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im2randomghgh wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:I want a codex for chapters that don't follow the codex astrates. that would be awesome.

Ion Hands.

No. Most Notably, Black Templars.
For chapters that have competely different things.
Iron hands do not stray the from the codex at all.
We are talking about loyalist chapters not traitor btw.

I personally believe the space wolves would be the most notable exception.

The space wolves are nothing like the Black Templars. The Space wolves really only get their codex because i don't want fanboys at my door with a fake spear of russ and an attempted murder.

So, I guess Black Templars got their own codex because people bashed down Nottingham with the Templar Cross, DA because they all sat outside in robes and prayed, and BA because their nipples were so many in number, that they blocked out the sun?

Asherian Command wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:I want a codex for chapters that don't follow the codex astrates. that would be awesome.

Ion Hands.

No. Most Notably, Black Templars.
For chapters that have competely different things.
Iron hands do not stray the from the codex at all.
We are talking about loyalist chapters not traitor btw.

I personally believe the space wolves would be the most notable exception.

The space wolves are nothing like the Black Templars. The Space wolves really only get their codex because i don't want fanboys at my door with a fake spear of russ and an attempted murder.

Except their are more codex-deviant than the Black Templars. They RIDE WOLVES INTO BATTLE. They TURN INTO WOLVES. They actually use DIFFERENT WEAPONS. They are many times more codex deviant than the templars.

Chowderhead wrote:So, I guess Black Templars got their own codex because people bashed down Nottingham with the Templar Cross...

Actually, Black Templars got their own codex because Codex: Armageddon gave them hidden powerfists in 3rd edition when everyone else still had targetable vet srgs.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:So, I guess Black Templars got their own codex because people bashed down Nottingham with the Templar Cross...

Actually, Black Templars got their own codex because Codex: Armageddon gave them hidden powerfists in 3rd edition when everyone else still had targetable vet srgs.

LYSANDER!!!

So, the major differences between the Vanilla Codex and DAs/BTs are...?

I can personally see the Iron Hands being structured as differently as the SpezhWoolvs.

I like the way the vanilla codex works. Some special characters could have the ability to change some equipment on certain squads to make them more chapter spesific for example. That might make it possible to put all the marines in one book... except for the grey knights. They can and should keep their own book.

gaovinni wrote:I like the way the vanilla codex works. Some special characters could have the ability to change some equipment on certain squads to make them more chapter spesific for example. That might make it possible to put all the marines in one book... except for the Daemon Hunters. They can and should keep their own book.

Fixed. It was heresy before.

im2randomghgh wrote:

gaovinni wrote:I like the way the vanilla codex works. Some special characters could have the ability to change some equipment on certain squads to make them more chapter spesific for example. That might make it possible to put all the marines in one book... except for the Daemon Hunters. They can and should keep their own book.

Fixed. It was heresy before.

Ah. Thank you.

Deadshot wrote:It is not that they are popular to start with. It spawns from Vulkan's awesome rules, and many people build a Salamander list/army to match.

Have to agree here. Could count on one hand the number of local Salamanders forces I had seen in the previous 15 years before the latest SM codex came out. Now with those Vulkan special rules for flamers and meltas they are every where.

Skriker

I would have to say a codex that accuratly describes the Alpha Legion or the Sould Drinkers. I am under the impression that both these chapters are still loyal to the emperor but are slightly chaos tainted, the alpha legion more than the soul drinkers.

UNREALPwnage wrote:I would have to say a codex that accuratly describes the Alpha Legion or the Sould Drinkers. I am under the impression that both these chapters are still loyal to the emperor but are slightly chaos tainted, the alpha legion more than the soul drinkers.

But if they made an Alpha Legion book (which they should), they couldn't call it Codex. The Alphas didn't like them.

Traits.

Crusader like adjustes the army to be BT like.
Clan adjusts it to be IH, Salamanders like
Emo vampire adjusts to BA, Ravenguard like
Closetemo for DA like
Codex for UM, IF, etc

Gets rid of special character stigma, give each triat a set advatages and flaws set in stone and not abusable. Oh trait names are WiP

Traits were and still are terrible for representing Chapters. They're fine for representing Companies or "Mary Sue" forces--but by their very nature they will not necessarily be expansive enough to showcase those forces which we have descriptions of. Heck, if you do it right you could maybe give generic characters a 'Trait' system which lets them influence how their army list is built with a trade-off list.

