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motyak wrote:To be fair, he also has gaunt and a few ghosts killing a whole bunch of marines in a swamp, when they start off with pretty much no weapons. And yes, one gets darted to death, but they do write them as getting slammed as well, its not all one way traffic.

And one gets rolled by a guardsman with a lasgun. Just the one dude.

And Gaunt and crew note that what they did was very unusual and they got very lucky. Plus they had the help of an entire villiage.

I did say one got darted to death. And the point of what I wrote wasn't that they always write it one way or the other. Both happens.
And the one dude didn't have a village to back him up

Pyriel- wrote:Yes and no
[snip to save space]

Perhaps you could argue the damage levels are inappropriate, but at least ,unlike GW, they're consistent barring the hilariously unbalanced non-errata'd marine equipment. GW itself is very inconsistent about these kinds of things...

motyak wrote:I did say one got darted to death. And the point of what I wrote wasn't that they always write it one way or the other. Both happens.

Again, it was an usual occurance and what we would classify as an outlier.

''Five, ''breathed Rawne ''Five of the bastards, how the feth did we manage that?''

You basically have the Ghosts sit around is disbelief wondering how they did that after the fight. It is not something that usually happens and thus we can write it off as a one-off thing.

motyak wrote:And the one dude didn't have a village to back him up

That one dude was armed with a long-las sniper rifle who fired it at almost point blank range while the Astartes got distracted.

Huh? I meant the Vitrian, didn't he kill one of the iron warriors or whatever they were in one of the omnibus'. The planet where the ghosts launched an offensive and then got cut off, along with some of the Vitrians (the guys in glass armour).

Abnett also has them being killed one shot with bolt weapons (although that is only once) and super proud and unwilling to take advice, even when they are clearly wrong

motyak wrote:Huh? I meant the Vitrian, didn't he kill one of the iron warriors or whatever they were in one of the omnibus'. The planet where the ghosts launched an offensive and then got cut off, along with some of the Vitrians (the guys in glass armour).

Said Chaos Marine had Gaunt's chainsword rammed through his chest and took multiple shots from the high-powered long-las. He was basically struggling to get to his feet when the Vitrian laucnhed a point blank las-round at close range to his head.

The point that I'm making is that they do die. You people seem so keen to say they are invincible, but they do get killed, there are just some books where it gets out of hand. But it gets equally out of hand in favour of the guardsmen in other books

motyak wrote:The point that I'm making is that they do die. You people seem so keen to say they are invincible,

I don't believe I ever stated they are invincble, just incredibly difficult to kill.

motyak wrote:But it gets equally out of hand in favour of the guardsmen in other books

Hardly, you have a one-off instance.

Salvation's Reach was a Guard book BTW.

motyak wrote:
Abnett also has them being killed one shot with bolt weapons (although that is only once)

You can give me sources for that I trust?

motyak wrote:
super proud and unwilling to take advice, even when they are clearly wrong

I'm not sure how that affects durability.

I mean in places like the guard omnibus, where it has this squad of 10 catachans or however many just tear through hordes of orks and evil super-intelligent jungle (to be fair they do have marbo on their side at times...but still).

Its during the grand triumph in eisenhorn, he tops one of the marines with his bolt pistol. I wasn't meaning that as a be all end all argument, just that its there as a once off. In the same book a veteran sergeant gets torn up by grenades too, but he was real close to them so it kinda makes sense i guess.

I didn't mean the super proud thing to reflect on their durability, I just meant on marines in general, its a flaw that is included in books.

motyak wrote:I mean in places like the guard omnibus, where it has this squad of 10 catachans or however many just tear through hordes of orks and evil super-intelligent jungle (to be fair they do have marbo on their side at times...but still).

Catachans doing awesome stuff in a jungle. Gee, that's a suprise.

