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Melissia wrote:

Gree wrote:But not something normall indicative of actual combat performance in normal situations.

Yeah it is. Covering fire for a flanking maneuver. Completely normal tactic. Though usually it's not a third party providing covering fire, but that's not really a relevant fact.

Again, the Marine was only held off by someone noted to be an exceptional individual. Not a normal indicative at all.

Gree wrote:And then for all those others bits you did imply it.

Because your judgement is utterly infallible, right?

Yes, I am.

fine you prove it.

It is, that is exactly why your examples are silly.

Because you're the infallible judge of what is and isn't proper in 40K, right?

Once again, he’s not dead.

And once again, that's because Space Marines are skilled fighters whilst in a coma right?

Once again, I did not claim they were immune to bolter fire. Find me a quote of me saying that please.

you implied it. HEy that works both ways doesnt it? Or maybe I could try "your argument is silly, therefore invalid. No wonder you find those so useful.

I would assume a Space Marine, with their enhanced cognitive abilities and senses would have a much easier time of calculating that angle than a normal human would.

And I should take your assumptions as fact why? Remember you're the one insisting my evidence is silly, act of plot, or otherwise inadmissable based on your own opinion.

Oh yes and "they get distracted in the middle of battle to the point they would stand in place long enough to get targeted by massive amounts of gunfire." I guess they're all super duper alert and reactive, but have short attention spans.

I’m not.

Funny, you seem to be arguing as if your opinions carry the weight of fact here. (EG your assumptions about the supar-predictive abilities of Space Marines.)

I am however pointing out the flaws in your argument and examples.

Because you're the infallible judge of what is right and wrong in a 40K debate, right?

How does this contradict my point again?

Because it shows you adopt the most ludicrous assumptions to prove your point? You know, like the "space marines get distracted so they can get plastered by huge quantities of gunfire" argument. I guess the Imperium creates these Marines that are super tough, fast, strong... but they forgot to give them the ability to stay focus on task and not get easily distracted, or something.

I’m pretty sure sixty autocannons could put out quite a bit of lead.

Proof?

I don’t believe I ever gave a concrete number on the amount of autocannons. But since Pavonis is an industrial planet I would assume they are well-equipped.

Again I love how you try to pass off your opinion as proof here. And this is why I keep accusing you of trying ot be an infallible arbiter of what is and isn't cannon, in case you're wondering.

Not at all.

In which case, the amount of lead per marine goes down quite a bit, wouldn't you say? Especially given your claimed super-duper bullet dodge abilities.

So if my cousin charges directly into my knee that’s a glancing hit?

.. do you even know what conservation of momentum is?

After seeing that stream of technobabble I have no idea what you just said. Plain English please.

To put it another way. 200-400 kg*m/s of momentum would impart a velocity of between 2.5-5 m/s to a 80 kg person. In rough terms? imagine getting tackled by a guy running at oh 10-12 mph. Considering how large and bulky Space Marine armor is, how many hits like that do you think a Space Marine can take and not crush someone underneath them?

Evidently as the example shows, all of it.

So.. you just cited the same quote that is contention as proof you are right? Yet again you reinforce my belief you think you're some infallible arbiter here. And you're not convicing me that you're at all interested in debating fairly.

No, I point out the flaws and I deal with them.

No, you haven't. You invent reasons why they don't apply by your own judgement and then treat that as having "dealt with them." Again this is precisely why I keep accusing you of being "infallible arbiter". You keep trying to pass off your opinion as if it were canon fact. And at the same time, dismissing your opponents arguments as invalid.. because you say so. Yeah that sounds perfectly fair to me!

You could and I would point out why you are wrong.

Because you're infallibly correct, right?

Never said that. I just point out the obvious.

How is that different from claiming that your opinion is clearly the right one because you think it is? "Obvious" does not constitute "fact", although there are lots of people in America who think that.

Why should it?

