Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Looking at some of the latest BTP videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbzX3bYE97c

This is called a Random Snippet. I linked to it, instead of some of the other videos, because it does not start with Shawn saying "Hey Hey Blue Table Fans!" Also, the point I am about to make applies to every BTP video.

Just focusing on the paint jobs for the models that appear in this video. It is just me, or do all the models have about the same skin tone? Some are a little greener than others, some are a little browner than others. But they are all about the same tone and lack pronounced shadows / highlights. There's nothing there that pops out at you, there may be some details but you don't really notice them.

Compare those models to the one in this video from Lester Bursley:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYFTgeNhCg

In the space about about an hour, he is putting a literally awesome paint job on some models. He is explaining his process as he goes along and does not need to tell me his model is "over the top" or "outstanding" to get me to like it. I genuinely feel like I learned something from having watched his video, and it left me wanting to do more models. He has a Patreon page and it feels like something I genuinely want to give money to instead of a cash grab.

Beyond that, everything he says screams integrity and respect for the community in which he operates. He's talking about other artists, different styles, different tools for the job, etc in his videos.

All this discussion about BTP's business practices has just brought me back to the fact that there are good, talented artists out there who actually do care about doing a great job for people. There is a WORLD of difference in quality between what he's done in this video and what you will find in any BTP video. While Lester speeds up his videos quite a bit, you can actually see all stages of the production process even on complex models. There is a ton of variation between each one that he does - very few of them are similar except for technique, and you can see it doesn't take all that long for him to get these kinds of results.

So the question is: why do people people like tenebre fall for companies like BTP when there are guys like Lester out there? Is it the sales job?

 techsoldaten wrote:
Looking at some of the latest BTP videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbzX3bYE97c

This is called a Random Snippet. I linked to it, instead of some of the other videos, because it does not start with Shawn saying "Hey Hey Blue Table Fans!" Also, the point I am about to make applies to every BTP video.

Just focusing on the paint jobs for the models that appear in this video. It is just me, or do all the models have about the same skin tone? Some are a little greener than others, some are a little browner than others. But they are all about the same tone and lack pronounced shadows / highlights. There's nothing there that pops out at you, there may be some details but you don't really notice them.

Compare those models to the one in this video from Lester Bursley:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYFTgeNhCg

In the space about about an hour, he is putting a literally awesome paint job on some models. He is explaining his process as he goes along and does not need to tell me his model is "over the top" or "outstanding" to get me to like it. I genuinely feel like I learned something from having watched his video, and it left me wanting to do more models. He has a Patreon page and it feels like something I genuinely want to give money to instead of a cash grab.

Beyond that, everything he says screams integrity and respect for the community in which he operates. He's talking about other artists, different styles, different tools for the job, etc in his videos.

All this discussion about BTP's business practices has just brought me back to the fact that there are good, talented artists out there who actually do care about doing a great job for people. There is a WORLD of difference in quality between what he's done in this video and what you will find in any BTP video. While Lester speeds up his videos quite a bit, you can actually see all stages of the production process even on complex models. There is a ton of variation between each one that he does - very few of them are similar except for technique, and you can see it doesn't take all that long for him to get these kinds of results.

So the question is: why do people people like tenebre fall for companies like BTP when there are guys like Lester out there? Is it the sales job?

Marketing plan and simple.

 techsoldaten wrote:
So the question is: why do people people like tenebre fall for companies like BTP when there are guys like Lester out there? Is it the sales job?

How much does Lester charge for a commission? He's not taking any commissions according to his website, but how much would he have charged to paint like that? I'm guessing there's a good chance it's more than BTP. I'm guessing that's why people are drawn to BTP.

I don't really see the point in comparing different commission artists unless they are actually similarly priced and in similar regions (not much point comparing someone who charges $50 a model to someone who charged $5 a model, also not really fair to compare someone in the US who charges $5 to someone in India who charges $5).
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Reality-Torrent wrote:
Is it just me or does the level level 3 look ALLOT better and has ALLOT more detail then OP's level 6s?

It isn't just you. It was my immediate thought upon seeing them, too. I also noticed that I couldn't see any real improvements in quality as the "levels" went up.

One feature I've always noticed about BTP is they don't really offer sample images that are high enough quality to show the quality of the miniature itself. Other than the dreadnought, you can't actually see the models well enough to know how good the blending might be on them, maybe they are a lot better than level 3, who knows. An "ok" model and an "omg that's awesome" model doesn't look much different when they're only 110 pixels tall.