Ha I know, but the point was that they shouldn't have been able to do it against that many orks like they did, nor against a jungle which adapted against them at every turn. It was silly and over the top. Fun, but still silly. A bunch of pages back when someone said the focus of the book is the best fighter in the book, they had it spot on.

motyak wrote:Ha I know, but the point was that they shouldn't have been able to do it against orks like they did, it was silly and over the top. Fun, but still silly. A bunch of pages back when someone said the focus of the book is the best fighter in the book, they had it spot on.

Why should't they be able to do it against the orks as they did? They are Deathworld veterans fighting in their favorable home terrian.

But it wasn't favourable home terrain. It adapted against them every few minutes.

motyak wrote:But it wasn't favourable home terrain. It adapted against them every few minutes.

It was a deathworld jungle. That's exactly what I call favourable home terrain. They certainly did better than the orks.

Yeah that is true, they outshone the orks like no tomorrow.
It may have been a bad example, but during the battle they are dropping orks like crazy with grenades and lasguns, where the orks in the book just before in the omnibus can take lasgun shots like a champ (although they still die in the end...stupid orks).

But yeah, you got a point. I'm just trying to say that whoever the focus of the book is, they have to be pretty awesome. Even if they lose/die heroically, they are generally still awesome. And I don't mean this for EVERY SINGLE BOOK because I'm sure there are some well written, balanced examples, I mean by and large.

The same Abnett who writes ten Astartes slaughtering two thousand dark eldar without a single loss and three Astartes slaughtering literally hundreds of Traitor Guard and xenos?

Obviously he got better with age and experience.
The earlier marine descriptions are simply laughable, one shotted with-arrows chaos marines in the gaunt books (as someone already mentioned...I cringed a lot when reading that book) and an assortment of what is basically big, dumb brutes in non protective power armour.

Take a look and compare slaughtering 200 dark eldar to what is written in say, the blood angel novels where the author basically kills of two full chapter worths of space mariens (they are that weak as being used similar to quantity cannon fodder).
Point is novel fluff cannot be taken at face value since it is so varied and all depends on author and also time of the novels writing.


If you want "real" space marine fluff and power level descriptions the older white dwarf IA articles are pure genius and also canon.
Those are what I always considered the most "real" of all the written descriptions and also perfectly in line with GWs own official fluff.



As for the dark heresy books Mel is right, they are consistent but alo made this way for all people to enjoy the game without ANY created characters having to big an advantage over another one.
I laughed out loud when reading the grey knight creation chapter in the GK dark heresy addon, even their weapons, which are supposed to be the best humanity has to offer, specially crafted nemesis force weapons and what have you, are turned down in power to ridiculous levels that are far below regular marine weapons simply because when used with a psychic power like hammerhand they gain a small boost and THEN making said weapons on pair with other marine wargear. All in the name of not wanting to upset balance or players to much.

Balance wise a squad of dark heresy marines are on pair with around double that amount of dark heresy orks and that is as far from "real" fluff as possible but makes perfect sense roleplaying wise where player characters are in fact allowed to be orks and part of the group too.

The background though, is wonderful.

Pyriel- wrote:Obviously he got better with age and experience.
.

The latter one was from his most recent novel. (The three Astartes) So, no, your point is false.

Pyriel- wrote: one shotted with-arrows chaos marines in the gaunt books (as someone already mentioned...I cringed a lot when reading that book) and an assortment of what is basically big, dumb brutes in non protective power armour.

What books did you read? Can you give me proof that they were one-shotted with arrows in Traitor General? Because that did not happen in the book I read.

Pyriel- wrote:
Take a look and compare slaughtering 200 dark eldar to what is written in say, the blood angel novels where the author basically kills of two full chapter worths of space mariens (they are that weak as being used similar to quantity cannon fodder).

In the Blood Angels novel Astartes were fighting other Astartes.

Pyriel- wrote:Point is novel fluff cannot be taken at face value since it is so varied and all depends on author and also time of the novels writing.

Novel fluff is perfectly valid as any Codex.

