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They shouldn't be making changes like that if they aren't willing to do that to everyone. Other armies got hit with new edition changes that caused nerfs (fear causers, armies with bad core selections needing more now, skirmishers, units that use terrain, bad leadership armies, goblins panicking from war-machines and fanatics being destroyed, etc) but they didn't get that fixed. Of all the things that might have needed help the Steam Tank isn't on that list since the stuff that would screw it over at T6 (cannons, stone throwers, certain magic items) wounded it on a 2+ in 7th anyway which apparently wasn't a huge problem then. Units are getting wiped off the board in a turn in 8th with no real recourse so saying that the Steam Tank should be immune to this isn't really fair.

The Steam Tank might not make up its 300 point cost every game, but it will probably destroy something and then not be destroyed fully which is still a benefit. Lets also be honest if someone is using a Tank they will probably have two so they will focus fire on units. WIth 10 D3 impact hits a turn you can be sure they will be grinding down the big stuff that the Empire player doesn't want the rest of his army to deal with.

No, if you notice they DID change everyone: everyone classified as a warmachine got a stats change. This was needed as they have changed how warmachines operate.

So the s'tank, which is a warmachine, has the same T value as other comparable "warmachine" like elements such as casket / anvil etc.

You are also ignoring that terrain WILL have a bigger impact as you will see more of it about. The stank wont hav fun with a lot of the terrain rules thats for sure....

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, if you notice they DID change everyone: everyone classified as a warmachine got a stats change.

Really?! Scurries off to check Doomwheel on FAQ...

What doth thou speakith of? Not only did no other warmachine get its stats changed (all my orc warmachines are still T7), but as is warmachines are hard enough to kill now that everything is shot at and casted at the warmachines stats... but still gets saves from the crew (Crew cowers behind machine... machine gets damaged... crew takes an armor save for what apparently didnt hurt them but hurt their machine they hid behind... crew dies at machines damaged expense... does that make any sense?). So no, they didnt change everyones stats... they were quite selective in that matter...

To be fair, if what was quoted in an erlier thread was true, about them constantly keeping up and updated the FAQs... then hopefully this will change and even things out.

Also, isnt the steamtank the most expensive item in any book that can misfire?

Personally im not scared of the thing at all, it will be a nuisance, but its not unbeatable...

Actually im looking forward to any empire player who runs one, its a very easily dealt with 300 points.

Buttler - anything else that was *like* the steam tank - if you looked at my examples (sigh, why do i bother giving them...) you will notice the Casket is now T10 rather than being unkillable, the Anvil is also T10 rather than being unkillable, etc.

So they made the Stank, which is *considerably* tougher than a wood framed cannon, T10 as well - as it is consistent.

If you had read you would also see that again "toughness" is used to mean something slightly more complicated: here it is representing the difficulty in actually hitting a crewman in amongst that mass of metal but that if you DO hit a crewman then he kinda needs to see if his own armour will save him. Same as initiative doesnt always mean "hey im super fast!" - see 40k and Orks where they havea low I of 2 and "high" T4 but high WS. The 3 elements combined achieve the effect they want that the single stat alone doesnt show.

You have to look at how these all work in conjunction, same as any abstracted system each stat isnt there in isolation.

There's a difference between making something that was literally invincible due to the war-machine single profile rules change T10 and giving a unit T10 because maybe it would get hurt more easily. One is a fix to something that is game breaking (think Thorek that has no way of being destroyed short of a lucky Infernal Gateway) and another is something some guy thought would be more fair which is incredibly subjective. There's no change in the core rules that made a difference to how the Steam Tank worked with the exception of S2 being able to wound it now and I guess it can't autobreak units US 9 or smaller.

Also the misfire on the Steam Tank is meaningless. The use of that thing is to smash into units and crush them while bogging them down until that happens, not firing its peashooter cannon.

Here's a question on the steam tank - since it's no longer a warmachine, wouldn't you get half points for it if you knock it down to half wounds or less?

