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White Consuls
   
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Salamanders.

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DarthDiggler wrote:White Consuls
Normal Codex Chapter.

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Kanluwen wrote:Traits were and still are terrible for representing Chapters. They're fine for representing Companies or "Mary Sue" forces--but by their very nature they will not necessarily be expansive enough to showcase those forces which we have descriptions of. Heck, if you do it right you could maybe give generic characters a 'Trait' system which lets them influence how their army list is built with a trade-off list.

Characters are a good way to add flavor, given that characters are characters for a reason--namely that they have done something 'heroic'. They have a set history, they have set ways of operating, etc.

Ideally, if Games Workshop were calling me and saying "Hey Kan, make a good way for us to stop making Chapter Codices"...I'd reply with "Okay, but it'll still be more than one book and I want to do the same thing with Chaos."

Why would I say that?

Because cramming a practically innumerable setup for Chapters into one book is ridiculous.

My 'Ideal Setup' is this:
Book I: "Angels of Death". This will be your "Codex" Chapters. Your Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Ultramarines and their Successors, etc. Two or three "major" characters for each of the Chapters outlined within, with a small "Chapter" section of unique weapons and/or units or formations associated with those characters.

Book II: "Savage Faith". This will be your "non-Codex" Chapters which focus mostly on close combat. Your Blood Angels and their Successors, the Space Wolves, and the Black Templars. Again, follow the setup of the above.

Book III: "Angels of Wrath". This will be your "Close to but Not Quite" Codex Chapters. Iron Hands,White Scars, and both the Raven Guard and Dark Angels along with their Successors. Same setup in regards to characters, formations, etc.

I think Chaos would end up with four books in my way of thinking, but I've not done too much brainstorming on them...yet.


That...makes more sense than anything else written so far. IMHO

I think for chaos I'd have four:

1. Chaos Daemons.

2. Undivided chaos warbands.

3. Warbands with a patron.

4. Renegades.

That way you get your daemons, your standard CSM, Your 1k sons, berserkers etc. and your Soul-Drinker-esque thing.

Also, the Undivided Warbands could take a limited number of patron'd units, but very limited.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ogryn wrote:Salamanders.


Codex

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/18 01:51:54


   
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Gathering the Informations.

I wouldn't give Daemons their own book, frankly. But I would have some overlap going on I guess.

It's kind of hard to really divvy Chaos up well without going silly.

Ideally, I'd do this:
Book I: "Servants of the Dark God". 'Generic' Undivided forces--Black Legion, Word Bearers, and the Thousand Sons.

Book II: "The Touch of the Corrupt".
'Generic' Tzeentchian Warbands(read: not Thousand Sons proper, but something similar might be workable) and Nurgle warbands+Death Guard.
I know that Tzeentch and Nurgle are diametrically opposed, but they also have a lot in common. Both play "the long odds", and manipulate circumstances to their favor.

Book III: "Gaze of the Gods".
Khornate warbands and Slaaneshi warbands. World Eaters and Emperor's Children get their own lists in here.
Again, they're diametrically opposed...but again very similar. They both favor their heroes who perform well, and enjoy punishing those who fail.

Book IV: "Shattered Oaths".
This one will be...well. This one is kinda tough.
I'm thinking that Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Red Corsairs all have some good tie-ins. They try to get rid of 'marked' units--but they're not entirely opposed to making use of said 'marked' units.

Daemons would be available to all of them, so that's kind of my biggest fear right there.
   
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...Thousand Sons aren't undivided though.

best way is to have 2 Chaos Codex's.

1. Undivided
Includes basically everything with cheaper but more numerous units

2. Dedicated
Includes the 4 singular worships with more expensive more powerful units. Shares the same lists except for specialised units such as Rhubric, Berserkers, Plague Marines and Noise Marines which also dictate your HQ and Daemon choices etc.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/18 02:29:41




 
   
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DarkCorsair wrote:What would I like to see? A short supplement book for Space Marines containing rules for certain chapters (for example you could buy x ability for xx points, but if you do you can't use x unit, or you lose combat tactics). It could also contain new units for certain chapters, and contain fluff for these chapters.


A system like that doesn't work. Any system where you give up something to gain something else is inherently flawed because you can get away with taking bonuses whilst taking 'penalties' that aren't really penalties. It's the reason why the Trait system (and the Doctrine system before it) didn't work. If the thing you lost was something you were never going to take in the first place, then you haven't really lost anything, have you?

