its time to break open the boxes of old stuff: warriors from Advanced Space Crusade that hadn't seen the light of day in over a decade, and are older than some Dakkaites. (You know the drill: You. Lawn. Off.)

winterman wrote:Dakkafex I read was 200(!). Gains 2 cc attacks and 4 more shots but loses living ammo (so about .5 more MEq avg kills via shooting and more chances to shake vehicles)

I hope you haven't been re-rolling VS vehicles

So let's talk Gaunts again.

8 pts. per hormie with toxin. I'm not sure whether that's better than 1/3rd of another basic hormie, in a tourney setting. That's a brood of 20 basic versus 15 enhanced, or an extra brood of 20 for every two broods of 30 taken.

The poison will really help against Plague Marines (ironically), Crushers, Thunderwolves, daemons of all sorts, and other 'Nids. If you don't have anything in the middle strength range (Warriors) and your force is pretty much Guant hordes plus MC, poison seems like a good idea. The little guys will need teeth to chew through even MEQ if they're often doing it on their own until the big bugs get there (especially if the big bugs are shooting).

However if you _do_ field Warriors, Hive guard etc., it looks like saving the points on the little guys and just using them as a tarpit is the best buy.

Does that sound right, or am I missing anything obvious?

Also, is anyone else seriously interested by the mention of 5-point wings for Warriors? Either basic flyers for 35 points or 10 points more with bonesword and lash whip (total 45 points) seems like a really good buy to me for forward Synapse support (possibly with power weapons and I1 for enemies) that can get into CC quickly and either slaughter or be safe from shooting.

Savnock wrote:...8 pts. per hormie with toxin...

as a 4+ toxin, its spectacular. Since there's not a whole lot of t2 assault troops running around those 8 points can now threaten everything. Their responsibilities are never vehicles, so why would one ever throw them at one? 8 point 2A infantry shouldn't try to do *everything*.

Those 8 point horm. can now drag down that big beastie while Warriors can be dedicated to grind out the midsize MEQ and have less risk of instant death for a better return. Warriors seem to be filling a hive synapse and close fire support role rather than the big hitting unit. at 10 points for the Furious charge/poison the Horms have me thinking that Warriors are more of a close fire support role.

I blame this on limited information on the tyranid weapons.
Look at these (warpshadow spoilers)
Spike blaster
18” S5 AP 5 Assault 4
Deathspitter
18" S5 Ap5 Assault 3

Without knowing the point break on assault 1 we could conclude that deathspitters are a waste of points. If this wasn't Cruddace writing it I'd even expect there to be some reason to it - but then again we have the heavy stubber/storm bolter issue on IG tanks.

All the info we have is still a bit fuzzy - none of the weapon stats that would be critical to make a comparison with are truly available. Between translation issues and a lack of completeness the Tyranid weapons make little to no sense. (proposed S3 AP6 A2 primary weapon on a warrior? 18" S5 Ap2-4 Assault 2+
isn't enough to plan around.

Spectacular? I'd rather have Fenrisian Wolves. They're faster, tougher, and can try to take on vehicles if necessary. Most of the time, you don't give up much offense for those benefits. I'll still use poisoned Hormies, probably, but I wouldn't hand them the awesome troop title. If you're up against Demons, other Tyranids, or lots of nobs, though, they're pretty vicious.

Except Codex: Tyranids =/= Codex: Space Wolves so it's silly to compare hormogaunts to wolves. If wolves are indeed a troop choice for Puppies than you are sacrificing GH's to take wolves (and to me that's a no-brainer to spam GH's) whereas for what their intended purpose is horms are the best in terms of cheapness troop the new nids will have. I still argue that 'stealers are infinitely better (at least currently) but horm's don't look to be a bad unit.

I think too many people are still picking apart this codex like everything should work in a vacuum. To me this codex does a better job exemplifying synergy than any 5th ed. codex to date. I don't really see one super solid, no brainer build in this army. Sure the picture will become clearer on January 16th (or sooner) but I see viable hordes, I see nidzilla and I see mixed all being relatively close to one another in power.