I asked you. You're the one treating your opinion as fact after all.

Based on common sense.

Whose definition of common sense, pray tell? Yours? Again you point to your own opinion as being the solely accurate benchmark for how things should and shouldn't go. and this is correct because.. you say its common sense. Again, how is this not "infallible arbiter" behaviour?

So in other words you are going to ragequit then right?

I could. Or I could just go on pointing out that you keep insisting you're infallible!

All it took was a single meltagun shot. Jurgen could probably have taken the guy even without Cain's help.

Melissia wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote:Melissa believes that Space Marines are around the equivalent of glorified Guardsmen

No I don't, and I've already specifically said otherwise several times in this thread, so screw you.

My position is that "they are not infallible gods, they're supremely competent soldiers with biological enhancements".

Yet Veteran Guardsmen can achieve the same level of sensual acuity of a genetically engineered super human that was miticulously designed for War from his DNA up, whose senses have been deliberately enhanced beyound normal human parameters?

KplKeegan wrote:Yet Veteran Guardsmen can achieve the same level of sensual acuity of a genetically engineered super human that was miticulously designed for War from his DNA up, whose senses have been deliberately enhanced beyound normal human parameters?

Yes.

Because "normal human parameters" does not equate to "beyond the highest human parameters". Certainly I did not deny that Marines have an advantage. Their biology is their primary advantage, and their armor a secondary one, over non-augmented soldiers.

And as far as biology goes, it's raw strength and toughness where Marines are beyond anything humans can possibly reach. In everything else, they're essentially at the upper limit of human achievement.

Which means humans can possibly match them in those areas. Or exceed them even (especially in areas of raw intelligence and charisma, which the Marines do not have enhancements for but instead make use of hypnotherapy to enhance, which humans can also undergo).

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because your judgement is utterly infallible, right?

Not infallible, but generally correct.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
fine you prove it.

Okay, we have the example of Ragnar taking a heavy stubber round to the head.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because you're the infallible judge of what is and isn't proper in 40K, right?

No, I just have common sense on my side.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
And once again, that's because Space Marines are skilled fighters whilst in a coma right?

Once again, he is not dead.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
you implied it. HEy that works both ways doesnt it?

No I did not. Give me a quote were I implied it.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
And I should take your assumptions as fact why?

Because we already have statements to that effect. So it’s not an assumption.

The 5th Edition Codex says a Marine has ‘’battle skills and faculty of reason that far surpass any mortal man.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Remember you're the one insisting my evidence is silly, act of plot, or otherwise inadmissable based on your own opinion.

I have already pointed out the reasons. It’s not my fault if you can’t recognize that.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Oh yes and "they get distracted in the middle of battle to the point they would stand in place long enough to get targeted by massive amounts of gunfire." I guess they're all super duper alert and reactive, but have short attention spans.

Do you understand what plot-induced stupidity is?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because you're the infallible judge of what is right and wrong in a 40K debate, right?

Nope, never claimed that.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because it shows you adopt the most ludicrous assumptions to prove your point?

No, I only adopt what GW puts down.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Proof?

5th Edtiion Guard Codex.

‘’Autocannons fire large caliber, high velocity shells at a prodigious rate.’’

Take one autocannon and multiple it by a few dozen and you have quite a storm of lead.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Again I love how you try to pass off your opinion as proof here.

When did I claim it was proof?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
And this is why I keep accusing you of trying ot be an infallible arbiter of what is and isn't cannon, in case you're wondering.

Where at all in that quote did I claim I was an infallible arbiter?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
In which case, the amount of lead per marine goes down quite a bit, wouldn't you say? Especially given your claimed super-duper bullet dodge abilities.

Why would we have any reason to doubt they are not well-equipped?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
.. do you even know what conservation of momentum is?

