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First off, Stone throwers are Strength 9 under the hole. Second, you only need 5 models to be steadfast vs a Stank.

Stanks won't affect my beasts very much if I keep my Stonecrusher Mace, S10 against it, so 4's to wound.

skyth wrote:First off, Stone throwers are Strength 9 under the hole. Second, you only need 5 models to be steadfast vs a Stank.

You still need more ranks. 0 Ranks v 0 ranks = no Steadfast. Unless you meant five after the first five, which is what I meant by having at least ten models left in the unit.

And needing 5's to wound with a direct hit from a Stone Thrower (4's with Dwarves) isn't particularly great, considering a scatter of 2" is usually enough to take you off (and thus now 6's with no save modifier). Considering you multiply wounds after successfully wounding as well, you aren't going to do much with one. It's better than a BT, yes (-6 to the save is "No Armor Save" this edition, 5's to wound instead of 6, D6 instead of D3), but that's not much of a particular gain.

Did I read the Empire Mortar correctly in that it now does d3 wounds, or is that only for models under the hole?

Minsc wrote:

skyth wrote: Second, you only need 5 models to be steadfast vs a Stank.

You still need more ranks. 0 Ranks v 0 ranks = no Steadfast. Unless you meant five after the first five, which is what I meant by having at least ten models left in the unit.
.

5 models is 1 rank of 5+ models. 1 model is 0 ranks of 5+ models. If you have 5 models left at the end of a combat with a steamtank, then you have more ranks than the steamtank and are thus steadfast.

And needing 5's to wound with a direct hit from a Stone Thrower (4's with Dwarves) isn't particularly great, considering a scatter of 2" is usually enough to take you off (and thus now 6's with no save modifier). Considering you multiply wounds after successfully wounding as well, you aren't going to do much with one. It's better than a BT, yes (-6 to the save is "No Armor Save" this edition, 5's to wound instead of 6, D6 instead of D3), but that's not much of a particular gain.

A Stank is big enough to get hit with a 2" scatter. Not to mention that 3 Rock Lobbas are less points than a Stank and a Stank that takes a couple wounds is basically a terrain piece. Heck a unit of Black Orcs that charge a stank are likely to do 2 wounds to it, basically rendering it ineffective.

You are forgetting that a 300 point unit SHOULD BE hard to disable.

Minsc - you are confusing *ranks* with *rank bonus*

A rank is 5 models wide, and starts when you have 5 models wide. You may have no rank *bonus*, but Steadfast does not require that.

skyth wrote:Interesting finds/Changes:


Dragons/etc only count towards Lord choices, not Lord and Hero choices

Where did you get this one from?

DE FAQ. Stupidly that errata hasn't been made in every relevant FAQ.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Minsc - you are confusing *ranks* with *rank bonus*

A rank is 5 models wide, and starts when you have 5 models wide. You may have no rank *bonus*, but Steadfast does not require that.

Really? Do fighty skirmishing units (like dryads) count as having a rank at 5-wide, too (just no rank bonus)? This is interesting...

@Jin: It was in the WoC one as well.

@Buttlerthepug - good to know. I haven't gotten around to reading through all the FAQs yet, but the errata was noticeably absent in the HE FAQ.

Hmmm, thats odd... Will have to check that out.

Still no armour of any kind for Vlad Von Cartstein despite the fact he is blatantly wearing some.

RiTides wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Minsc - you are confusing *ranks* with *rank bonus*

A rank is 5 models wide, and starts when you have 5 models wide. You may have no rank *bonus*, but Steadfast does not require that.

Really? Do fighty skirmishing units (like dryads) count as having a rank at 5-wide, too (just no rank bonus)? This is interesting...

They have no ranks.

I would argue that now steam tanks are entirely vunerable to magic without a strength and other effects, based on two points in the empire FAQ:

1)Change the profile, equipment and special rules for the Steam
Tank to:

Nothing in the following part about immunity


2) Q. Is the Steam Tank destroyed by a Heroic Killing Blow? (p51)
A. Yes.


AFIK it was immune to KB type effects previously.



however the question about pit of shades raises an eyebrow and screams inconsistency.


I guess we'll have to wait for the next FAQ for the true answer.

but hopefully..... purple sunning Stanks might become an option?

Sirius42 wrote:I would argue that now steam tanks are entirely vunerable to magic without a strength and other effects, based on two points in the empire FAQ:

1)Change the profile, equipment and special rules for the Steam
Tank to:

Nothing in the following part about immunity


2) Q. Is the Steam Tank destroyed by a Heroic Killing Blow? (p51)
A. Yes.


AFIK it was immune to KB type effects previously.



however the question about pit of shades raises an eyebrow and screams inconsistency.


I guess we'll have to wait for the next FAQ for the true answer.

but hopefully..... purple sunning Stanks might become an option?

Sadly you're mistaken. For your interpretation to be correct, the new rules of the Steam Tank don't say how to generate steam points. Only the parts that were mentioned in the FAQ were changed. The first section means that the special rules mentioned under the statline got changed to the following. There's no inconsistency in the Steam Tank rules at all. I'm afraid you simply failed at reading comprehension.

Ixquic wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:tomb king magic got destroyed.....

They dont get to add their caster level to invokes, meaning a level 4 wizard will just laugh and toss one dice at their one dice invokes and almost all dispell them, two dice invokes will be easier to dispell on two dice also.

What?? With no hero cap you can just spam priests. More than likely the opponent isn't going to be having more than 4-5 dispel dice while you have something like 10+ power dice that can't fail to go off and isn't capped at 12 since they don't count as power dice.

