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2010/02/28 01:27:34
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Albatross wrote:@whatwhat - I'm not getting into this with you. You are incorrect, though.
That's a good one. You're wrong, but I don't want to go into it. Brilliant.
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2010/02/28 01:29:56
Subject: Re:Celebrities you would like to punch
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Battleship Captain
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2010/02/28 01:38:00
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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@whatwhat - I could explain why you are wrong, if I thought you were doing anything other than trolling...
Oh well, here goes:
Most rock and roll drummers were lighter and jazzier before Ringo Starr, certainly in the UK. They also tended to use the orthodox-style grip, as opposed to the matched grip. Ringo played with a matched grip, mostly because he was left handed and he would often play on a right-handed set-up. This allowed him to hit harder than most other drummers. He also hit the bass-drum harder, and rather than decorating his parts with lots of fills, he just concentrated on playing the backbeat as hard as possible. This made the Beatles' music more danceable and 'insistent'. It definitely contributed to their success.
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 Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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2010/02/28 02:00:04
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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None of that is remarkable for a drummer. Ringo's style suited the band, by no way was he the only person who could have done that. And Ringo didn't play fills because he was crap at them.
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2010/02/28 02:08:12
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Dakka Veteran
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whatwhat wrote:None of that is remarkable for a drummer. Ringo's style suited the band, by no way was he the only person who could have done that. And Ringo didn't play fills because he was crap at them.
Yeah...and I can play the opening of "All Along The Watchtower." Jimi Hendrix is still a better guitar player than me because he was talented enough to do it first.
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In a Society in which there is no law, and in theory no compulsion, the only arbiter of behaviour is public opinion. But public opinion, because of the tremendous urge to conformity in gregarious animals, is less tolerant than any system of law. When human beings are governed by "thou shalt not", the individual can practise a certain amount of eccentricity: when they are supposedly governed by "love" or "reason", he is under continuous pressure to make him behave and think in exactly the same way as everyone else.
George Orwell is my hero.
Social Experiment: if you're pissed like me, copy and paste this into your sig, and add a number after it.
PISSED 8374982374983749873948234
Check out my band Man In A Shed |
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2010/02/28 02:10:49
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Well I think I know what you're getting at. Much like my point earlier..
whatwhat wrote:The sole reason he has become an influential drummer was because he was in The Beatles.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/02/28 02:11:24
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2010/02/28 02:14:05
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Dakka Veteran
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You are making a circular argument. He was influential because he was in the beatles who were popular because they were very creative and made lots of interesting decisions that produced great work, making them popular and influential.
There are lots of popular musicians that aren't influential at all. You actually have to do something unique first.
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In a Society in which there is no law, and in theory no compulsion, the only arbiter of behaviour is public opinion. But public opinion, because of the tremendous urge to conformity in gregarious animals, is less tolerant than any system of law. When human beings are governed by "thou shalt not", the individual can practise a certain amount of eccentricity: when they are supposedly governed by "love" or "reason", he is under continuous pressure to make him behave and think in exactly the same way as everyone else.
George Orwell is my hero.
Social Experiment: if you're pissed like me, copy and paste this into your sig, and add a number after it.
PISSED 8374982374983749873948234
Check out my band Man In A Shed |
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2010/02/28 02:15:10
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Well, in that case. I think your overestimating Ringo Starr's part in the creative decisions of The Beatles somehow. And even if he had had more of a role, that doesn't make him a great drummer.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/02/28 02:16:50
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2010/02/28 02:18:58
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Dakka Veteran
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whatwhat wrote:Well, in that case. I think your overestimating Ringo Starr's part in the creative decisions of The Beatles somehow. And even if he had had more of a role, that doesn't make him a great drummer.
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In a Society in which there is no law, and in theory no compulsion, the only arbiter of behaviour is public opinion. But public opinion, because of the tremendous urge to conformity in gregarious animals, is less tolerant than any system of law. When human beings are governed by "thou shalt not", the individual can practise a certain amount of eccentricity: when they are supposedly governed by "love" or "reason", he is under continuous pressure to make him behave and think in exactly the same way as everyone else.
George Orwell is my hero.
Social Experiment: if you're pissed like me, copy and paste this into your sig, and add a number after it.
PISSED 8374982374983749873948234
Check out my band Man In A Shed |
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2010/02/28 02:21:06
Subject: Re:Celebrities you would like to punch
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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That's great. You were one half of a constructive argument until that. Thanks for your input... 
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2010/02/28 02:25:19
Subject: Re:Celebrities you would like to punch
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Dakka Veteran
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whatwhat wrote:That's great. You were one half of a constructive argument until that. Thanks for your input...
Yes I was. Albatross was the second half.