Not sure how this is relevant.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
To put it another way. 200-400 kg*m/s of momentum would impart a velocity of between 2.5-5 m/s to a 80 kg person. In rough terms? imagine getting tackled by a guy running at oh 10-12 mph. Considering how large and bulky Space Marine armor is, how many hits like that do you think a Space Marine can take and not crush someone underneath them?

Going by Nightbringer a good number evidently.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

So.. you just cited the same quote that is contention as proof you are right? Yet again you reinforce my belief you think you're some infallible arbiter here. And you're not convicing me that you're at all interested in debating fairly.

So in other words you are content to simply ignore examples then?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
No, you haven't. You invent reasons why they don't apply by your own judgement and then treat that as having "dealt with them."

No, I just point out logical reason why they don’t apply.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Again this is precisely why I keep accusing you of being "infallible arbiter". You keep trying to pass off your opinion as if it were canon fact.

No I do not. Show me where I’ve done that.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
And at the same time, dismissing your opponents arguments as invalid.. because you say so. Yeah that sounds perfectly fair to me!

Finally you come to your senses

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because you're infallibly correct, right?

Never claimed that.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
How is that different from claiming that your opinion is clearly the right one because you think it is? "Obvious" does not constitute "fact", although there are lots of people in America who think that.

Then it’s a good thing I’m not expressing my opinion but rather facts and reasonable conclusions.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
I asked you. You're the one treating your opinion as fact after all.

Not at all.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Whose definition of common sense, pray tell? Yours?

What the average person would consider common sense.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Again you point to your own opinion as being the solely accurate benchmark for how things should and shouldn't go. and this is correct because.. you say its common sense. Again, how is this not "infallible arbiter" behaviour?

Because I never pointed to my opinion as being the sole accurate benchmark of things?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
I could. Or I could just go on pointing out that you keep insisting you're infallible!

And I could point out that is an erroneous assumption and you hav’t offered a very good argument so far.

Give me a quote of me saying I'm an infallible arbiter. If you cannot then I will dismiss your claims as false.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:All it took was a single meltagun shot. Jurgen could probably have taken the guy even without Cain's help.

Doubtful, given how superior an Astartes is to a normal human.

Melissia wrote:And as far as biology goes, it's raw strength and toughness where Marines are beyond anything humans can possibly reach. In everything else, they're essentially at the upper limit of human achievement.

Proof?

Deathwatch the RPG, and Inquisitor the RPG. The only (ONLY) insurmountable advantage a marine outside of power armor has over a human are his strength and toughness bonuses. Adepts and techpriests are at the same XP levels smarter, scum are more charismatic, psykers have stronger willpower, etc. The marine's power armor provides another huge advantage, because of its high quality combined with the black carapace, making Marines easily capable of destroying unprepared acolytes, but prepared acolytes can do a lot of damage or even win over an equal number of marines.

As an aside, compare these:


The former is a marine's reaction speed, the latter is a veteran guardsman's reaction speed.

Melissia wrote:Deathwatch the RPG, and Inquisitor the RPG.

As an aside, compare these:

Spoiler:

Space Wolf pg84 wrote:With a roar of incoherent fury Strybjorn threw himself forward, bringing the blade arcing down towards the sergeant's unprotected head. Given the weapon's weight and Strybjorn's obvious strength and speed if it connected there was no way the sergeant could survive. And it seemed to be about to connect. The blade moved through a whistling arc and the sergeant made no attempt to deflect it or get out of the way. Then suddenly, just as it seemed his skull would be smashed, Hakon was no longer there. He simply stepped back and the blade passed through where he had been less than a tenth of a heartbeat before

Traitor's Hand pg31 wrote:To no one's suprise except Asmar and Beije, their regimental champion was promptly and informally challeneged to an impromptu bout the next time he wandered into the recreation deck. I have to repor t with a certain degree of satisfaction that he was subsequently pounded flat by Corporal MAgot, a cheerfully sociopathic young woman who barely came up to his chin. (Which made little difference, as it only took her about a tenth of a second to bring it down to the level of her knee.)