Anyone else think the WoC Book of Secrets FAQ is pretty weird. Regardless of the caster lvl, if they take it they become a Lvl 1 caster. Wouldn't make much sense then to give it to your Lvl 4 caster then.

I believe there are no partial points for anything now so it's still an effective points denial piece.

Ixquic - sorry but all you get from that is "I cant cope"

The reason for the change has been explained to you, you just dont accept it. Unfortunately that is irrelevant.

they have errata'd the Steamtank away from its 7th ed incarnation (too easy to kill) to something more like its 6th ed incarnation (fairly horrid....) to justify the 300 points it costs. As has been pointed out - EVERY army has a way to kill it, and you only need to get two wounds (something for example wood elf bowfire can EASILY do now it cannot be hidden so easily) before the empire player risks further damage even using it.

Anyone else has cheap, reliable *stubborn* troops that can hold it up for turns. No autobreak means a 60point unit of slaves with the general nearby will happily stick around, turn after turn.

As a points denial piece its kinda crap. If you intend to never shoot the cannon. Then my crap unit only needs to hold it up for 3-4 turns. When and if it breaks through I can hit it with whatever I please. If you deccide to not engage then you're playing 300pts down.
Which ill gladly do anyday of the week.

You don't need to beat the steam tank. Just mitigate it and beat the rest of the t3 models running around.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, if you notice they DID change everyone: everyone classified as a warmachine got a stats change. This was needed as they have changed how warmachines operate.

So the s'tank, which is a warmachine, has the same T value as other comparable "warmachine" like elements such as casket / anvil etc.

You are also ignoring that terrain WILL have a bigger impact as you will see more of it about. The stank wont hav fun with a lot of the terrain rules thats for sure....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Buttler - anything else that was *like* the steam tank - if you looked at my examples (sigh, why do i bother giving them...) you will notice the Casket is now T10 rather than being unkillable, the Anvil is also T10 rather than being unkillable, etc.

So they made the Stank, which is *considerably* tougher than a wood framed cannon, T10 as well - as it is consistent.

If you had read you would also see that again "toughness" is used to mean something slightly more complicated: here it is representing the difficulty in actually hitting a crewman in amongst that mass of metal but that if you DO hit a crewman then he kinda needs to see if his own armour will save him. Same as initiative doesnt always mean "hey im super fast!" - see 40k and Orks where they havea low I of 2 and "high" T4 but high WS. The 3 elements combined achieve the effect they want that the single stat alone doesnt show.

You have to look at how these all work in conjunction, same as any abstracted system each stat isnt there in isolation.

Nosferatu, I can understand where your comming at, and I agree, Im merely saying that the way they describe it in the book doesnt make sense.
If you refer back to your first post I commented towards... you didnt say anything else that was *like* the steam tank. You said everything classified as a a warmachine, got its stats changed.
I understand where you are comming from and agree though It just seems wierd that they boost some armies but not others. Granted it is killable, and stopable, its just fairly difficult to do so!

You underlined the first sentence, and missed the second whcih clarified what I meant.

A 20 ton piece of stonking great metal IS comparable to an anvil or a casket, and certainly tougher than a cannon.

they have simply been consistent: there are NO "un woundable" models any longer.

I agree, as said in my last post. It is very comparable, and makes sense. Thats why I have yet to post exclaiming the Steam Tank as unkillable. Difficult to kill? Yeah, especially for some armies more than others. But thats part of the game.

I guess I took it a bit over what I meant in my first post @ you. Guess I need to stop posting at 6 in the morning when Im half asleep and dont know what the feth Im typing!

From wh-forum: Rumor has it that the errata/faq-documents will be actually updated in a timely manner, as there certainly is some issues with them currently (in addition to publishing the main rules faq presumably). Same rumours also indicated that the stank will not be immune to non-str magic anymore when the erratas will be "fixed". Dunno if the t10 stays untouched, but at least it's pretty sensible that lore of _metal_ would affect the thing after all.

Well not really, as large amounts of iron in both Fantasy and, well, anything that deals with magic tends to nullify magic - and that is what the stank is made of!

