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CaptKaruthors wrote:What can man do against such reckless hate?

Alpharius wrote:Me?

I've always hated Tyranids.

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us but because they are incapable of good, honest, human hatred.

. Ahhh...Good quotes Alpharius. Appropriate for the topic.

What to do? "What I cannot crush with words, I will crush with the tanks of the Imperial Guard!"

Carnifex is 160. Bio blasma is NOT given (short range plasma cannon)! Can buy it for 20 points. Big venomcannon is 25 points, Strangler I think is 20 points. Can only take one big-one. Has scything talon set as standard, can change each for a small gun! So you carnifexes are not invalid. Cost 10-15 points each, though!

If they can only have one "big one" what does that do to Gunfexes.

Overall I like the changes to the Carnifex. The more I hear the more it looks worth the points.

Schepp himself wrote:
Zoanthropes are indeed 60 points with synapse, warpfield (3++) and warp lighning (24" S5 AP3 blast or 18 "S10 AP1 assault 1, lance) and shadow of the warp.
1-3 in an elite brood, spore possible.

Greets
Schepp himself

Can you confirm the BS 4 rumor for Zoes?

It means breaking guns off or simply calling one of the other guns a "smaller version". Could cause problems with wysiwyg.

I'd like to think 'Seer will get rumor threads back Schepp but at this point in time I can see the thread reopening (#5 no doubt), rumors being newly updated and then the first 8 posts being "OMG NIDS SUCK, WHINE, WHINE, WHATEVER AM I GONNA DO NOW, I MIGHT AS WELL GO /WRISTS BECAUSE I'M SO EMO".

It might be tolerated here to a point but so far you lot have actually been more civil about whining than over at 'Seer (and typically it's the other way around). LOL. The mods do give warnings but they will only spend so much time deleting posts before they just get tired of chasing the rabbit and close the hole. Mods have better things to do then spend 3-4 hours a day deleting posts even after repeated warnings to not break forum rules.

Hmm, still not sure if Lictor is worth even 65. Sure it has a shooting attack and it dropped 15 and apparently gained a wound but unless taken in broods of 2 or 3 that 65 points will still be wasted.

wyomingfox wrote:

Schepp himself wrote:
Zoanthropes are indeed 60 points with synapse, warpfield (3++) and warp lighning (24" S5 AP3 blast or 18 "S10 AP1 assault 1, lance) and shadow of the warp.
1-3 in an elite brood, spore possible.

Greets
Schepp himself

Can you confirm the BS 4 rumor for Zoes?

Confirmed.

Greets
Schepp himself

Thanks!

Mahu wrote:

Carnifex is 160. Bio blasma is NOT given (short range plasma cannon)! Can buy it for 20 points. Big venomcannon is 25 points, Strangler I think is 20 points. Can only take one big-one. Has scything talon set as standard, can change each for a small gun! So you carnifexes are not invalid. Cost 10-15 points each, though!

If they can only have one "big one" what does that do to Gunfexes.

Overall I like the changes to the Carnifex. The more I hear the more it looks worth the points.

I'm not 100% on what are the smaller ones exactly. As I said earlier, tyranid guns are not my cup of tea and I'm easily confused by them. Especially when you throw in some german. Biozidkanone and Stachelwürger don't mean that much to me. I had to look at the pictures like a jerviskid to identify them (Maybe they ain't that bad after all...)

Greets
Schepp himself

Hey Schepp!

I got a little question about spinefists. They are rumored as being S4 on the 'net but my local redshirts keep telling me it's S3. What did you hear on that one?

Thanks for the info schepp. Nice ot hear flesh hooks are rending.

Do you recall whether Instictive Behavior is found on most units, like say carnifexes? Curious since their leadership dropped to 6 and biovores lost brood telepathy.

So bio plasma is not standard on a fex? I have heard both bundled and not bundled in about a 50/50 split. I wonder if that is due to what page they are looking at? I can see bioplasma being detailed in the rules/fluff page on the carnifex and then people assuming it is standard perhaps?

Any event without plasma standard I think the carnifex is very overpriced (with it it was marginally so to balanced). Not ohh my gawd sky is falling overpriced, but overpriced none-the-less. And in no way is a 12" plasma cannon shot worth 20 points, even if it opens up a hybrid shooty/cc build. Am I alone in thinking that?

Schepp himself wrote:Especially when you throw in some german. Biozidkanone and Stachelwürger don't mean that much to me. I had to look at the pictures like a jerviskid to identify them (Maybe they ain't that bad after all...)

oh yeah, i feel with you...


@winterman:
I am almost sure that carnifexes do have instinctive behaviour (the CC type).