I mean if, for exammple, you could pay X points to get twin-linked on all your Meltas and Master Crafting on all Thunder Hammers, but you lost the ability to take Assault Squads but were never going to take Assault Squads in your army, then there's no down side to this ability. Its like how in the old Trait system you could take a bonus, and then take a penalty, and you could take the 'No allies allowed' penalty which was great if you never intended to take any allies.

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Gathering the Informations.

Blood_Raven wrote:...Thousand Sons aren't undivided though.

Thousand Sons aren't Undivided, but they're also not solely Tzeentchian.

There's two 'flavors' of Tzeentchian elements right now. There's Thousand Sons...and then everybody else.

The Thousand Sons are distinct enough that putting them into the book alongside other Tzeentchian forces just confuses everyone.
   
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I understand that not all Tzeentchian Marines are Thousand Sons... but aren't all Thousand Sons Tzeentchian Marines?

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

All the Rubric Marines are essentially automatons.

They don't care about Tzeentch or Chaos period, they just follow the orders passed to them by their sorcerous brothers.
People like Ahriman or the other more 'famous' Thousand Son sorcerers seem to be less of the "Tzeentch" devotion, more of the "I am above such petty things as simple devotion, and will use whatever tool I want for the job".

I know it feels silly to separate the two, but the fluff has (to me at least) always painted the Thousand Sons being split into two distinct factions.
You've got Ahriman's faction, who are the most common ones going out into the Materium and scouring for a way into the Black Library to get at the knowledge necessary to reverse the Rubric.

Then you've got Magnus' faction, who seemingly aren't doing too much outside of quiet contemplation on the Planet of Sorcerers. These ones would be more of your 'traditional' Tzeentchian faction.
   
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Kan is correct with his distinction and there is a clear separation from a fluff perspective. From a rules perspective, separating the two would cause further confusion IMO. It would be simpler to leave both factions in the same book and leave it up to fluff entries and user creativity to emphasise a distinction.

I could see chaos being done adequately as two books:

Chaos Renegades
• Contains rules for Alpha Legion, Red Corsairs, Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Traitor Guardsman/cultists.
• Does not contain marked daemons or greater daemons but has almost as much toys as loyalist forces.


Chaos Legions
• Contains the big 4 + Black Legion + Word Bearers + God specific daemons.
• Book would make use of a strong mark system plus FOC unlocks to represent god specific units and warbands.
• Less toys than loyalist and renegades. Operates as a smaller numbers, elite type MEQ force.

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Vermillion wrote:Traits.

Crusader like adjustes the army to be BT like.
Clan adjusts it to be IH, Salamanders like
Emo vampire adjusts to BA, Ravenguard like
Closetemo for DA like
Codex for UM, IF, etc

Gets rid of special character stigma, give each triat a set advatages and flaws set in stone and not abusable. Oh trait names are WiP


lol Emo Vampires.. perfectly describes Blood Angels and those who play them *Duck*
   
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Kanluwen wrote:All the Rubric Marines are essentially automatons.

They don't care about Tzeentch or Chaos period, they just follow the orders passed to them by their Sorcerous brothers.


Ok, well yes, but they're still Tzeentchian automatons in the sense that there are no Slaaneshi or Nurglesque Thousand Son Marines being directed around by Slaaneshi or Nurglesque Sorcerers.

Kanluwen wrote:People like Ahriman or the other more 'famous' Thousand Son sorcerers seem to be less of the "Tzeentch" devotion, more of the "I am above such petty things as simple devotion, and will use whatever tool I want for the job".


I agree here, especially Ahriman who started this whole thing to both save his Legion and to master Chaos in order to defeat it. Of course, his chosen tool is Tzeentch, and him and his disciples all fall under the ‘Tzeentchian’ heading as well, if only because they’re not unaligned (they certainly are dedicated, even if out of convenience or necessity rather than any real devotion) and they’re not aligned to any other Chaos God.

Kanluwen wrote:I know it feels silly to separate the two, but the fluff has (to me at least) always painted the Thousand Sons being split into two distinct factions.


It’s not silly at all. I’ve long thought that the 1KSons should exist in two distinct factions – those that went with Ahriman, and those that stayed with Magnus. In our own fluff/campaigns we even had a disciple of Ahriman who eventually lost confidence in his master and rose to be a major champion for Magnus’ side.