The former is a marine's reaction speed, the latter is a veteran guardsman's reaction speed.

What makes you think the Marine was even trying? We have a mircosecond reaction feat for Ragnar.

“As the shell seared past, Rangar threw himself flat behind the low pile of rubble trying to make himself as small a target as possible. That had been close, too close. The shot had almost parted his hair. Only his lightning quick reflexes, and the microsecond's warning provided by his superhuman senses had got him out of the way. If he had ducked half a heartbeat later, his head would have been an exploding fountain of gore and bone.” / The Space Wolf Omnibus, p.269 - **

And then this:

“Transhuman dread. Aximand had heard iterators talk of the condition. He’d heard descriptions of it from regular Army officers too. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing: taller and broader than a man could ever be, armoured like a demigod. The singularity of purpose was self-evident. An Adeptus Astartes was designed to fight and kill anything that didn’t annihilate it first. If you saw an Adeptus Astartes, you knew you were in trouble. The appearance alone cowed you with fear.

But to see one move. Apparently that was the real thing. Nothing human-shaped should be so fast, so lithe, so powerful, especially not anything in excess of two metres tall and carrying more armour than four normal men could lift. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing, but the moving fact of one was quite another. The psychologists called it transhuman dread. It froze a man, stuck him to the ground, caused his mind to lock up, made him lose control of bladder and bowel. Something huge and warlike gave pause: something huge and warlike and moving with the speed of a striking snake, that was when you knew that gods moved amongst men, and that there existed a scale of strength and speed beyond anything mortal, and that you were about to die and, if you were really lucking, there might be just enough time to piss yourself first.” / Age of Darkness, p.163 - **

“They came out from behind the trees around her, two, then three, then five, all told: five primuls in a circle around her, their eyes like murder for what she had done to their kin.

They threw themselves at her.

For many years afterwards, for the rest of her life, in fact, Perdet Suiton Antoni often wondered how none of them heard him coming. He was just there, suddenly. How could something that big move so fast and so silently, and appear without notice? Between the moment when the primuls began to spring and the moment when they would have fallen upon her, the giant appeared and interposed himself between her and the foul, pouncing creatures. It was almost as if he had stopped the flow of time and edited himself into that particular frame of it.

What followed lasted about three seconds.

The giant had his combat shield locked on his left arm and his short, heavy sword in his right fist. As he arrived, he was swinging the shield out, and smashed it flat into the nearest, leaping primul, shattering bones and deflecting the thing away. Wheeling, he hacked his sword clean through the neck and shoulder of the second, casting out a shower of dark red blood, and then ripped backwards low, cutting through the corpse's thighs even as it toppled, so that the whole mass of the primul folded into a collapsed heap. The third, coming in at the giant's left flank, held some kind of pistol weapon, an ugly, spiky device that spat hard, sharp bullets of buzzing metal. The giant turned, raising his left forearm upright from the elbow, and guarded his face with the combat shield in time to switch the buzzing projectiles away. They struck the shield with loud, angry cracks. One embedded itself there. Another bounced off and decapitated a nearby sapling. As the third bullet hit, the giant deftly tilted his arm very slightly, and ricocheted it off sideways straight into the face of the fourth primul. The creature's head split like a blood-fruit and the primul was savagely thumped backwards, off the ground, its legs wide. It landed, spread-eagled, on its back.

Before the third primul could fire its pistol again, the giant whipped his right arm over and threw his sword like a lance. It struck the primul through the chest, lifting it off its feet with the force of the throw, and impaled it to an olive tree's trunk, its feet dangling and twitching.

The remaining primul, wicked blades in both hands, was dancing round behind the giant. With his free right hand, the giant grabbed the heavy firearm that had been knocking at his hip on its long strap, and shot the primul twice, in the face and the chest. The double boom of the massive gun was so loud it made Antoni cry out and cover her ears. The force of the shots tore the primul apart, and slammed its mangled body across the grove. It bounced sideways off a tree trunk and fell into the bracken. Silence, except for the gurgle of leaking blood.” / Brothers of the Snake, p.63-65 - **

Can a veteran Guardsman do that?