Don't get me wrong, I have no stake in this, I'm just calling them as I see them. However, Albatross has made a compelling argument. You have not, and in that post you repeated non-constructive statements, more or less ignoring what had been said previously rather than responding to it.
Hence, double facepalm.
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In a Society in which there is no law, and in theory no compulsion, the only arbiter of behaviour is public opinion. But public opinion, because of the tremendous urge to conformity in gregarious animals, is less tolerant than any system of law. When human beings are governed by "thou shalt not", the individual can practise a certain amount of eccentricity: when they are supposedly governed by "love" or "reason", he is under continuous pressure to make him behave and think in exactly the same way as everyone else.
George Orwell is my hero.
Social Experiment: if you're pissed like me, copy and paste this into your sig, and add a number after it.
PISSED 8374982374983749873948234
Check out my band Man In A Shed |
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2010/02/28 02:27:05
Subject: Re:Celebrities you would like to punch
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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nintendoeats wrote:more or less ignoring what had been said previously rather than responding to it.
If I found irony half as funny as I should I would be on the floor right now.
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2010/02/28 02:28:45
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Dakka Veteran
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Oh hell.
Not
Doing
This
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In a Society in which there is no law, and in theory no compulsion, the only arbiter of behaviour is public opinion. But public opinion, because of the tremendous urge to conformity in gregarious animals, is less tolerant than any system of law. When human beings are governed by "thou shalt not", the individual can practise a certain amount of eccentricity: when they are supposedly governed by "love" or "reason", he is under continuous pressure to make him behave and think in exactly the same way as everyone else.
George Orwell is my hero.
Social Experiment: if you're pissed like me, copy and paste this into your sig, and add a number after it.
PISSED 8374982374983749873948234
Check out my band Man In A Shed |
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2010/02/28 02:38:00
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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...and now I'd have probably rolled off the floor, down the stairs and into the kitchen.
Me I'm well aware who here is making the non-constructive statements, ignoring arguments and not responding and it's not me. If we could get back to my earlier point before your appearance then..
whatwhat wrote:Albatross wrote:@whatwhat - I could explain why you are wrong, if I thought you were doing anything other than trolling...
Oh well, here goes:
Most rock and roll drummers were lighter and jazzier before Ringo Starr, certainly in the UK. They also tended to use the orthodox-style grip, as opposed to the matched grip. Ringo played with a matched grip, mostly because he was left handed and he would often play on a right-handed set-up. This allowed him to hit harder than most other drummers. He also hit the bass-drum harder, and rather than decorating his parts with lots of fills, he just concentrated on playing the backbeat as hard as possible. This made the Beatles' music more danceable and 'insistent'. It definitely contributed to their success.
None of that is remarkable for a drummer. Ringo's style suited the band, by no way was he the only person who could have done that. And Ringo didn't play fills because he was crap at them.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/02/28 02:39:20
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2010/02/28 02:55:09
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Dakka Veteran
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Ok, I'm being unfair.
THIS deserved double facepalm, since it completely failed to tread any new ground.
whatwhat wrote:Well, in that case. I think your overestimating Ringo Starr's part in the creative decisions of The Beatles somehow. And even if he had had more of a role, that doesn't make him a great drummer.
Up until then you were being reasonable. Not winning the argument I think, but reasonable.
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In a Society in which there is no law, and in theory no compulsion, the only arbiter of behaviour is public opinion. But public opinion, because of the tremendous urge to conformity in gregarious animals, is less tolerant than any system of law. When human beings are governed by "thou shalt not", the individual can practise a certain amount of eccentricity: when they are supposedly governed by "love" or "reason", he is under continuous pressure to make him behave and think in exactly the same way as everyone else.
George Orwell is my hero.
Social Experiment: if you're pissed like me, copy and paste this into your sig, and add a number after it.
PISSED 8374982374983749873948234
Check out my band Man In A Shed |
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2010/02/28 02:56:50
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Maybe you could explain your disagreement with it rather than posting "non constructive statements" about it.
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2010/02/28 02:58:37
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot
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In a few years everyone will have forgotten about The Beatles anyways. Noone likes their old folk music.
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Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
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2010/02/28 02:59:58
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Well...I like "their old foke music." No good?
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2010/02/28 03:02:05
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot
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They'll be replaced by -=DRAGONFORCE=- !!!
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Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
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2010/02/28 03:05:12
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Dakka Veteran
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whatwhat wrote:Maybe you could explain your disagreement with it rather than posting "non constructive statements" about it.