Characters are a good way to add flavor, given that characters are characters for a reason--namely that they have done something 'heroic'. They have a set history, they have set ways of operating, etc.

Ideally, if Games Workshop were calling me and saying "Hey Kan, make a good way for us to stop making Chapter Codices"...I'd reply with "Okay, but it'll still be more than one book and I want to do the same thing with Chaos."

Why would I say that?

Because cramming a practically innumerable setup for Chapters into one book is ridiculous.

My 'Ideal Setup' is this:
Book I: "Angels of Death". This will be your "Codex" Chapters. Your Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Ultramarines and their Successors, etc. Two or three "major" characters for each of the Chapters outlined within, with a small "Chapter" section of unique weapons and/or units or formations associated with those characters.

Book II: "Savage Faith". This will be your "non-Codex" Chapters which focus mostly on close combat. Your Blood Angels and their Successors, the Space Wolves, and the Black Templars. Again, follow the setup of the above.

Book III: "Angels of Wrath". This will be your "Close to but Not Quite" Codex Chapters. Iron Hands,White Scars, and both the Raven Guard and Dark Angels along with their Successors. Same setup in regards to characters, formations, etc.

I think Chaos would end up with four books in my way of thinking, but I've not done too much brainstorming on them...yet.

Where are the fething Salamanders? Or Angry marines?

Why would anyone want Angry Marines?

Anyways. Salamanders can fall into either AoW or AoD, imo.

I notice you left out the Dark Angels in your examples Kan.

I did. The annoying thing is I'd originally written them right after "Raven Guard+Dark Angels and their Successors".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's fixed now.

Sorry, I thought it was an intentional omission. My mistake. The only problem I have with your idea is the Savage Faith Codex.

Space Wolves - Non-Codex Chapter with unique units.
Black Templars - Non-Codex Chapter with a unique structure, if not unique units (they still have bikes, Assault Squads, etc.).
Blood Angels - Codex Chapter with three different units (DC, Sang Priests & Sang Guard).

I just don't think a 'Chaper section' is enough to cover the BT's and the Woofs, and I don't think the BA's are different enough from a Codex Chapter to warrant being separate from the rest. They'd fit better in the third Codex.

I agree a bit that the Blood Angels are not different enough from a Codex Chapter to warrant their own book...but at the same time, I think that if the Blood Angels(and their Successors like the Flesh Tearers and Soul Drinkers) were to be in Angels of Wrath--the book would be kinda cramped.

With having the Blood Angels in "Savage Faith", you've got a kind of "Generic Close Combat Chapter" if that makes sense. Taking specific traits on your generic characters(or one of the special characters within the Blood Angels and their Successor's list for that matter) allows you to field either side of the Sons of Sanguinius.

The calm, collected warrior-poets...or the savage and bloodthirsty warriors who know their death is upon them.

So you’d still link army types to Special Characters? Or characters in general? Why can't an army just be an army. Why must everything stem from the HQ choice?

It doesn't have to. Legion rules godammit! Your HQ takes the rule, it unlocks whatever the Character would. Some Special Characters and HQ's come with the rule already, some HQ's can't take it. You can apply whatever constraints or extras you want. Yeah, its still connected with the HQ, but it's a lot more open than "you have to take named Character X to play Legion Y".

H.B.M.C. wrote:So you’d still link army types to Special Characters? Or characters in general? Why can't an army just be an army. Why must everything stem from the HQ choice?

Not entirely to Special Characters, if that makes sense.

Under my "vision", special characters would have kind of a "signature" formation that they're famed for and receive a bonus for.

To use an example: Belial, Master of the Deathwing, and a high-ranking member of the Dark Angels.
We all know him, we love him, and we know how he operates.

If you have Belial leading your force, your Terminator squads are Troops choices and gain access to a specific piece of wargear associated with him within the Wargear slot. In my case, I imagine him as leading the most veteran members of the Deathwing, those who would be leading Companies into battle if they'd not decided to stay in the Deathwing under his command. No Storm Bolters and Powerfists for these lads, they bear weapons with a lineage stretching back centuries if not longer. Relic Powerswords and Master Crafted Combi-Weapons
as their 'standard' wargear. This does not come cheaply, however. Belial's forces are predicated upon striking hard and striking at the right moment. You need to have a Teleport Homer upon the field, whether it be on a vehicle or purchased by itself as a piece that 'counts as' Troops and is deployed upon the field but cannot be directly targeted.