Is it really fair to compare the stats from two wholly different books side by side? They were made by the same RPG company but still...

BrainDeleted wrote:Is it really fair to compare the stats from two wholly different books side by side? They were made by the same RPG company but still...

They are susposedly taking place in the same fictional universe so yes.

Melissia wrote:

And as far as biology goes, it's raw strength and toughness where Marines are beyond anything humans can possibly reach. In everything else, they're essentially at the upper limit of human achievement.

Don't forget to mention a Space Marines extra heart, his extra lung, the glands introduced into his body that breaks down toxins and poisons that he both inhales and injests, or his extra dense bone structure, his beltcher's gland, the list continues, where ordinary Humans will never evolve those organs.

Melissia wrote:Which means humans can possibly match them in those areas.

No. This is just flat wrong.

Gree wrote:What makes you think the Marine was even trying?

Oh, the old classic fanboy standby. "He only did so badly cause he wasn't trying!"

Reminds me of the old days in grade school, listening to kids argue about their favorite comic book hero. Except we're both (I assume) full grown adults, so I'd expect better arguments.

Well, from other people anyway. I think I'm gonna go play a game instead of talking to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrainDeleted wrote:Is it really fair to compare the stats from two wholly different books side by side? They were made by the same RPG company but still...

Sure, they're made to be able to rp side by side, although they admit that the Deathwatch characters are quite a few steps above DH/RT characters for the most part, especially when it comes to equipment (they actually had to tone down the Deathwatch equipment in an Errata because it was TOO powerful-- basically the original equipment was movie marine while the updated equipment is closer to lore).

Melissia wrote:

Gree wrote:What makes you think the Marine was even trying?

Oh, the old classic fanboy standby. "He only did so badly cause he wasn't trying!"

Reminds me of the old days in grade school, listening to kids argue about their favorite comic book hero. Except we're both (I assume) full grown adults, so I'd expect better arguments.

Well, from other people anyway. I think I'm gonna go play a game instead of talking to you.

And you ignore the context of the scene (Hakon showing a rookie his place) and the other examples that give Marines far better reaction times than a tenth of a second. (One even in the same book series)

Very well then. Concession accepted.

I mean, they're made for RP purposes. It would be no fun for a couple of Dark Heresy players to get shredded like so much wet cardboard by one guy playing as a Marine from Deathwatch because he was feeling randy.

BrainDeleted wrote:I mean, they're made for RP purposes. It would be no fun for ten Dark Heresy players to get shredded like so much wet cardboard by one guy playing as a Marine from Deathwatch because he was feeling randy.

My explorator killed several marines through proper application of a meltagun mechadendrite and a plasmagun...

Course she got rather shot up in the process, but she did have the advantage of also having power armor, in Dragonskin, the techpriest power armor.

Thing is, it's not impossible for a competent human to kill a marine, it never has been. It's just that ideally marines do not fight in situations where this is likely. Except in black library books.

Gree wrote:
Not infallible, but generally correct.

Except you appeal to vague concepts like common sense. Which basically amounts to.. your own infallible authority.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Okay, we have the example of Ragnar taking a heavy stubber round to the head.

There we go again. Your opinion is fact!

No, I just have common sense on my side.

It's actually the same thing, since I'm pretty sure when you say "common sense" its by how you define it. Which means.. you're claiming infallible authority.

Once again, he is not dead.

Keep telling yourself that like it matters.

No I did not. Give me a quote were I implied it.

It's implicit in the arguments you're making. It's common sense.

Because we already have statements to that effect. So it’s not an assumption.

Circular logic.