If I were to ever commission BTP I'd be first asking for higher resolution and better quality images to compare levels, if they couldn't supply them I wouldn't go with them.

Then there are things like one level stating that the models will be "clean", and then a higher level stating that the models with have "no slops"... so, a model can have slops yet also be considered clean? What?

It's all just advertising talk. I don't blame BTP for not using clear language in advertising, people rarely do. It's up to the customer to ask "so what do you mean by clean vs no slops?", and then if they fail to deliver on that, that's where the blame lies. I see it much the same as a restaurant advertising "Our burgers are delicious!" as if it actually means something.

The last time Lester took a commission it was not much more then what BTP charges. I think he is at a point where the project has to interests him and someone offers him enough money to do it. I would suggest getting his Patreon, I have learned alot from that dude.

AwesomePaintJob is great. BuyPainted also is amazing, but has since moved to a members only channel, which I wish him all the best with. Den of Imagination gives me "studio" fixes and inspiration these days though. Tremendous work coming from that bunch.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
How much does Lester charge for a commission?

His prices are comparable with BTP's higher levels.

I found out about him originally from someone who had him do a commission. The model looked better in person than the ones online, I had never seen anything quite that good before. When I asked how much it cost, he told me a number for each model which was affordable for most people.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
He's not taking any commissions according to his website, but how much would he have charged to paint like that? I'm guessing there's a good chance it's more than BTP. I'm guessing that's why people are drawn to BTP.

I don't get the sense his website gets updated very often. Sometimes it's best not to take artists literally.

You call him and tell him you have $10k to paint miniatures, I bet he's going to respond.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I don't really see the point in comparing different commission artists unless they are actually similarly priced and in similar regions (not much point comparing someone who charges $50 a model to someone who charged $5 a model, also not really fair to compare someone in the US who charges $5 to someone in India who charges $5).

In response: do you think tenebre would have been happier with 80% of his army painted to Lester's standard than 100% painted to BTPs?

Totally fair to compare the relative competencies of an artist. Price is completely something different, it's a matter of where you see the value.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karnophage wrote:
The last time Lester took a commission it was not much more then what BTP charges. I think he is at a point where the project has to interests him and someone offers him enough money to do it. I would suggest getting his Patreon, I have learned alot from that dude.

Good point. Full disclosure: I give him money each month to make videos. You can too:

http://www.patreon.com/awesomepaintjob


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FatherKnowsBest wrote:
AwesomePaintJob is great. BuyPainted also is amazing, but has since moved to a members only channel, which I wish him all the best with. Den of Imagination gives me "studio" fixes and inspiration these days though. Tremendous work coming from that bunch.

Yep yep yep. The other guy whose work makes me happy to see is James Wappel.

http://wappellious.blogspot.com/

He just kills it again and again and again. His blog is informative and leaves you guessing how he did certain things, it always leaves me with a sense of mystery.

This is probably the level BTP wants you to think they are providing when you place an order with them.

 techsoldaten wrote:
When I asked how much it cost, he told me a number for each model which was affordable for most people.

Which was?

You call him and tell him you have $10k to paint miniatures, I bet he's going to respond.

But I'd be lying, so I'm not going to do that

In response: do you think tenebre would have been happier with 80% of his army painted to Lester's standard than 100% painted to BTPs?

I think we've already established that Tenebre didn't get the quality that BTP advertised... that's why he's taking action. Until you can put a figure on Lester's models the comparison is largely moot. Are they the price of a level 4? Are they a level 6? Are they priced higher?

Totally fair to compare the relative competencies of an artist. Price is completely something different, it's a matter of where you see the value.

But how do you rank the competency of an artist in the context of painting wargaming miniatures? In the context of an actual wargaming army (opposed to a single squad or display pieces) I tend to rank the competency of an artist by what they produce in a certain amount of time. Lester Burley's models, to me, look like solid table top quality miniatures, from BTP's advertising maybe a level 5 or 6, hard to say because BTP don't provide good pictures. They're both a mile off what winterdyne produces.

I'm guessing the videos Lester produces aren't his best work either, I've watched a few where he's drilled barrels off centre, there's "slops" where lines that should be sharp aren't sharp, the transitions are rough, the washes aren't cleaned up.

Given we don't have the best possible thing the artist can create to compare, you can't really judge relative competency based off that. There's no point having a race where one person walks, one person jogs and another person runs. There needs to be context, there needs to be something that constrains the playing field so a comparison can be made. If that constraint is not "produce the best looking model you possibly can" (which is not a useful measure for commission painters anyway) then the next useful constraint is "produce the best looking model you can within X amount of time and/or with X amount of dollars".