Pyriel- wrote:
If you want "real" space marine fluff and power level descriptions the older white dwarf IA articles are pure genius and also canon.
Those are what I always considered the most "real" of all the written descriptions and also perfectly in line with GWs own official fluff.

Then give me an offical GW quote on Black Library not being canon.

In The First Heretic, a Marine is killed by a sharpened stick to the neck.

I just figured everyone here should know.

Void__Dragon wrote:In The First Heretic, a Marine is killed by a sharpened stick to the neck.

I just figured everyone here should know.

I don't recall that from reading the book.

Ok guys. The thing about the books is it's a story. I think for a lot of people who play 40k when they read the novels they're rolling dice I their head. It's not a battle report. It's not mathhammer. It's about the journey the characters have taken. It's not fair to single out one scene that's the climax of a story that may have taken over a decade of in-universe and real life time to cumulate.
It doesn't prove anything and all your really doing is throwing out spoilers like crazy. There's dozens of inconsiderate, consecutive non-stop spoilers in this thread.

Indeed. One cannot argue they are stupid either; behavior and much other varies a lot between chapters. I've read the Ultramarines series and i've taken that as my cue. Those that haven't read it, please do, because i think the information it provides is quite accurate.

I don't recall that from reading the book.

of course you dont as you seem to have a very select reading capacity and only read things you agree on.

He was killed by a spear thrown by a primitive on a backward planet but it is also explicitly stated that this was due to extreme luck on the part of the spear thrower and more of a freak accident that was just outrageous. Maybe you ought to re read said book and pay attention this time rather then jumping on people with accusations of being false.

Dont know what gaunt book they were arrowed to death while fumbling around in mud like complete retards not even being able to locate the primitive villagers who shot at them with their super senses and tech wargear but you can probably find someone who helps you to the correct book.
They werent one shotted I know that but pretty much massacred by arrows from simple people who they just couldnt see.
5 chaos marines walking into a forest village with the intent of killing everyone but ending up running left and right not seeing jack while a bunch of cave dwelling peasants did the peek-a-boo from behind a selection of trees while shooting arrows on them so that one by one they were killed. The one who actually managed to see an enemy ended up charging a tree or something like that.
Basically what abnett wrote back then was a scene with a squad of idiot marine wannabee paintballers getting manhandles by a bunch of teenagers. Gee, what realism indeed.

As for Abnett I said he got better in his later works where marines actually can kill things without fumbling around so that one is true but feel free to believe whatever you want.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Then give me an offical GW quote on Black Library not being canon.

I think reading about internal chapter fighting (BA novels) ending up with more then the whole chapters worth of marines getting killed says pretty much for BL not being canon but keep believing any little story involving marines counts as canon if that makes you feel any better.

Care to explain how canon the soul drinker novels are by the way with hundreds getting killed in every book and still they somehow have power armours and wargear over to equip all the hundreds of new recruits they need to bolster their chapter almost every nolvel with no admech support and being on the run in something not even being their home fortress?

How canon are the word bearer novels?
He kills of close to 10 000 word bearers along with 10-ish capital ships and that is a big "oh well" since there are tens of thousands more where they came from. It is also insinuated based on the number of world bearers left in the eye and the comparison to the numbers of black legion marines left that there are about 100 000 black legion marines in the eye. Would that be canon?

One of the "good guys" the WB face is the second chapter master of the good guys, someone apparently 1200 years old (gee wonder why GW didnt mention there was a guy older then Dante, must be the non canon thing you know) who spends pretty much his days practicing sword fighting...and is treated like a clumsy rag doll by a WB sorceror in a duel.

If you read the novels and pay close attention to the numbers (ages, marine numbers etc) being stated and hinted you'll understand those novels are as far from canon as humanly possible but I am in no illusion that you will since you managed to miss a whole scene in the first heretic and a pretty fun at that.

Sorry if I sound harsh but I dont take being called false lightly, especially if it comes from someone who apparently misses entire scenes in books.