The 5th Edition Codex says a Marine has ‘’battle skills and faculty of reason that far surpass any mortal man.

Wow, that tells us alot. Not. But hey, you've got "common sense" on your side, so who needs to be precise?

I have already pointed out the reasons. It’s not my fault if you can’t recognize that.

Because you're infallible.

Do you understand what plot-induced stupidity is?

It's an excuse for you to get out of having to deal with something you don't like. Just like appealing to common sense is. Because you're infallible.

Nope, never claimed that.

Sure ya did. you appealed to common sense. Clearly you know more than anyone else.

No, I only adopt what GW puts down.

Except for the bits you dismiss as plot induced stupdiity, outliers, or generally anyhting that doesn't suit your POV, that is.

5th Edtiion Guard Codex.

Take one autocannon and multiple it by a few dozen and you have quite a storm of lead.

Wow, that proves.. nothing.

When did I claim it was proof?

common sense.

Where at all in that quote did I claim I was an infallible arbiter?

When you started dismissing other people's arguments becuaes it doesn't conform to your opinion on the basis of.. what you thought was appropriate. It was reinforced when you started invoking common sense.

Why would we have any reason to doubt they are not well-equipped?

Common sense.

Not sure how this is relevant.

Common sense.

Going by Nightbringer a good number evidently.

bzzt. Try again.

So in other words you are content to simply ignore examples then?

Hey, I'm not the one who involved excuses liek common sense or plot induced stupidity. Just because I don't accept your interpretation of matters doesn't mean I'm ignoring evidence (unlike some I could name.)

No I do not. Show me where I’ve done that.

you appealed to common sense.

Finally you come to your senses

What, that you can't carry off your argument without treating your speculation as proof? Yeah, it becme obvious pretty quickly once you started invoking common sense.

Never claimed that.

Then why did you appeal to common sense?

What the average person would consider common sense.

Define the average person. And then explain how that isn't dependent upon your judgement being accurate to be true.

Because I never pointed to my opinion as being the sole accurate benchmark of things?

You appealed to common sense.

And I could point out that is an erroneous assumption and you hav’t offered a very good argument so far.

I can say the same of you. Hey it works both ways!

Give me a quote of me saying I'm an infallible arbiter. If you cannot then I will dismiss your claims as false.

This one works as well. You're claiming that you're so correct you can just declare someone to be right and wrong in the debate. Also common sense.

And I'm going to beat you to it. I declare your claims false and I am correct, based on common sense. Therefore I no longer have to pursue this argument. I'm done

But hey, I'm sure sinc you are so infallible, you'll just take the last post to declare victory.. becaus eas we know the last guy who posts is the one whose always right. Or maybe you'll just declare I "ragequitted" or something. Up to you

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Except you appeal to vague concepts like common sense. Which basically amounts to.. your own infallible authority.

Not at all, it’s common sense.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
There we go again. Your opinion is fact!

No GW’s statement is fact, unless you are claiming Bill King never wrote that.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
It's actually the same thing, since I'm pretty sure when you say "common sense" its by how you define it. Which means.. you're claiming infallible authority.

Not at all.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
It's implicit in the arguments you're making. It's common sense.

No it is not.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because you're infallible.

Thank you for the compliment but I’m not.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Wow, that proves.. nothing.

So you ignore another GW source.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

common sense.

How is it common sense if I never claimed it was proof.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
When you started dismissing other people's arguments becuaes it doesn't conform to your opinion on the basis of.. what you thought was appropriate. It was reinforced when you started invoking common sense.

So in other words you can’t exactly provide a quite.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Common sense.

How is it common sense that a PDF regiment on an industrial world would not be well-equipped.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Common sense.

Mind explaining how?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
bzzt. Try again.

So you can’t offer a good argument evidently.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Hey, I'm not the one who involved excuses liek common sense or plot induced stupidity. Just because I don't accept your interpretation of matters doesn't mean I'm ignoring evidence (unlike some I could name.)