Again only the final codex will tell so until then lets try not to have people suffering anymore torn acl's.

Hmmm, you got me thinking about 'stealers now Fateweaver.

I'm interested to see if they perform a similar role to that of hormies (like now, which makes the 'stealers a no-brainer). They are both fast moving assault units. Both now have a sickly high I. It's looks as though they may still compete...although hormies have the disadvantage of being unable to hurt AV 10 unless you get furious charge. I'm sure there will be some differences though...

Mostly points I think. I'm considering hormogaunts and I was the only one in my group who thought they sucked in 4th (also the only 'nid player so I think opponents wanted easy kp's).

6pts more for a naked stealer that has slightly better stats. If you opt to tack on a BL (and who doesn't want to for as cheap as he now is and can get a couple really fun abilities/psi powers) that ups them even more.

If I was to go strictly horde I'd probably take 6 x 20 or 30 gaunts/gants; I'm leaning toward a mixed force so my 2 stealer broods will be supported by some gants and horm's.

I'm personally thinking going all out on hormagaunts with warriors (+ alpha) for synapse. Perhaps even a synapse trygon if points allow. I'm not entirely sure yet though as we have yet to see what the new codex will bring in terms of biomorphs and stats of creatures, although they should be similar to the previous edition 'dex.

Yeah, a few biomorphs not talked about yet so will either not exist or nobody has paid them much mind.

I'd like to get lictors to work but I'll have to experiment to see if I can. Guess if nothing more they are cheaper and give +1 to reserves.

They still should have had some sort of invul save in assault, that's where the galaxies deadliest predator sucks....LOL.

MilkmanAl wrote:Spectacular? I'd rather have Fenrisian Wolves. They're faster, tougher, and can try to take on vehicles if necessary. Most of the time, you don't give up much offense for those benefits. I'll still use poisoned Hormies, probably, but I wouldn't hand them the awesome troop title. If you're up against Demons, other Tyranids, or lots of nobs, though, they're pretty vicious.

fenrisian wolves wouldn't be fearless in synapse, aren't scoring, and aren't troops unless you buy a 185 point character...

It doesn't get more apples/oranges than that. I get that you want the 12" charge back... but I'll take the 4 point cost reduction, access to poison and FC, and the access to a drop pod over 4th edition hormagaunts.

And furious charging hormagaunts have just as many strength 4 attacks as fenrisian wolves if you are looking to use an inappropriate tool to attack a vehicle.


As for troops... I've figured out how I'm going to equip my hormies, and so I've started painting them. Termagants I am still cluesless about, as we don't have 100% confirmed information on gun statlines and costs.

But how about genestealers? Schepp's last bit of info on them gave us most of what we need...

same statline as 4th edition, all old upgrades gone. New upgrades include poison, furious charge and scything talons... seems like all those options cost more than one and less than three... and the stealer itself is "less than a grey hunter"

naked seems pretty good for the cost. Poison makes them much more dangerous against T4+ obviously. I could see using it. Scything talons are basically gonna be letting you re-roll half of your misses. That seems pretty good as well. Furious charge seems a little overcosted. With base initiative 6, there aren't going to be a lot of situations where you celebrate that +1. Strength 5 sounds nice, but if you've already gone down the poison road, it isn't going to yield that many more wounds than poison strength 4 will.

Strength 5 does threaten vehicles quite a bit, especially in conjunction with scytals (if they are unrestricted re-rolls as we have been told) but I know from experience that a 5+ save unit that gets that bunched up on a vehicle is usually scooped with little fuss in the following shooting phase. Mech armies pack way too much flamer for genestealers to have any plans on killing tanks.

So what do you guys think?

14 points? 16 points? 18 points? or keep spending the 20 we've already been spending and getting a REALLY scary unit out of it?

ChaosDave wrote:I thought the venom save was similar to a kustom force field? Which means that vehicles and possibly MC count as obscured.

warpcrafter wrote:By the way, if the Venomthrope's ability works anything like the Kustom Force Field, monstrous creatures should be protected as well.