Pyriel wrote:Dont know what gaunt book they were arrowed to death while fumbling around in mud like complete retards not even being able to locate the primitive villagers who shot at them with their super senses and tech wargear but you can probably find someone who helps you to the correct book.
They werent one shotted I know that but pretty much massacred by arrows from simple people who they just couldnt see.
5 chaos marines walking into a forest village with the intent of killing everyone but ending up running left and right not seeing jack while a bunch of cave dwelling peasants did the peek-a-boo from behind a selection of trees while shooting arrows on them so that one by one they were killed. The one who actually managed to see an enemy ended up charging a tree or something like that.

The Book is the Traitor General. There's alot more to the Nihtgane than 'primitive villagers', the foremost thing is that their suspect
of being tainted by Chaos, through use of the wode on their skin from the herbs and swamps of a Chaos held world, so one could assume that the Nihtgane were using said taint to their advantage.

Secondly, the majority of their attention came at the Ghosts.

Thirdly those arrows are heavily poisoned, but slow to take affect. In another book, 'His Last Command' Ezrah barbs a Wrought One (Chaos Ogryn) with 4 Barbs until the poison begins affecting its nervous system. The Nihtgane fired hundreds of those arrows into the slow Marines.

So there's alot more to it than them being 'simple primitives'.

Pyriel- wrote:

I don't recall that from reading the book.

of course you dont as you seem to have a very select reading capacity and only read things you agree on.

He was killed by a spear thrown by a primitive on a backward planet but it is also explicitly stated that this was due to extreme luck on the part of the spear thrower and more of a freak accident that was just outrageous. Maybe you ought to re read said book and pay attention this time rather then jumping on people with accusations of being false.

I said I don’t recall reading that, I never accused it of being false.

Perhaps you could post a quote for relevance?

Pyriel- wrote:
Dont know what gaunt book they were arrowed to death while fumbling around in mud like complete retards not even being able to locate the primitive villagers who shot at them with their super senses and tech wargear but you can probably find someone who helps you to the correct book.

It’s in Traitor General. Only one was killed by renybows and that was because he was not wearing a helmet and was perforated by something like fifty arrows in the face. All were heavily poisoned enough to drop Ogryns.

The rest were taken out by the Ghosts after they slaughtered 40 tribesmen. The Ghosts, as noted, were all highly experienced veterans whose main gimmick was stealth. The Astartes were hardly fumbling about.

Pyriel- wrote:
They werent one shotted I know that but pretty much massacred by arrows from simple people who they just couldnt see.

That’s not what happened. A single Chaos Marine was slain when he was surrounded and ambushed in the middle of a swamp by partisans who had lived there for centuries. HE was shot in the unarmored face by dozens of arrows. I would assume an Astartes mobility to be restricted by something like a swamp.

Pyriel- wrote:
Basically what abnett wrote back then was a scene with a squad of idiot marine wannabee paintballers getting manhandles by a bunch of teenagers. Gee, what realism indeed.

Again, that’s not what happened. You exaggerate heavily.

Pyriel- wrote:
I think reading about internal chapter fighting (BA novels) ending up with more then the whole chapters worth of marines getting killed says pretty much for BL not being canon but keep believing any little story involving marines counts as canon if that makes you feel any better.

Can you give me a quote and a statement that more than a chapter’ worth of Blood Angels being killed in the novels?

Pyriel- wrote:
Care to explain how canon the soul drinker novels are by the way with hundreds getting killed in every book and still they somehow have power armours and wargear over to equip all the hundreds of new recruits they need to bolster their chapter almost every nolvel with no admech support and being on the run in something not even being their home fortress?

Did you ignore the part in the first novel when they transferred everything from their fleet to the Space Hulk?

And the Soul Drinkers are effectively ill-equipped beyond basic Astartes armaments. It’s noted in the novels themselves that the Soul Drinkers lack Terminator armor and vehicles. Astartes are noted in Imperial Armour as manufacturing their own ammunition and suchlike, so we can expect them to be equipped with basic Astartes weapons and armor.