Now... one comparison where BTP have fallen flat on their face is that they've produced a commission for Tenebre that's not even to their own advertised standards (which they've admitted) and not to the contract (which they appear to be dodging) and they have not satisfactorily dealt with their error. I'm not denying any of that... I'm just pointing out that there are commission artists who produce low quality models quickly to remain affordable and commission painters who produce high quality models but at a price and time which is impractical to most customers. Comparing the two is mostly academic. The fact Lester doesn't even take commissions any more further abstracts the usefulness, you might as well pick random images off the internet and say "well this person can paint better than that person".

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Which was?

I feel like it's wrong to post information like that online and won't be doing it.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But I'd be lying, so I'm not going to do that

Har Har Har

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think we've already established that Tenebre didn't get the quality that BTP advertised... that's why he's taking action. Until you can put a figure on Lester's models the comparison is largely moot. Are they the price of a level 4? Are they a level 6? Are they priced higher?

I have provided a relative sense of pricing appropriate for most people to make a decision. You want a specific price, you call him.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But how do you rank the competency of an artist in the context of painting wargaming miniatures?

I don't think anyone is looking to rank every commission service out there, nor is that really very useful. This isn't an attempt to say whose number one.

I would say Lester's videos give me a tremendous sense of confidence and I would not hesitate to spend money with him were I in need of such a service.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
In the context of an actual wargaming army (opposed to a single squad or display pieces) I tend to rank the competency of an artist by what they produce in a certain amount of time. Lester Burley's models, to me, look like solid table top quality miniatures, from BTP's advertising maybe a level 5 or 6, hard to say because BTP don't provide good pictures. They're both a mile off what winterdyne produces.

That's your personal preference and completely misses the point I made. This is not an ad for Lester Bursley, the only thing I asked was why do people fall for companies that don't do a good job? This is like in high school, wondering about why the hot girls always fall for the dudes the beat them up. It's not easy to make sense of the appeal ruin and suffering have for some people.

winterdyne is indeed very talented and the only reason I did not mention him is the fact his work been mentioned elsewhere in the thread.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm guessing the videos Lester produces aren't his best work either, I've watched a few where he's drilled barrels off centre, there's "slops" where lines that should be sharp aren't sharp, the transitions are rough, the washes aren't cleaned up.

Again, complaining about Lester Bursley's work is missing the point. All I did was describe my experience watching his videos and seeing his model. You are simply criticizing my taste, which is very bad by my own admission.

Substitute any artist who inspires you.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Given we don't have the best possible thing the artist can create to compare, you can't really judge relative competency based off that. There's no point having a race where one person walks, one person jogs and another person runs. There needs to be context, there needs to be something that constrains the playing field so a comparison can be made. If that constraint is not "produce the best looking model you possibly can" (which is not a useful measure for commission painters anyway) then the next useful constraint is "produce the best looking model you can within X amount of time and/or with X amount of dollars".

The level of research and detail you require before offering an opinion on a relatively benign question is remarkable. The fact your response is both reductive and a complete non-sequitur makes this analysis all the more impressive.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Now... one comparison where BTP have fallen flat on their face is that they've produced a commission for Tenebre that's not even to their own advertised standards (which they've admitted) and not to the contract (which they appear to be dodging) and they have not satisfactorily dealt with their error. I'm not denying any of that... I'm just pointing out that there are commission artists who produce low quality models quickly to remain affordable and commission painters who produce high quality models but at a price and time which is impractical to most customers. Comparing the two is mostly academic. The fact Lester doesn't even take commissions any more further abstracts the usefulness, you might as well pick random images off the internet and say "well this person can paint better than that person".

I get the point you are trying to make but consider it pedantic. The rhetorical question I posted was whether tenebre would have been happier with 80% of his army painted to Lester's standards or 100% of it painted to BTPs standards. The point is, as in high school, some services treat you right and other's don't. I doubt he sought out problems like this.

 techsoldaten wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Which was?

I feel like it's wrong to post information like that online and won't be doing it.

I wasn't aware his pricing was private.

This is not an ad for Lester Bursley, the only thing I asked was why do people fall for companies that don't do a good job?

Sorry I thought that was obvious. Pricing, advertising, lack of poor reviews, not understanding the time (and thus money) that goes in to a commission, not having a critical eye to see that their pictures are too far away to actually show level of detail, they have a relatively large online presence which tends to make people feel less like they're going to be screwed over. I think that covers the major points but there may be more.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The point is, as in high school, some services treat you right and other's don't. I doubt he sought out problems like this.