They are unlikely to update *too* often, as it acts as a barrier to entry and to continued play - for example monthly updates would just get annoying, having to print off 3 pages to see if theyve changed anything....

Originally thought from the initial reading that the Steam Tank would lose the immunity to magic - however after reading the FAQ and the army book some more, I would have to agree that it keeps some of it's rules. Its classified as a chariot now (which doesn't really matter I think), but I can understand the change in toughness.

Of course, you should be able to poison it now that its a chariot right?

Plus I think alot of folks are bringing up good points on it that it will be extremely hard for it to break units anymore, at least for a couple turns. Still pretty nasty, but with no more autobreaking from terror and steadfast rules, I think it got toned down a bit. Still are going to need 6s to wound the sucker, but its a pretty big point sink too (less warmachines for Empire to take).

Has anyone else heard of a second errata/FAQ they are supposed to be putting out in a couple weeks for 8th edition in general?

No immunity to poison any longer, whcih is handy - my skink would love it

given *everything* can wound it the basic 3D6 S1 no AS spell for Nurgle is horrific - on an average roll it takes two wounds off the stank, for a cheap spell to cast.

yeah with 6's being able to wound, there are A LOT of spells and what not that only do S1 or S2 hits but dont allow armor saves, will be interesting.

The nurgle stonethrower spell is horribly nasty as well now with no scatter...

It still scatters.

Grr, meant no "guess"...you get to place it exactly where you want it, and have a 1/3rd chance of then hitting that spot.

Posting with with mahoooosive headache = mistakes..

I'm always amused that a .333 chance of a template hitting is treated like an onslaught of laser guided bombs. However, anything with a BS of 3 means they'll never hit anything.

ZF-

well considering that a BS 3 is hitting on 4's and 90% of the time you have at least one modifier, yeah they arent that great unless you can take them in bulk.....

Stupid jezzails and there BS3, they are snipers!

BS3 is usually 5's due to long range, meaning you have *at best* a 1/3rd chance.

Whereas with scattering blasts you have, depending on the unit size, 1/3rd plus {1,1}, {1,2},.... scatter results can still net you some hits, especially with no partials. Oh, and no modifiers due to cover, etc.

It is quite a lot better than it used to be!

I keep forgetting that no partial thing...

So used to playing skaven....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ixquic - sorry but all you get from that is "I cant cope"

The reason for the change has been explained to you, you just dont accept it. Unfortunately that is irrelevant.

they have errata'd the Steamtank away from its 7th ed incarnation (too easy to kill) to something more like its 6th ed incarnation (fairly horrid....) to justify the 300 points it costs. As has been pointed out - EVERY army has a way to kill it, and you only need to get two wounds (something for example wood elf bowfire can EASILY do now it cannot be hidden so easily) before the empire player risks further damage even using it.

Anyone else has cheap, reliable *stubborn* troops that can hold it up for turns. No autobreak means a 60point unit of slaves with the general nearby will happily stick around, turn after turn.

Don't really wanna get sucked into the debate (I don't have any regular Empire opponents) but Wood elf bowfire can, in no way, wound it easily. You need 36 hits to cause 1 single wound. Essentially i'd need to shoot every bow in my 2000pt army at it for 3 turns to (statistically) get the 3 wounds needed to "neutralise" it. Really the only reliable choices wood elves have is to either ignore it or keep terrain in between it and anything valuable. (okay, we could try to use the spirit sword, but that needs a lord choice, and is as risky to you as it is to the stank).

Just my tuppence, anyway.

Cast amber spear from beast lore with a level 4. Level 4s are hard to stop.

In my Dwarf armybook it says "Dwarf Lords (but not Thanes) are of Royal Blood" but it says in the FAQ that I should change it too.... exactly that!

Are there some older versions still around with some misprint? Bought mine like 2-3 years ago >_>

Shep wrote:Cast amber spear from beast lore with a level 4. Level 4s are hard to stop.

If i'm taking a Spellweaver i'd much prefer to take lore of life.

Talking of magic, can the stank be affected by hexes, or is it just damage spells?