Well, they said the same thing about stormcaller and that ended up affecting only non-vehicle units. Also, KFF doesn't provide concealment to MC (of course there isn't any in the dex) just vehicles. This would be a first. So not saying that venthropes won't effect MC, just that I wouldn't get my hopes up.

I do agree with warpcraft that the little guys could greatly benefit from cover, but the thrope is competing in a slot that contains your most effective ranged anti-tank weapons...a proven nessessity for 5th edition and one of the main reasons that nids have floundered so far in 5th. If Zoes weren't BS 4, AP 1 and lance, I would say sure, use a thrope. But, they really made Zoes and Hive Guard attractive tank hunters.

The thropes supposedly come in broods up to 3, so if I was going to take thropes (say if I knew I wasn't going up against mech), then I would probably take at least 2 in a brood because as Shep pointed out, they are only toughness 4. Taking one is just asking for a long fang squad, heavy weapons team, preditor to take a insta-kill shot at them.

It is still kinda early for list building, but so far I am wanting to try this:

HT w/ VC, Ancient Enemy, Psychic Scream
HT w/ VC, +1 reserve ability, Psychic Scream
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
3 Zoes
25 Block of Hormies w/ Venom
25 Block of Hormies w/ Venom
30 Block of guants
Trygon
Mawloc
Biovores

Should be around 1850
*might sub out a HT for a few tervawhatitz depending on how bad that "death to all gaunts" drawback is


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shep wrote:And furious charging hormagaunts have just as many strength 4 attacks as fenrisian wolves if you are looking to use an inappropriate tool to attack a vehicle.

Couldn't said it better myself.

I have 1 brood of 10 without Talons and one brood of 12 with.

Not sure on the poison front. I could see taking it as even though you are wounding most things on 4+ anyway, rerolling 1's, 2's and 3's when wounding will help increase the rending wounds rolled.

I felt that stealers base cost was fairly priced, just that some biomorphs were OP and some were UP. 1pt preferred enemy was too cheap but I felt sacs and talons were too costly.

Talons and carapace and feeder and scuttlers is what my stealers had for 28 pts per. Now they are still as good (better against T6 or higher) but cheaper. So now my Talon stealers might weigh in at 17pts plus whatever poison costs. Sure I lost the ability to save against bolters and anything else AP5 but for lets say 20pts tops for talons and poison I'm hitting MEQ's on 3's, rerolling 1's; wounding on 4's; rerolling 1's,2's and 3's and now BL is a sqaud upgrade for around 1/2 his current cost, loses power weapon attacks but gains the ability to cripple a squads nasty hitters plus infiltrate at no extra cost.

My scuttling, feeder, taloned, carapaced stealers went from 28pts per to lets say 20 pts per, gained a 1/2 cost BL who no longer takes up an HQ slot, gained infiltrate and gained the ability for their leader to gain 2 crippling psi powers.

What's not to love about these guys?

I hope you haven't been re-rolling VS vehicles

With living ammo? Of course not. "(so about .5 more MEq avg kills via shooting and more chances to shake vehicles)" was in regards to the new 200ish point dakka fex since it has 4 more shots then the current one.

Regarding genestealers, some points to consider:

--Early rumors indicated stealers would be cheaper but also lose a point of I and WS. I am assuming Schepp knows they are WS6 and I6 but maybe not? I wouldn'tbe upset if they went to I5 and WS5 though (could be much worse)

--Infiltrate bundled is pretty nice, throw back to 3ed. But I will be livid if they go all the way back and remove fleet. Rumors indicate they keep it though.

--Broodlord upgrade was sounding sweet as hell till he lost his power weapon. He is sounding more like an expensive frag grenade update then anything. I want to get a clear read of his psychic powers and points before buying any more broodlords but I can see mine staying off the shelf and on the table for testing (and maybe getting off my ass and painting my SH one).

--The biomorphs they can take seem ok, poison being nice for troop killing (seen what doom does for harlies, good stuff) and furious charge being purely for backup tank killing. Reroll 1's if its 1 point it might be worth it, but I ain't redoing all my stealers so I'll never use it regardless (I can add glands or paint my claws green easy enough).