Well then lets confine the discussion to the problems he actually has of not getting the product agreed to and the quality advertised.

You know, after the link was posted to the paint level photos on the BTP site I realized that all of the work in the photos looked better than what I remembered seeing on BTPs Flickr feed. So I decided to take a look more closely at the feed.

After looking at literally hundreds of photos I could not find one project that seemed to be of the same painting quality as any of the photos from the listing of their painting levels (although I just went back and checked and some of the recent photos come close).

Seriously, though. Check it out.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/

 Dullspork wrote:
You know, after the link was posted to the paint level photos on the BTP site I realized that all of the work in the photos looked better than what I remembered seeing on BTPs Flickr feed. So I decided to take a look more closely at the feed.

After looking at literally hundreds of photos I could not find one project that seemed to be of the same painting quality as any of the photos from the listing of their painting levels (although I just went back and checked and some of the recent photos come close).

Seriously, though. Check it out.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/

Wow. I can paint about as good as that, and I don't consider myself an especially good painter.

They are shocking. BTP are just ripping people off. But then again, there's a store on ebay that sells painted miniatures, and they're terribly painted most of the time, for a big mark up.

It's going to make me do something stupid one day, like quit work and blow my savings trying to sell the starter armies from DV painted

 Davylove21 wrote:
They are shocking. BTP are just ripping people off. But then again, there's a store on ebay that sells painted miniatures, and they're terribly painted most of the time, for a big mark up.

It's going to make me do something stupid one day, like quit work and blow my savings trying to sell the starter armies from DV painted

I sold magnetized Rhinos on eBay for a while, just because I loved building them and found it easy to do. The markup was about 135%.

Not something I could have made a living at, but paid for lots of other good stuff for my army.

 Davylove21 wrote:
They are shocking. BTP are just ripping people off. But then again, there's a store on ebay that sells painted miniatures, and they're terribly painted most of the time, for a big mark up.

It's going to make me do something stupid one day, like quit work and blow my savings trying to sell the starter armies from DV painted

You don't need to quit your day job. Just paint some over the holidays, and put it on eBay. You can ease into it and see if it's worth it.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Dullspork wrote:
You know, after the link was posted to the paint level photos on the BTP site I realized that all of the work in the photos looked better than what I remembered seeing on BTPs Flickr feed. So I decided to take a look more closely at the feed.

After looking at literally hundreds of photos I could not find one project that seemed to be of the same painting quality as any of the photos from the listing of their painting levels (although I just went back and checked and some of the recent photos come close).

Seriously, though. Check it out.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/

Wow. I can paint about as good as that, and I don't consider myself an especially good painter.

You gotta love the checkerboard pattern on the Wrightknight's shoulder pads where the checks don't even meet corner to corner and are of inconsistent sizes.

It's also interesting that some of the best work is on the Super Dungeon Explore models. I guess the painting style of the artist is more appropriate to that genre?

Sometimes I wonder why I bother. People actually pay for that?

winterdyne wrote:
Sometimes I wonder why I bother. People actually pay for that?

There is a sucker born every minute.

But there is actually honor in doing your job well and professionally.

Its about as good as I paint, and I charge very little lol
But my specialty was always mass of troops (like I paint 200 Clanrats far easier then a squad of 10 Grey Knights)
You can't cross once you've perfected your technique in one to the other

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
Its about as good as I paint, and I charge very little lol
But my specialty was always mass of troops (like I paint 200 Clanrats far easier then a squad of 10 Grey Knights)
You can't cross once you've perfected your technique in one to the other

What it really comes down to is most painting studios really only have two levels. Table Top and show case.

BTP just doesn't have the talent pool to do show case, and really their upper level stuff is what most studios would call table top.

In trenable's case he ended up getting sub table top quality when he was paying for show case. Even their lower level stuff on that chart looks better then what he got.

BTP'S levels are kinda a joke.

My friend got a storm raven done by BTP as a surprise gift from a none table top friend. He get's upset when ever you point out the paint job is horrible. "Because it's a gift".

If he would let me take pics of it I would show you. Grey plastic and resin is showing threw the white primer is was sprayed with once on some corners. The bottom of it is unpainted.

(It's a white scars stormraven)

The bottom of a fething FLYER is unpainted?!!

Dear God they suck.

While doing the basecoat on my Stormraven and I noticed I had missed priming under the swiveling rotors. I had to stop basecoating fix it. And I don't even consider myself an above par painter.

Yet these guys can charge money for a Stormraven that's only mostly painted? That's not acceptable even under their stupid new "0" category.