Its just a restatement of argument, the argument with which you began, and largely preying on the ambiguities of the situation. If you are saying that Ringo Starr having a reasonable creative influence on The Beatles work (Which I assume we all agree was some damn fine stuff) doesn't make him a great drummer, than you should define what you mean by a "great drummer." I expect what you were trying to do was shift the conversation to a discussion of what makes a musician great, a goal at which you did not succeed (unless you would like to do so now, but I don't see how one could make an argument about such a thing).
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In a Society in which there is no law, and in theory no compulsion, the only arbiter of behaviour is public opinion. But public opinion, because of the tremendous urge to conformity in gregarious animals, is less tolerant than any system of law. When human beings are governed by "thou shalt not", the individual can practise a certain amount of eccentricity: when they are supposedly governed by "love" or "reason", he is under continuous pressure to make him behave and think in exactly the same way as everyone else.
George Orwell is my hero.
Social Experiment: if you're pissed like me, copy and paste this into your sig, and add a number after it.
PISSED 8374982374983749873948234
Check out my band Man In A Shed |
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2010/02/28 03:05:15
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Orkeosaurus wrote:They'll be replaced by -=DRAGONFORCE=- !!!
Oh dear.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/02/28 03:05:36
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2010/02/28 03:05:26
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Dakka Veteran
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Orkeosaurus wrote:They'll be replaced by -=DRAGONFORCE=- !!!
I hate you. 
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/02/28 03:05:51
In a Society in which there is no law, and in theory no compulsion, the only arbiter of behaviour is public opinion. But public opinion, because of the tremendous urge to conformity in gregarious animals, is less tolerant than any system of law. When human beings are governed by "thou shalt not", the individual can practise a certain amount of eccentricity: when they are supposedly governed by "love" or "reason", he is under continuous pressure to make him behave and think in exactly the same way as everyone else.
George Orwell is my hero.
Social Experiment: if you're pissed like me, copy and paste this into your sig, and add a number after it.
PISSED 8374982374983749873948234
Check out my band Man In A Shed |
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2010/02/28 03:06:25
Subject: Re:Celebrities you would like to punch
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Regular Dakkanaut
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/02/28 03:06:58
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2010/02/28 03:15:45
Subject: Re:Celebrities you would like to punch
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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nintendoeats wrote:whatwhat wrote:Maybe you could explain your disagreement with it rather than posting "non constructive statements" about it.
Its just a restatement of argument, the argument with which you began, and largely preying on the ambiguities of the situation. If you are saying that Ringo Starr having a reasonable creative influence on The Beatles work (Which I assume we all agree was some damn fine stuff) doesn't make him a great drummer, than you should define what you mean by a "great drummer." I expect what you were trying to do was shift the conversation to a discussion of what makes a musician great, a goal at which you did not succeed (unless you would like to do so now, but I don't see how one could make an argument about such a thing).
What? Read it again...
whatwhat wrote:Well, in that case. I think your overestimating Ringo Starr's part in the creative decisions of The Beatles somehow. And even if he had had more of a role, that doesn't make him a great drummer.
Firstly, how is that "the argument with which you began." I was talking to Albatross about Starr's ability as a drummer. That there above was a response to your entirely new point about creative input.
Ringo Starr having a reasonable creative influence on The Beatles work (Which I assume we all agree was some damn fine stuff)
If you will read my post again I'm not actually agreeing that Ringo had a great deal of creative input. Chiefly where I say.... "Well, in that case. I think your overestimating Ringo Starr's part in the creative decisions of The Beatles somehow."
Ringo literally waited on the other members to create the songs then turned up at the studio. On one occasion he temporarily quit because they were taking too long to get material ready for the studio. Ringos creative input was I'm afraid lacking compared to the other members.
....doesn't make him a great drummer, than you should define what you mean by a "great drummer. I expect what you were trying to do was shift the conversation to a discussion of what makes a musician great, a goal at which you did not succeed (unless you would like to do so now, but I don't see how one could make an argument about such a thing).
I think it was fairly clear myself and Albetross were talking about Ringo's ability as a drummer not a band member which you seem to be confusing it with.
What part of that was worthy of your "double facepalm"?
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2010/02/28 03:39:23
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Dakka Veteran
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mwahaha. Much better.
So in essence, we ARE debating what we are debating.
This whole thing started with discussion about how and why Ringo was influential.
You were restating your argument very literaly. "even if what you say is true, I am still right" is just a restatement and a dismissal, unless you attatch a REASON that it is not true; perhaps a defenition of a great drummer.
In that veign, I realise that you weren't saying that Ringo had an influence. Your disgreement of that (which Albatross made a good argument for) is not a problem persay, but the point I was making against the second half of your post required it as a hypothetical.