All in all stealers ended up in good shape, better then I expected. However there's two things that give me pause that no one has discussed above that I see
----No extended carapace is a bummer imo, as I am of the opinion they are better with a 4+ save. This is especially true if you are making use of infiltrate. I'll deal with it though
----Losing move through cover (if true) is big also. For one infiltrating assaulters really benefit from it. Hell foot slogging assaulters in general really need it. For two 5+ save stealers can't be dilly dallying but yet absolutely have to use cover or perish from everyones most basic weaponry. I will lament the future charges that fail cause I could roll an extra dice.
----Frag grenades only via broodlord. Learned the hard way that stealers are the suck when going last. 5+ save I think would be even worse.

14 points? 16 points? 18 points? or keep spending the 20 we've already been spending and getting a REALLY scary unit out of it?

Based on my experience using the current stealers, I'd keep em 14 and if adding anything it would be the broodlord before anything else (for frag grenades and possibly the neato powers). I just can't stomach putting more points on them without a 4up save. Now if going full on stealer shock, then I could see mixing in some poison and furious charge -- but I am gonna play around with the new toys before trying out stealer shock again.

Shep wrote:naked seems pretty good for the cost. Poison makes them much more dangerous against T4+ obviously. I could see using it.
So what do you guys think? 14 points? 16 points? 18 points? or keep spending the 20 we've already been spending and getting a REALLY scary unit out of it?

I think the benefit of Talons over taking an extra attacker is too little to be worth using them at the speculated cost. They do not make enough impact against Infantry. I think my basic Genestealers will just have Poison.

If you have the points to take a full 12 Genestealers I could see the Furious Charge/Talon's combo working without Poison if your opponents run a lot of vehicles. However the 48 points spent on those two upgrades could buy you 98% of an extra Hive Guard with a Str 8 gun. He is much more likely to pop a transport at range than the genestealers are to rip it open.

I agree with winterman re the apparent loss of an extended carapace option for stealers - having them die en masse to plain bolters and similar weapons will really hurt. They seem expensive to be 'glass hammer' units, but the cost may restrict them to playing them that way: units which jump out of cover and (hopefully) cause mass bloodshed for one turn before being shot into green ooze the next turn.

Of course, as a Starship Troopers film fan, I have to admit that such a play style is certainly fluffy

Do `Stealers still get any kind of option letting Outflank?

Stealers are rumored to have infiltrate as standard now, so if true they can outflank.

Infiltrate allows you to outflank instead of setting up in an infiltrating position.

Very little is known about the new codex so maybe Tyranids retain "move through cover" army wide. People tend to gloss over rules that exist now and go right to the shiny new things.

Assuming the points costs I mentioned earlier my 'stealers get 8 pts cheaper per model...that's 96 pts saved and I go from 4 attacks on charge to 3 attacks rerolling any pesky ones that come up and I gain the ability to increase the possible number of "rends" by getting to reroll failed wound rolls against anything T4 or less.

Even losing the PW option for the BL he is rumored to retain his stats so will go first against 99% of anything out there, has 4 attacks on charge, hits on 3's, wounds on 2's with rending.

45 pts seems to not be a bad deal to me, just depends on the costs of his abilities.

Maybe carapace is still an option. I'm doubting it but we have too little info to know much of anything.

I have been translating from the German -
We had a rumour about weapon upgrades for MC's so it looks like little guns on big bugs are decent. Also only one set of Claws.

www.gw-fanworld.net wrote:Carnifex:
1-3 as a gang, KG3 BF3 S9 W6 LP4 I1 A4 MW7 RW3 160Pkt, 2xSensenklauen. 2 Ini in the attack. This is the base for 160P. Can be armed furthermore with
bioplasma. 12 " S7 DS2 Sturm1, Explosive.
adrenalin (Raving attack) and toxin (poison 4).
Once (1) scissors claws.
(1) Biozid or sting strangler.
Regeneration.
A spore capsule for 40P (only single).
Neuralfresser and Säurespucker. With the Neuro has he believes I the variation with brain worms (twice as much shot). I mean he could get a few more toys as for example an injector