That does not mean though that "In order to field Terminators as Troops, you need to pay for Belial".
You can take a generic Captain or other HQ and Honor Guard in Terminator Armor and for something like 30 points can opt to take Terminators as Troops.

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:So you’d still link army types to Special Characters? Or characters in general? Why can't an army just be an army. Why must everything stem from the HQ choice?

Not entirely to Special Characters, if that makes sense.

Under my "vision", special characters would have kind of a "signature" formation that they're famed for and receive a bonus for.

To use an example: Belial, Master of the Deathwing, and a high-ranking member of the Dark Angels.
We all know him, we love him, and we know how he operates.

If you have Belial leading your force, your Terminator squads are Troops choices and gain access to a specific piece of wargear associated with him within the Wargear slot. In my case, I imagine him as leading the most veteran members of the Deathwing, those who would be leading Companies into battle if they'd not decided to stay in the Deathwing under his command. No Storm Bolters and Powerfists for these lads, they bear weapons with a lineage stretching back centuries if not longer. Relic Powerswords and Master Crafted Combi-Weapons
as their 'standard' wargear. This does not come cheaply, however. Belial's forces are predicated upon striking hard and striking at the right moment. You need to have a Teleport Homer upon the field, whether it be on a vehicle or purchased by itself as a piece that 'counts as' Troops and is deployed upon the field but cannot be directly targeted.

That does not mean though that "In order to field Terminators as Troops, you need to pay for Belial".
You can take a generic Captain or other HQ and Honor Guard in Terminator Armor and for something like 30 points can opt to take Terminators as Troops.

I love the idea, DIY would definitely get a boost out of that. How easily would it be to balance those different "Legion" rules? And, would it become convoluted trying to sort all of them out?

Kanluwen wrote:Under my "vision", special characters would have kind of a "signature" formation that they're famed for and receive a bonus for.

Special character ‘signature’ armies. Now that idea I like. It’s much better to take Vulkan to play his signature army than having to take Vulkan in order to play Sallies. So it’s a bit like how Farsight had his special bodyguard, only expanded to cover the entire army.

You could apply that almost anywhere, eg. Anyone can play a hot-blooded Farsight Enclave Tau army, but Farsight himself has a special elite Cadre of troops that builds on the standard Farsight Enclave list. Captain Sicarius has his special formation (the one they sold as a big no-discount-included army deal a while back), and so on.

What exactly is a signature Vulkan army? And how would it be different from a Sallies army?

They should just divorce the army-wide special rules from the special character. Just allow a bunch of different options for Combat Tactics (e.g. the standard Ultramarine type we have now, the White Scars hit & run type, a Raven Guard deep striking type, etc.). Tie them to the HQ - the list you choose from depends on which HQs you take (e.g. chapter master, chaplain, librarian etc.). They don't even have to be explicit about which version of Combat Tactics goes with which chapter - simply include some chapter-specific special characters which come with specific choices to give players a "hint".

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Under my "vision", special characters would have kind of a "signature" formation that they're famed for and receive a bonus for.

Special character ‘signature’ armies. Now that idea I like. It’s much better to take Vulkan to play his signature army than having to take Vulkan in order to play Sallies. So it’s a bit like how Farsight had his special bodyguard, only expanded to cover the entire army.

You could apply that almost anywhere, eg. Anyone can play a hot-blooded Farsight Enclave Tau army, but Farsight himself has a special elite Cadre of troops that builds on the standard Farsight Enclave list. Captain Sicarius has his special formation (the one they sold as a big no-discount-included army deal a while back), and so on.

Yeah, that's kind of how I've been thinking about it.

Salamanders are a Chapter that's close to the Codex(their only real trait was that they had really finely crafted weapons, a knack for using flame and melta weaponry, and what amounted to Slow and Purposeful), but with Vulkan(their Master of the Forge) it becomes a radically different army.

What would I like to see? A short supplement book for Space Marines containing rules for certain chapters (for example you could buy x ability for xx points, but if you do you can't use x unit, or you lose combat tactics). It could also contain new units for certain chapters, and contain fluff for these chapters.

The next space marine chapter to get a codex should be all of Chaos. /thread.