Unlike the base Lores, you can't do damage with TK magic easily. You still have to have good units to win fights, which puts a limit on fielding casters.

Second, a lvl 4 wizard has crazy success rates dispelling TK spells on 1 die. One die stomps all mummy incantations, and one die from a lvl 4 beats 2d6 more than half the time. You'll get some magic off, but not much and mainly after your opponent runs dry on dispel dice.

skyth wrote:

RiTides wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Minsc - you are confusing *ranks* with *rank bonus*

A rank is 5 models wide, and starts when you have 5 models wide. You may have no rank *bonus*, but Steadfast does not require that.

Really? Do fighty skirmishing units (like dryads) count as having a rank at 5-wide, too (just no rank bonus)? This is interesting...

They have no ranks.

Makes sense. Well, I'll have the book tomorrow, so I can answer a lot of these questions (and verify the answers I'm getting here) finally!

Well bretonnians don't get stubborn it appears. it only says that they get a rank with 3 models.

And we know how useful rank bonuses are now...

Stubborn = having more ranks than your opponent. So if they get a rank with 3 models, they'll still get stubborn if they have more ranks than the opposing unit... right?

It's the same with monstrous infantry getting a rank with 3 models, I think.

I have the book, so I could answer some questions, I'll go through the posts and check out the questions and edit this with the answer.

Edit: Ok, I'll cite a paragraph.

..."Skirmishers always count as having zero ranks, and therefore cannot claim a rank bonus, be steadfast, or disorder an enemy with a flank or rear attack - they make supporting attacks as normal, however"...

I'm looking at the Ogre's Gut Magic changes - the errata refers to the "third paragraph" and "fifth paragraph", but it's not really clear if they are counting the 2 paragraphs of flavour text at the start of the page.

Assuming that they are counting from the "Casting Gut Magic" header onwards, these are the changes:

- Butchers and Slaughtermasters are no longer limited in how many dice they can throw at a single spell.
- The paragraph that noted that Butchers could have multiple persistent Gut Magic spells in play (unlike "Remain in Play" spells) has been deleted. I'm not sure if this means that Gut Magic has been restricted, or if the rules for Remains in Play spells were loosened in 8th...

Therion wrote:

Sirius42 wrote:I would argue that now steam tanks are entirely vunerable to magic without a strength and other effects, based on two points in the empire FAQ:

1)Change the profile, equipment and special rules for the Steam
Tank to:

Nothing in the following part about immunity


2) Q. Is the Steam Tank destroyed by a Heroic Killing Blow? (p51)
A. Yes.


AFIK it was immune to KB type effects previously.



however the question about pit of shades raises an eyebrow and screams inconsistency.


I guess we'll have to wait for the next FAQ for the true answer.

but hopefully..... purple sunning Stanks might become an option?

Sadly you're mistaken. For your interpretation to be correct, the new rules of the Steam Tank don't say how to generate steam points. Only the parts that were mentioned in the FAQ were changed. The first section means that the special rules mentioned under the statline got changed to the following. There's no inconsistency in the Steam Tank rules at all. I'm afraid you simply failed at reading comprehension.

Special Rules are clearly listed for the Steam Tank in the FAQ. Steam Points is listed. Immunity to Magic is not.

The amount of things not balanced in the FAQs are one thing, but the obvious things that weren't updated for 8th are especially surprising. Like 'Blood of Tzeentch' in the WoC book, which lets you reroll any 1 casting die that isn't a 1 ... One only assumes that this was to avoid negating miscasts, but now it in fact does just that!

Overall though, the mind boggles. TK magic effectively only getting better (on the defense) is the biggest kicker.

- Salvage

Steam tank t10... Yeah right. I know why they did it, but that certainly doesn't make it the right decision. Armies without cannons have a _really_ hard time getting any points from these let alone if empire has 2. If they were so worried about TLoS shooting affecting the tank, why not give it a shooting ward save or some other stuff.

I foresee coming to some other solution than t10 in my games (or even just keeping the old statline). Single model "Unkillable" units are not very good for the game.

I believe stubborn is only granted with 5 wide models, 3 for monsterous.

But then again i need to have a book in my hands to read and know exactly what i am talking about huh.

The change to T10 for the steam tank is moot.

A Strength 1 attack can now wound it with the to wound roll of a 6 since they change the 'To Wound' chart.

With massed 'volley fire' and the proliferation of units of 20 archers 1-2 wounds are all you need now to virtually incapacitate it.

Mahu wrote:
Special Rules are clearly listed for the Steam Tank in the FAQ. Steam Points is listed. Immunity to Magic is not.

The immunity to magic thing is not in the 'Special Rules' section...

Chaos lord - if you notice they have made all "big killy things" T10, so you can now kill an anvil or casket where before you could not.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:With massed 'volley fire' and the proliferation of units of 20 archers 1-2 wounds are all you need now to virtually incapacitate it.

First: You could always wound a STank with archers already. 6's to wound, just like now, but then you got +1 to hit.

Second: Death by arrows is still a horribly inefficient method, taking some 36 hits on average to slap a single wound. I know averages aren't exactly average, but even dropping it down to half eighteen hits / wound and needing about three-to-four wounds to truly gut a STank means at least around 54 hits, which at long range means around 108 shots minimal for most armies. Handgunners are slightly better off, "only" needing about 54 shots to slap that on, but again realize that's with each wound twice as likely as normal.

STanks wouldn't be as bad (you can still counter that by easily putting out a wound in one round of shooting and then slapping the others in hand-to-hand), if they couldn't field two in 2,500pt games.