HoverBoy wrote:

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Thanks, but it still doesn't have the info I am looking for. I heard ravenors are going to be like lictors and deploy in groups of 1-3, but I wanted to confirm it. Also, I wanted to see what kind of unit sizes that Warriors get. I also was looking for some sort of artwork or ideas as to what I need to do to make a warrior an Alpha.

Just make an armless warrior and have green stuff handy thats what i'm doing, for other models too.

Currently my warriors are all armless with magnets being placed in those sockets... I need to get a bunch of GS going so I can redo the arms to work with them.

Allready making up a few boneswords (warriors will form my troops)
So they wont be a problem.

If you need a way of making a nid model hold them:

1: Make the bonesword (plasticard works wonders)
2: Use the warriors talon arm, remove the blade as close to the hand as possible.
3: Add 2-3 gaunt carapace plates where the blade used to be (makes an armoured hand guard and hides the cut)
4: Add the bonesword to the top.
5: Attatch the bio-feeder tube from the hand (bottom of it) to the top of the arm / elbow (nids have plenty of these on weapon arms, hack em off and use em)

Ill just have painted up warriors without arms until the dex comes out
If i get bored ill paint up all the arm options, but i rather wait.




Schepp: Thanks again mate for more info
If you do get another look, could you try and drag up some info on alpha warriors please?
Hoping to know thier upgrade options / movement so i can start some sketches.
Thanks

winterman wrote:Am I alone in thinking that?

Nope. Zoanthropes look even better with synapse... and the carnifex that I was really trying to champion are failing me.

It's not so much that they are horrifically overcosted. A really choppy 185 point venom cannon battery could be palatable if it wasn't sitting right next to a 175 point mawloc in the FOC. I need to hold the book in my hands and even play some games with different lists... but outside of really making the fex shooty and having that somehow be more useful than the mawloc arrival template or the trygon bio-electricity... it just seems like second fiddle to the slightly more expensive 'gons

Schepp, you are amazing, thanks so much.

If you do want to post some points costs, a suggestion:

Post things like "cost same as razorback with assault cannons" or "cost same as 3 vanilla speeders" and for biomorphs, stuff like "cost same as tac squad lascannon" and the like. That way we can all get the numbers and no one gets in trouble

(This idea is stolen completely from the warpshadow guy.)

EDIT: 100th post, w00t me (I feel a little dirty, but in a good way...)

schepp, thanks a lot for those rumors, can't wait to get my hands on the codex.

@Shep. I agree. Unless we are missing some rules Carnifex seem the weaker cousins.

Dakka-Fex have gone from 114 to ~180 and Sniper-fex are now invalid. Everything I am reading is making the Tervigon sound better and better as the new Dakka-fex.

Has anyone heard any wind at all about the point cost for the drop pod spore? That's about the main things that's keeping me back from toying around with skeletons of army lists. There's a big difference between it being (say) drop pod cost vs. chimera cost.

As a side note, does anyone know exactly how the Mawloc places its blast marker? Does it do it anywhere, a la Swooping Hawks grenade packs? Does it have a range, or does it only do it if it scatters into something (I had heard this initially as a rumor).

Dakkafex I read was 200(!). Gains 2 cc attacks and 4 more shots but loses living ammo (so about .5 more MEq avg kills via shooting and more chances to shake vehicles) -- dunno if that is worth 80+ point increase. Boomfex is confirmed 180 in the new WD, still unsure if the strangler got rending though. When bioplasma was rumored to be bundled that sounded like a pretty solid build -- now I dunno.

The only thing keeping me interested in the carnifexes are the yet undisclosed options, spore pods and the possibility that scytal rerolls work against vehicles (well that and the fact I have 3 magnetized fexes and 2 soon to be illegal gunfexes I'd like to use for more then just tervigon proxies).

I just used shooty Zoeys in a game last night for the first time in a long time. As is, they performed pretty well, but the KP issue cost me. So with the KP fix and these buffs, I think they'll be pretty darn good. To be honest, I found myself focusing fire from all three Zoeys on single targets much of the time anyway. So I don't see them being in a brood as much of a problem.

Regarding spore pods, I heard they cost 8 (current) spinegaunts. The Mawloc's blast is placed at its deep strike arrival point.

Oh, and I read in WD that Hive Fleet Gorgon is in the codex! Edit: Nothing to do with my army, of course. And now I'll have random people saying my color scheme is "wrong".

winterman wrote:So bio plasma is not standard on a fex? I have heard both bundled and not bundled in about a 50/50 split. I wonder if that is due to what page they are looking at? I can see bioplasma being detailed in the rules/fluff page on the carnifex and then people assuming it is standard perhaps?