So in other words you are content to ignore GW examples. Arguing with you is quite impossible.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
you appealed to common sense.

……and?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Then why did you appeal to common sense?

Because we are at an impass? What is the problem with that?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
I can say the same of you. Hey it works both ways!

Can you support that with a good reason as to why you think common sense is applicable.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
This one works as well. You're claiming that you're so correct you can just declare someone to be right and wrong in the debate. Also common sense.

And you evidently cannot support your claim with an actual source.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
And I'm going to beat you to it. I declare your claims false and I am correct, based on common sense. Therefore I no longer have to pursue this argument. I'm done

But hey, I'm sure sinc you are so infallible, you'll just take the last post to declare victory.. becaus eas we know the last guy who posts is the one whose always right. Or maybe you'll just declare I "ragequitted" or something. Up to you

Okay then, concession accepted. But this is not the first time you’ve done this. You turned tail on Warseer when I pointed out the flaws in your argument.

Melissia wrote:Sure, they're made to be able to rp side by side, although they admit that the Deathwatch characters are quite a few steps above DH/RT characters for the most part, especially when it comes to equipment (they actually had to tone down the Deathwatch equipment in an Errata because it was TOO powerful-- basically the original equipment was movie marine while the updated equipment is closer to lore).

Movie Marines are lore Marines.

How many examples would you like? Pick a number, they're out there. Discounting the bulk of Games Workshop and Black Library fluff in order to further your own agenda is...about what I've come to expect from you, now that I think about it/

I'm sorry, but the OP seems to be Astartes don't cut it as Special Forces because individual marines aren't killing Titans all the time. Ok then...

Seaward wrote:Movie Marines are lore Marines.

GW admits that many of its own books are basically written as if propaganda.

This is why Deathwatch is so useful, as it is designed (by Andy Hoare and others from GW in concert with FFG) to let you play as an actual Marine based on the lore of 40k. Dark Heresy was also useful-- originally created by GW, it was then handed off to FFG afterwards after a convoluted series of events in its launch cycle involving multiple cancellations and un-cancellations. DH and DW are not perfect by any means as they make concessions for the game, but they ARE for the most part internally consistent, which means for comparison purposes they're generally better than Black Library.

Melissia wrote:GW admits that many of its own books are basically written as if propaganda.

Proof?

Melissia wrote:
This is why Deathwatch is so useful, as it is designed (by Andy Hoare and others from GW in concert with FFG) to let you play as an actual Marine based on the lore of 40k.

Adjusted for game balance of course.

Seaward wrote:

Melissia wrote:Sure, they're made to be able to rp side by side, although they admit that the Deathwatch characters are quite a few steps above DH/RT characters for the most part, especially when it comes to equipment (they actually had to tone down the Deathwatch equipment in an Errata because it was TOO powerful-- basically the original equipment was movie marine while the updated equipment is closer to lore).

Movie Marines are lore Marines.

How many examples would you like? Pick a number, they're out there. Discounting the bulk of Games Workshop and Black Library fluff in order to further your own agenda is...about what I've come to expect from you, now that I think about it/

You will probably have a hard time to find fluff where even basic marines are as tough as a hivetyrant, as skilled in combat as an eldar exarch and armed with basic weapons that can reliably penetrate a Rhino's frontarmour.

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:Movie Marines are lore Marines.

GW admits that many of its own books are basically written as if propaganda.

This is why Deathwatch is so useful, as it is designed (by Andy Hoare and others from GW in concert with FFG) to let you play as an actual Marine based on the lore of 40k. Dark Heresy was also useful-- originally created by GW, it was then handed off to FFG afterwards after a convoluted series of events in its launch cycle involving multiple cancellations and un-cancellations. DH and DW are not perfect by any means as they make concessions for the game, but they ARE for the most part internally consistent, which means for comparison purposes they're generally better than Black Library.