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In a Society in which there is no law, and in theory no compulsion, the only arbiter of behaviour is public opinion. But public opinion, because of the tremendous urge to conformity in gregarious animals, is less tolerant than any system of law. When human beings are governed by "thou shalt not", the individual can practise a certain amount of eccentricity: when they are supposedly governed by "love" or "reason", he is under continuous pressure to make him behave and think in exactly the same way as everyone else.
George Orwell is my hero.
Social Experiment: if you're pissed like me, copy and paste this into your sig, and add a number after it.
PISSED 8374982374983749873948234
Check out my band Man In A Shed |
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2010/02/28 03:44:02
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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nintendoeats wrote:mwahaha. Much better.
So in essence, we ARE debating what we are debating.
This whole thing started with discussion about how and why Ringo was influential.
You were restating your argument very literaly. "even if what you say is true, I am still right" is just a restatement and a dismissal, unless you attatch a REASON that it is not true; perhaps a defenition of a great drummer.
In that veign, I realise that you weren't saying that Ringo had an influence. Your disgreement of that (which Albatross made a good argument for) is not a problem persay, but the point I was making against the second half of your post required it as a hypothetical.
What are you on about now? I never disagreed that Ringo Starr had an influence. Where did you get that from?
Read it back...
Albatross wrote:@whatwhat - he may have said that, but when Ringo was recruited, he was widely considered to be the best rock 'n' roll drummer in Liverpool. He's influenced more drummers than he's ever really given credit for.
whatwhat wrote:The sole reason he has become an influential drummer was because he was in The Beatles. All he actually did was hold a beat.
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2010/02/28 03:47:44
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Dakka Veteran
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whatwhat wrote:All he actually did was hold a beat.
This I believe to be The main point of contention.
In essence, Albatross is arguing that Ringo actually did something worth drawing inspiration from. This, it would seem, is what you disagree with. yes?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/02/28 03:48:18
In a Society in which there is no law, and in theory no compulsion, the only arbiter of behaviour is public opinion. But public opinion, because of the tremendous urge to conformity in gregarious animals, is less tolerant than any system of law. When human beings are governed by "thou shalt not", the individual can practise a certain amount of eccentricity: when they are supposedly governed by "love" or "reason", he is under continuous pressure to make him behave and think in exactly the same way as everyone else.
George Orwell is my hero.
Social Experiment: if you're pissed like me, copy and paste this into your sig, and add a number after it.
PISSED 8374982374983749873948234
Check out my band Man In A Shed |
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2010/02/28 03:53:04
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Erm, lets just leave it there. If Albatross wants to come back to this he can do but, nintendoeats no offence, you've done nothing but confuse me.
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2010/02/28 03:56:14
Subject: Celebrities you would like to punch
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Dakka Veteran
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Same here.
Rum and coke?
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In a Society in which there is no law, and in theory no compulsion, the only arbiter of behaviour is public opinion. But public opinion, because of the tremendous urge to conformity in gregarious animals, is less tolerant than any system of law. When human beings are governed by "thou shalt not", the individual can practise a certain amount of eccentricity: when they are supposedly governed by "love" or "reason", he is under continuous pressure to make him behave and think in exactly the same way as everyone else.
George Orwell is my hero.
Social Experiment: if you're pissed like me, copy and paste this into your sig, and add a number after it.
PISSED 8374982374983749873948234
Check out my band Man In A Shed |
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2010/02/28 12:42:45
Subject: Re:Celebrities you would like to punch
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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I'm back.
whatwhat wrote:Ringo literally waited on the other members to create the songs then turned up at the studio.
Erm... he was the drummer. That's fairly normal. 
We shouldn't get away from the fact that my original point was that he changed rock drumming forever. I never said or implied that he was a virtuoso. He wasn't - a fact which he acknowledges. It was his 'feel' that was so vital to the Beatles, his stripped-down, 'heavy' style that influenced many subsequent drummers, from John Bonham to Dave Grohl and many others.
whatwhat wrote:None of that is remarkable for a drummer. Ringo's style suited the band, by no way was he the only person who could have done that. And Ringo didn't play fills because he was crap at them.
Can you play them? There ARE fills in Beatles songs, and they are often very good. Ringo plays some fairly tricky stuff in 'I Feel Fine'. Plus whatwhat, you like dance music, yeah?
'Tomorrow Never Knows'
Sit there and tell me that it isn't influential. The beat is great, and trickier than it sounds.
In any case, perhaps another drummer could have done those things - but he didn't, not at that time and place. Elvis was only Elvis because of a certain set of circumstances, it could quite easily have been someone else. The Beatles were'nt the first to use a heavy backbeat, they weren't the first to use modal harmony, or Orientalism, sound collage or intertextuality and recontextualisation. But they popularised them - a certain set of factors meant that it is THEY who became influential. None of those things are remarkable now, but they were then, and so was Ringo's aggressive style.
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Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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