Well remember how both 3rd and 4rth edition nid codices have mini stats and profiles for specific loadouts for the mutable species like harpies, spine guants, ect located at the bottom of the page, underneath the main entry. Maybe the 5th edition codex also has secondary profiles underneath the major heading and that is what is messing people up

winterman wrote:Any event without plasma standard I think the carnifex is very overpriced (with it it was marginally so to balanced). Not ohh my gawd sky is falling overpriced, but overpriced none-the-less. And in no way is a 12" plasma cannon shot worth 20 points, even if it opens up a hybrid shooty/cc build. Am I alone in thinking that?

Well, I think the general feedback from alot of previous posters were that even with Plasma buff, the carnifex seamed somewhat over-priced when compared to 4rth edition fexes.

The closest comparison right now is the ninja fex which for 113 points or so had 4 attacks and an effective WS 5 (adrenal gland and toxic miasma lowering opponents WS by 1). For a 160 points you get a ninjafex with a) Prefered Enemy b) +2 Init on the charge c) -1 effective WS. Definately better, but not a 47 points better IMO. Two of the buffs seam kinda mehh on a fex: furious charge because the likelhood of a non-winged, non-fleet MC getting the charge doesn't seem that likely, and toxic sacs because you will already be wounding on a 2+, making re-rolls not that powerfull.

Too be honest, I just have never been in love with a walking CC fex (just me, YMMV). Now, you can give them spore pod but at 200 points base, you are probabaly better off with a Trygon/Mawloc (from a CC standpoint that is).

That said, we don't have alot of good info on gun options and maybe this will be the redeeming factor for the fexes. But with hive guard and zoes filling out the anti-mech role effectively, I question the future of the gunfex.

I am actually now really curious as to whether you can drop 3 Zoanthropes in one pod or if its one pod.

Also, the statline I've seen for the pod has it havign a 6 shot ST6 - weapon.

The other thing I am excited about is the Gaunt MC guy the Tervigon having a monstrous troop choice that can spit out additional troops is crazy.


The thing I am most excited about though is the Deathstalker lictor; I really really hope he is the super lictor of 2nd editon.

By all accounts he is Rending on a 5+ as well as being able to have hit and run and reappear etc..

Now that is something I look forward to know more about

@wyomingfox. I am in the camp of the cheap fexes were undercosted, so 47 more points for super preferred enemy (PE, miasma and WS has no affect on vehicles, new scytals appear to), boost to I on charge and a decent shooting attack that made sense on a cc fex (with a BS boost to boot) seemed fine by me. Maybe slightly overcosted but not worth the wailing done on warseer.

Mostly cause then in a pod the carni is like a psuedo ironclad. Comes in, does some shooting (maybe supplemented by the pod), uses the pod to block or obscure LOS and influences your opponent from then on (using the pod to your advantage is something the trygon/mawloc doesn't get). Now the cost of such a thing just went up atleast 10 points for meh shooting to 20-40 for worthwhile shooting. But I am holding out for info on other biomorphs or weaponry or possibly spore pod upgrades.

wyomingfox wrote:Well, I think the general feedback from alot of previous posters were that even with Plasma buff, the carnifex seamed somewhat over-priced when compared to 4rth edition fexes.

Not compared to the most recently nerfed & upcosted Eldar Wraithlords, they're not...

And besides, those dakkafexes were probably undercosted if you asked any non-Nid players.

The Mawloc looks like a repeating S6 orbital strike with wounds to me. The Carnifex is definitely more killy in CC and a better tankbuster with better shooting options. However, the Trygon looks like an even better tankbuster except perhaps against the heaviest tanks, and you know some players will figure out how to get a lot of mileage out of Mawlocs and their mobility.

The back plate options for the Carnifex should be interesting. I assume one is some kind of spinefist variant. I wonder what the spore cysts will be? If they're offensive grenades, that'd be an interesting option and fill a need. There could also be rules for thornback or tail equipment.

It does seem that there's a danger here that the role of the Carnifex has narrowed greatly in among all these MC options. Maybe it's not unlike some of the Russ variants in the IG codex by the same author. Although I agree with winterman that pods might be what unlocks the Carnifex's value.

This sure is shaping up to be an interesting codex

@ John,

True, but this is 5th edition. Where most things got cheaper and anything that once hurt mech, or lacked mech, got less effective.

I am sure if you ask any non SM player, 40 point TH/SS termies are undercosted. If you ask any non-deamon player, 40 point blood crushers are undercosted. Any non ork player and... well, I am sure they will point at something.

As for ninjafexes, I din't see them as undercosted as I didn't see them as being effective at what they were suppose to do. Something that woddled across the board and was usually avoided by anything it could hurt.

5th edition made gunfexes marginal in thier chosen roll as antimech.

And Dakkafexes...yeah they were a good deal


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shep wrote:Zoanthropes look even better with synapse...