No, them being internally consistent simply means they're internally consistent, not that they're more authoritative.

Just so people stop doing it.... please stop referring to Dark Heresy, the 40k game rules, and so on. Please. You know that it has been twisted for game balance (and so that those that collect orks, tyranids and Ig doesn't have to get massive armies to be able to play). just... stop it. And, Melissia, can you please tell me what you are trying to gain by constantly saying against most people in this thread? This seems to have gone out of control.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Just so people stop doing it.... please stop referring to Dark Heresy

No.

Dark Heresy is, in many ways, better than what GW has produced.

GW admits that many of its own books are basically written as if propaganda.

Nice, this then, means that the oh so skilled sisters of battle are just a bunch of angry women in fancy armours being killed en masse by savage peasants with pitchforks with no miracles under the sun to save them (in reality) whereas in fluff (GW propaganda) they are shining, skilled bringers of death to all heretics with the Man himself standing ready to throw bucketloads of miracles upon even the weakest of them.

...as is every other army out there since all the GW boasting about them is just over exaggerated propaganda...hmm.

Sorry Mel, couldnt resist to joke with you, dont take it as a personal assault now, we both dont want to get banned from dakka now do we?



But my point is that it is hard to take written novel fluff and apply it since various authors present different opinions of "toughness" to say the marines.
Take Abnett or Counter where Astartes are treated like fumbling idiots who are dispatched with ease by paramilitary primitives and compare this to Reynolds and Bowden who picture the very same Astartes as almost godlike beings utterly immune to any threats from "mortal" humans of any kind and with authors like Kyme and Mcneil being somewhere in the middle presenting a more "realistic" approach to space marines and their "power levels".

Any fluff debate on 40k things first of all needs to agree on what fluff is usable and what is faulty or to biased.

@Melissia: You only looked at the first twelve words in his post. The very next couple of words changes what he said quite a bit. I'm not sure I agree but sheesh.


And lord, a storm's a brewin'...We're heading towards the cannon vs. non-cannon debate.


Can we stomp it out now before it grows into something no one but a MOD can control? We're using fluff and not crunch? We're using all fluff because GW is notorious for its everything and nothing is cannon nonstance?

Dark Heresy is, in many ways, better than what GW has produced.

Yes and no, the background material is far better while the power levels represented by the actual dice is way over simplified.
Things that are to powerful in the fluff are deliberatedly toned down and things that are useless in the fluff are elevated to cometiitive levels.

Why?
Because the point of dark heresy is to present a wie variety of working (competitive) gameplay where people can and will find it fun to play e v e are y t h i n g from a crossbow and spear wielding barbarian to a high tech stormtrooper and not find things to impossible.

Looking at damage output by different weapons alone grants a deep insight to this. Being hit by a bolt round is not THAT much worse then having an arrow shot at you and the damage levels of modern firearms that in reality would blow your limbs apart is almost the same as black powder muskets and bows and arrows. Again, for the reason that a player having a character that uses primitive tech should feel he still has a chance and belongs in a group consisting of a marine, inquisitor with plasma pistol and a stormtrooper.

Talking about, look at the legendary plasma pistol that can stop a terminator marine in his track and its "power levels" in DH, just like shooting a water pistol ffs so no no no and no again, dark heresy is far from being an accurate source when it comes to true fluff power levels in 40k.

Pyriel- wrote:
Take Abnett or Counter where Astartes are treated like fumbling idiots who are dispatched with ease by paramilitary primitives

The same Abnett who writes ten Astartes slaughtering two thousand dark eldar without a single loss and three Astartes slaughtering literally hundreds of Traitor Guard and xenos?

To be fair, he also has gaunt and a few ghosts killing a whole bunch of marines in a swamp, when they start off with pretty much no weapons. And yes, one gets darted to death, but they do write them as getting slammed as well, its not all one way traffic.

And one gets rolled by a guardsman with a lasgun. Just the one dude.