What's going on with all those triple based infinity models? https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/15813101955/

Do you think someone requested them that way?
Is it a common thing to have a base insert glued onto a base that's glued onto a base?

I have to admit that despite a few rough edges I'd be happy enough fielding most of the stuff on the flikr page, but then my painting is pretty basic (prime, base, wash, highlight, drybrush, no freehand), and even I think ten's chaos dwarfs were very much unfinished.

Edit: it'd be nice to quote a level on the pictures so I can tell if the wild quality difference is due to artists or levels.

Herzlos wrote:
What's going on with all those triple based infinity models? https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/15813101955/

The only thing I can think of when I see that is a secret weapon base glued to the top of a regular base, but even the stuff I've gotten in their bags of crap (cheap rejects) have been better quality than that by a wide margin.

I *can* tell you its not at all common in infinity, and at a guess I'd say someone has paid for senic bases and that's what BTP made themselves and delivered.

Those base toppers and those paint jobs. It's hurting my eyes. I hope the customer asked for shoddy work because that's what they are getting.

Herzlos wrote:
What's going on with all those triple based infinity models? https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/15813101955/

Do you think someone requested them that way?
Is it a common thing to have a base insert glued onto a base that's glued onto a base?

I have to admit that despite a few rough edges I'd be happy enough fielding most of the stuff on the flikr page, but then my painting is pretty basic (prime, base, wash, highlight, drybrush, no freehand), and even I think ten's chaos dwarfs were very much unfinished.

Edit: it'd be nice to quote a level on the pictures so I can tell if the wild quality difference is due to artists or levels.

It's painful to see incredible Infinity sculpts so abused.

Please don't show it to Angel Giraldez x/

Sorry guys. I made a mistake when I made that post. I got named mixes up. It wasn't a storm raven that was mispainted.


It was a storm egale!
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine_Aircraft/STORM_EAGLE.html

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
The bottom of a fething FLYER is unpainted?!!

Dear God they suck.

Yah the only paint that on the bottom of the storm raven was a spotty/thin bit of white primer that got on when doing the tops and sides. I think he has now went in and fixed it himself with some white paint. to atleast cover the bear resin.

But like I said. Since it was a gift from a friend, he refuses to say anything bad about it.


I don't know how much/what level he paied for, but since they guy who ordered it knew nothing about wargameing i feel Blue table painting took him for a ride since he wouldn't know any better then complain. They knew they had a client who knew nothing about gaming, and easily got really gak results approved by a guy who didn't know any better.

He knew the person always wanted a storm egal for his white scars army, and ordered one from forgeworld then went to a painting studio to try and get it painted to what he quoted was "highest standard". My friend who was given the storm raven has mentioned at times it's disappointing the state of the flyer. But trys his best to to say anything negative about it's paintjob paint job, due to the sentimental attachment involved in who and why the gift was given.

It's one of reasons I don't like BTP, because they botched a really important and expensive gift for that guy.
=/

 robam45 wrote:
While doing the basecoat on my Stormraven and I noticed I had missed priming under the swiveling rotors. I had to stop basecoating fix it. And I don't even consider myself an above par painter.

Yet these guys can charge money for a Stormraven that's only mostly painted? That's not acceptable even under their stupid new "0" category.

Even worse because it's a FW flier they botched.


edit:
also i forgot to mention. The also glued the fins on it backwards.


in this video you don't see the issues with the botton of the wings and hull. He's carefull not to show thows angles.

(excuse typos, my sleeping meds are kicking it, and wanted to post this before i head off for the night)

 YourWellPaintedArmyCom wrote:
Please don't show it to Angel Giraldez x/

What is really horrible to me us that BTP get to preview beautiful Infinity minis, painted by Angel with their grubby logo slapped all over the place because of their increasingly bizarre relationship with Corvus Belli.

Hey, to be fair we all have that one friend who we thought is okay even when he's a little bit quirky. And you discover too late that... he's really not okay and that quirkiness is more creepy than you initially thought.

 plastictrees wrote:

 YourWellPaintedArmyCom wrote:
Please don't show it to Angel Giraldez x/

What is really horrible to me us that BTP get to preview beautiful Infinity minis, painted by Angel with their grubby logo slapped all over the place because of their increasingly bizarre relationship with Corvus Belli.

It's cause of btp produce a lot of their minis so they need to have big discount on price per box (another money for btp) and CORVUS belli have free time in valhalla. I think there's nothing over that. And CB don't give a sheet what btp is doing with their minis it's just sales