Synapse? Schepp said Shadow in the Warp. I don't think he mentioned synapse...Geez they seam to be getting everything


Automatically Appended Next Post:

winterman wrote:Mostly cause then in a pod the carni is like a psuedo ironclad. Comes in, does some shooting (maybe supplemented by the pod), uses the pod to block or obscure LOS and influences your opponent from then on (using the pod to your advantage is something the trygon/mawloc doesn't get). Now the cost of such a thing just went up atleast 10 points for meh shooting to 20-40 for worthwhile shooting. But I am holding out for info on other biomorphs or weaponry or possibly spore pod upgrades.

Good points winterman. It will be interesting to digest all of the options that will be available, plus the added synergy that may come about. As for warseer, I havn't been to the site so I really can't comment on thier critiques.

wyomingfox wrote:Synapse? Schepp said Shadow in the Warp. I don't think he mentioned synapse...Geez they seam to be getting everything

Schepp himself wrote:Zoanthropes are indeed 60 points with synapse, warpfield (3++) and warp lighning (24" S5 AP3 blast or 18 "S10 AP1 assault 1, lance) and shadow of the warp.
1-3 in an elite brood, spore possible.

A STEAL at 60 points

I still think its hive guard/hive guard/zoanthrope. Primarily based on runes of warding and hoods/runes shutting down too much of your anti-transport. But for value, right now, hive guard and zoeys are looking like the two best units in the book so far... which is a real shame since they share a slot

I could see 'fexes being big in over 2k, non-Apoc. Obviously won't know points costs for a while but the advantage 'fex has over trygon/mawloc is that you max out at 3 (barring apoc and ps defenders) so if you are really hard pressed to get your army up to 2500 (and with cheaper gants/horms/stealers and cheaper gargoyles a mixed army at over 2k will probably need some fexes just to fill points.

Not to mention 'fexes, while being twice as much, benefit from crap tons of firepower. The trygon/mawloc appear to be cc oriented, the tyrannofex will be either overcosted/overhyped/or just something not everyone wants to take.

3 dakkafexes in the new codex might way in at around the 700pt mark but if in a brood together that is 12 T6 wounds, that while falling to plasma and melta, is still a reasonable assault threat and will pump out 36 twin liked S6 shots per turn. Sure no reroll for wounds but mathhammer says that brood will force 22 wounds on average against MEQ, even termies have to worry about making 22 armor saves.

I don't see the Trygon/Mawloc being no brainers or Tyrranofex being a no brainer honestly. I intend to take a Trygon/Mawloc for the models and still intend to field my 2 carnifi in large enough games (between 2k and 2500) just because I like the models.

It might be suboptimal but I also feel that 2 dakkafexes will mess up a lot of units, and if it's that big of a concern keep a venomthrope near by and get the advantage of 5+ invul and having a HUGE upper hand if those carnis should get assaulted.

Now that I think about it like that, it sounds like a reasonable use of points. Have the Dakkafexes go around and blast units, whittling them down, then swarm them with Hormagaunts and finish them off. I would definitely have a couple of Venomthropes close by, one for the Carnifexes and one for the Hormagaunts. Of course, that's just me, I tend to think more about unit synergy than the rather dodgy mathhammery goodness of individual units.

Shep wrote:A STEAL at 60 points

I still think its hive guard/hive guard/zoanthrope. Primarily based on runes of warding and hoods/runes shutting down too much of your anti-transport. But for value, right now, hive guard and zoeys are looking like the two best units in the book so far... which is a real shame since they share a slot

But that is why we have Apocalypse and Planet Strike


Automatically Appended Next Post:

warpcrafter wrote:I would definitely have a couple of Venomthropes close by, one for the Carnifexes and one for the Hormagaunts.

I personally am not holding my breath as far as the venomthrope giving MC cover saves. That is because like vehicles, MC must be 50% obscured in order to benefit from cover. So unless they address that issue in the rule, I don't think it will work.

warpcrafter wrote:Now that I think about it like that, it sounds like a reasonable use of points. Have the Dakkafexes go around and blast units, whittling them down, then swarm them with Hormagaunts and finish them off. I would definitely have a couple of Venomthropes close by, one for the Carnifexes and one for the Hormagaunts. Of course, that's just me, I tend to think more about unit synergy than the rather dodgy mathhammery goodness of individual units.

That's not a bad idea, but I wouldn't get more than 1 venomthrope. They are an elite choice and limit taking Zoanthropes and the sexy new Hive guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wyomingfox wrote:

I personally am not holding my breath as far as the venomthrope giving MC cover saves. That is because like vehicles, MC must be 50% obscured in order to benefit from cover. So unless they address that issue in the rule, I don't think it will work.

I thought the venom save was similar to a kustom force field? Which means that vehicles and possibly MC count as obscured.