I’m completely down with the idea of splitting the two (more Rubric Marines for Ahriman as he hates the changing nature of Tzeentch, and more Possessed (and similar) for Magnus as he accepts and embraces all that comes with the God of Magic and Change). I would still argue that both factions are still Tzeentchian, even if one worships Tzeentch whereas the other simply uses it as a means to an end.

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Gathering the Informations.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:All the Rubric Marines are essentially automatons.

They don't care about Tzeentch or Chaos period, they just follow the orders passed to them by their Sorcerous brothers.


Ok, well yes, but they're still Tzeentchian automatons in the sense that there are no Slaaneshi or Nurglesque Thousand Son Marines being directed around by Slaaneshi or Nurglesque Sorcerers.

See, but here's where I take issue with putting them in under the Tzeentch heading.

There's nothing about them where it comes up and slaps you upside the head saying "TZEENTCH! TZEENTCH! TZEENTCH!".

The Rubric Marines, as it stand now, have no real organization nor any motives. They're reliant entirely upon the Sorcerers of the Cabals and the like.

To use a hesitant metaphor: they might as well be Tyranids guided by the Hive Mind, for all the interaction they currently have.

Kanluwen wrote:People like Ahriman or the other more 'famous' Thousand Son sorcerers seem to be less of the "Tzeentch" devotion, more of the "I am above such petty things as simple devotion, and will use whatever tool I want for the job".


I agree here, especially Ahriman who started this whole thing to both save his Legion and to master Chaos in order to defeat it. Of course, his chosen tool is Tzeentch, and him and his disciples all fall under the ‘Tzeentchian’ heading as well, if only because they’re not unaligned (they certainly are dedicated, even if out of convenience or necessity rather than any real devotion) and they’re not aligned to any other Chaos God.

See, if it were me?

I'd go a bit further and kind of do a 'retcon' of Ahriman using Tzeentch as his chosen tool.

Ahriman as a kind of 'Sorcerous Cabal' example, where he gets his own special formation, replete with cultists and Rubric Marines--it would be very different say to if we introduced a character and archetype in the actual Tzeentch list where he is focused more upon the scheming aspect, while Ahriman is focused more upon the anarchy and exploitation of knowledge he requires in the main book and Ahriman isn't limited to just Tzeentchian "Lore", but knows how to exploit all the Ruinous Powers to his own advantage.

Kanluwen wrote:I know it feels silly to separate the two, but the fluff has (to me at least) always painted the Thousand Sons being split into two distinct factions.


It’s not silly at all. I’ve long thought that the 1KSons should exist in two distinct factions – those that went with Ahriman, and those that stayed with Magnus. In our own fluff/campaigns we even had a disciple of Ahriman who eventually lost confidence in his master and rose to be a major champion for Magnus’ side.

I’m completely down with the idea of splitting the two (more Rubric Marines for Ahriman as he hates the changing nature of Tzeentch, and more Possessed (and similar) for Magnus as he accepts and embraces all that comes with the God of Magic and Change). I would still argue that both factions are still Tzeentchian, even if one worships Tzeentch whereas the other simply uses it as a means to an end.

It comes down to splitting hairs but I'd feel more comfortable doing Tzeentch as not an organization that was forced into Tzeentch's grasp like the Thousand Sons were, instead focusing upon those who go willingly seeking the Changer of Ways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should also add that I've been thinking a bit more about how I'd do 'something' to tie the various books for the Loyalists together, and that would be one section shared amongst all of them...and even adapted for all the races, given some brainstorming.

H.B.M.C., you'll love this one.

Section: "Deathwatch Veteran Honors".

Veteran Sergeants(any squad, from Scouts to Terminators), Terminator, Sternguard, Vanguard, and whatever the specific book's equivalent to those categories are can be given a specific Honor from a list within.

Examples would be:
Scout Veteran Sergeant is given the "Strike Swift, Strike Silent" Veteran Honor.
He exchanges his normal Bolter and Bolt Pistol/CCW combination for a Stalker Bolter and his armor is exchanged for "Infiltrator" Scout Armor rather than the "standard" pattern(which I don't think has ever been named, but "Rites of Battle" does make it clear that it's not 100% the same, apparently). This allows the Scout Veteran Sergeant to have an Interlocutor Beacon, which gives the owner the ability to ignore things which would disrupt Deep Striking units or stuff of that nature.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/18 05:02:46


 
   
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Kanluwen wrote:See, but here's where I take issue with putting them in under the Tzeentch heading.