Neuralfresser: 18 " S4 AP - Assault 3
With brain worms [Hirnwürmer] updates for monstrous Creaturen: 18 " S6 AP - Assault 6

This is just a funny online translation of "glancing" and shows Strangers are still Pinning.

www.gw-fanworld.net wrote:Heavy Venom Cannon - R:48 S:9 AP:4 Assault 1 Blowing
Not open vehicles receive an additional modifier -1 determining result on the vehicle damage table (-3 with go-faster stripe shots)

Barbed Strangler - R:24 S:4 DS:6 storms 1, 5" stencils, holding down
Stranglethorn Cannon - R:36 S:6 DS:4 storms 1, 5" stencils, holding down

Info on the Trygon Tunnels I had not seen posted?

www.gw-fanworld.net wrote:Trygon Tunnels
STarting the turn AFTER Trygon arives. One Infantry unit [no wings or MC's] can come through the tunnel from reserves.

Fateweaver wrote:Infiltrate allows you to outflank instead of setting up in an infiltrating position.

Even losing the PW option for the BL he is rumored to retain his stats so will go first against 99% of anything out there, has 4 attacks on charge, hits on 3's, wounds on 2's with rending.

45 pts seems to not be a bad deal to me, just depends on the costs of his abilities.

Maybe carapace is still an option. I'm doubting it but we have too little info to know much of anything.

The Brood lord gains compared to a genestealer +1 to almost any stat. +2 wounds actually. If he has a PW I don't know (think not considering the cost). When I look at the odd pointcosts for him, I wager if a stealer must be upgraded a la sargent. Making him a bit more expensive.
Carapace is, iirc, not an option for Genestealers, Yrmgal-stealers have it standard, though. Yrmgal stealers look pretty nice for little over 20 points. Especially because they can "morph" in their turn to get various stat-boosts.
Infiltrate (and move through cover?) is standard on stealers.

Another question asked here: Carnifex have the instinctive behavior: feed. So they run towards enemies if they fail their instinctive behavior test. Bummer for a gunfex.
Every Unit that has instinctive behavior has either lurk or feed as a reaction.

Genestealers are still with their good 'ol stats. I did not look at it closely, but I think I would've been surprised if it changed. Fleet is still in for them, too. They are pretty nice for their costs, but you have to protect them, as various posters already pointed out.

Scything talons are reroll 1s for one pair and reroll all for two.

And biomorphs are pretty much gone. Many units have upped stats already as base (Carnifex, Hive Tyrant...) and can mostly get the toxin or adrenal ones.

Did I forget anything?

Greets
Schepp himself

P.s. Sorry, I totally forgot to look up the basic weapon costs/stats. Maybe when those are known, shooting tyranids will get some love here. At the moment, I think the discussion shifts a it to the melee units. That may be because I'm totall biased towards melee tyranids. Some stuff to consider.

All sounds very good. BL currently I think is +1 over every stat of a normal stealer but +2 wounds so no change, loss of pw attacks but now no longer an IC, a couple of pretty nice abilities and a 35pt price drop.

Even with no upgrade other than toxin he is a 45pt sargeant that could smack around a PA Chaplain or PA Libby without breaking too much of a sweat.

The elite stealers look pretty cool. Will definately use a few in PS games or Apoc where force org matters not but my elites look to be taken up by 2 lictors, probably 1 or 2 venomthropes and probably 3 hive guard.

Oh...Venomthropes "spore field" affects all units. Maybe the translation was fishy, but I did not see anything that prohibits monstrous creatures.

Greets
Schepp himself

Schepp himself wrote:And biomorphs are pretty much gone.

First they took away my Daemonic Gifts. Then they stole my Doctrines. Now they're taking our Biomorphs.

Soon they'll be coming for my Daemonhosts and Archo-Flagellants.

But I like a Biomorph...