There's nothing about them where it comes up and slaps you upside the head saying "TZEENTCH! TZEENTCH! TZEENTCH!".


Other than the fact that they're the Cult Troops of the Tzeentch-serving Legion, and always have been in every single iteration of the 40K fluff since the 1KSons' inception in Lost & The Damned (page 267 if you want to check). There's 'interpreting' the fluff Kan, and then there's what I'll call 'wilful creative ignorance'.

Kanluwen wrote:The Rubric Marines, as it stand now, have no real organization nor any motives. They're reliant entirely upon the Sorcerers of the Cabals and the like.


That's because Rubric Marines are not an organisation or entity unto themselves. They are foot soldiers wielded as weapons by their (Tzeentch-aligned) Sorcerer masters. Just because they are automatons doesn't mean they aren't of Tzeentch. They might have no say in the matter, but they fight in armies dedicated to, fighting for or simply using the powers granted by Tzeentch. They never fight as forces aligned with Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh or unaligned. They always fight under the banner of Tzeentch, even if they themselves no longer have any real understanding of the concept.

Kanluwen wrote:To use a hesitant metaphor: they might as well be Tyranids guided by the Hive Mind, for all the interaction they currently have.


Not really the same thing.

Kanluwen wrote:See, if it were me?

I'd go a bit further and kind of do a 'retcon' of Ahriman using Tzeentch as his chosen tool.

Ahriman as a kind of 'Sorcerous Cabal' example, where he gets his own special formation, replete with cultists and Rubric Marines--it would be very different say to if we introduced a character and archetype in the actual Tzeentch list where he is focused more upon the scheming aspect, while Ahriman is focused more upon the anarchy and exploitation of knowledge he requires in the main book and Ahriman isn't limited to just Tzeentchian "Lore", but knows how to exploit all the Ruinous Powers to his own advantage.


Ok, that's fine, but as he is written now, he is a Tzeentch Sorcerer, even if he is only a Tzeentch sorcerer because it suits his current needs.

Kanluwen wrote:It comes down to splitting hairs but I'd feel more comfortable doing Tzeentch as not an organization that was forced into Tzeentch's grasp like the Thousand Sons were, instead focusing upon those who go willingly seeking the Changer of Ways.


And, again, that's fine, but as it is written currently the 1KSons are the Tzeentch-aligned legion.

Kanluwen wrote:I should also add that I've been thinking a bit more about how I'd do 'something' to tie the various books for the Loyalists together, and that would be one section shared amongst all of them...and even adapted for all the races, given some brainstorming.


I had an idea ages ago about something called Heraldic Titles, essentially taking those 'Master of the Fleet', 'Master of the Watch' and other various titles most Marine Chapters have (in one form or another) and turning them into character 'packages' that give them set Wargear (ie. 'Traditional' weapons) and a special rule or two for +X points.

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Gathering the Informations.

I should just have said that I just have a hard time holding the Thousand Sons up as an 'exemplar' of the Tzeentchian warbands, if only because we've not seen anything else to indicate that the Rubric Marines are having numbers added to their ranks.
   
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Kanluwen wrote:The Rubric Marines, as it stand now, have no real organization nor any motives. They're reliant entirely upon the Sorcerers of the Cabals and the like.

To use a hesitant metaphor: they might as well be Tyranids guided by the Hive Mind, for all the interaction they currently have.

That's way it is in the current fluff, but I heard that in the next codex the new fluff is going to have them rise up and turn against the sorcerers. They will have much more personality (they will have hobbies like gardening and stamp collecting) and the sorcerers will actually be sorcerer shards which are controlled by the rubric marines. No foolies.
   
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:The Rubric Marines, as it stand now, have no real organization nor any motives. They're reliant entirely upon the Sorcerers of the Cabals and the like.

To use a hesitant metaphor: they might as well be Tyranids guided by the Hive Mind, for all the interaction they currently have.

That's way it is in the current fluff, but I heard that in the next codex the new fluff is going to have them rise up and turn against the sorcerers. They will have much more personality (they will have hobbies like gardening and stamp collecting) and the sorcerers will actually be sorcerer shards which are controlled by the rubric marines. No foolies.

I'm gonna a go with stupidly sarcastic. No one is slow witted enough to take this bait.
   
 
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