Pyriel- wrote:
He kills of close to 10 000 word bearers along with 10-ish capital ships and that is a big "oh well" since there are tens of thousands more where they came from. It is also insinuated based on the number of world bearers left in the eye and the comparison to the numbers of black legion marines left that there are about 100 000 black legion marines in the eye. Would that be canon?

Of ocurse. Collected Visions put’s the average Legion size at 100,000 Astartes and the Word Bearers as the Second Largest Legion in The First Heretic.

And no, they don’t kill of ten thousand Astartes. Ten thousand Astartes are sent, but many escape in the end.

Pyriel- wrote:
One of the "good guys" the WB face is the second chapter master of the good guys, someone apparently 1200 years old (gee wonder why GW didnt mention there was a guy older then Dante, must be the non canon thing you know) who spends pretty much his days practicing sword fighting...and is treated like a clumsy rag doll by a WB sorceror in a duel.

You are very incorrect here. Cymar Xydias was the one noted to be 1200 years old. Titus Valens was the one who fought Burias (A ten thousand year old Possessed Astartes veteran) and it was a proconsul who was mentioned sword training. Valens used a thunder hammer and ultimately died to having his unarmored face smashed in.

And why would Xydias’s age be non-canon? And why would GW mention the age of every Chapter Master in the Imperium in the Blood Angels Codex?

Pyriel- wrote:
If you read the novels and pay close attention to the numbers (ages, marine numbers etc) being stated and hinted you'll understand those novels are as far from canon as humanly possible but I am in no illusion that you will since you managed to miss a whole scene in the first heretic and a pretty fun at that.

Sorry if I sound harsh but I dont take being called false lightly, especially if it comes from someone who apparently misses entire scenes in books.

That is rich coming from someone who evidently did exactly what you are accusing me of.

Oh, and you still have not given me a GW quote saying that Black Library is non-canon. All you have given me so far is your biased and flawed opinion.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Stormtroopers are the Imperium's Special Forces. They're not just veterans with Hot-shot weapons. They're trained from infancy to become the best mortal soldiers the Imperium can field. Asartes are in their own little category, a mix of Special forces and Shock Troops. Generally, they operate in small detachments, probably multiples of a hundred, and are tasked with lighting strikes against enemy command posts and commanders, and other vital areas. They smash their way through, kill any characters or destroy vital resources, then move out. They don't usually fight pitched battles, it's only when the Imperium is desperate.

Wait, so if Stormtroopers are Special Forces, that what role do SM fulfill? Posterboys?

Yup, just like the USMC

In all seriousness, Space Marines are an elite "expeditionary" fighting force, not spec ops troops. Deathwatch on the other hand...

Gree wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:In The First Heretic, a Marine is killed by a sharpened stick to the neck.

I just figured everyone here should know.

I don't recall that from reading the book.

It was a Custodian, IIRC...and the person delivering "the sharpened stick to the neck" was a freaking enraged Primarch.

Not quite. I believe this is in reference to a discussion between Argel Tal and Xaphen regarding the fate of a Chaplain called 'Sar Fareth'.

Gree wrote:Oh, and you still have not given me a GW quote saying that Black Library is non-canon. All you have given me so far is your biased and flawed opinion.

He has a point. Canon as a whole does not exist in this franchise - it is a fallacy that I myself have been following for way too long. Statements regarding this are available from both GW studio vets as well as Black Library writers themselves. Take a look at Gav Thorpe's blog or the one from Aaron-Dembski Bowden, for example.

And as such you really won't be getting anywhere by throwing novel quotes at each other. There is no consistency. In fact, the more you go into detail, Black Library novels contradict each other almost all the time because of the massive artistic license the authors are granted and they are under no obligation to adhere to their colleagues' ideas (again, see ADB).

GW's own fluff - with certain exceptions - tends to follow a more down-to-earth approach that has its foundation in the tabletop rules. The fact that authors of licensed products constantly exaggerate in a game of one-upmanship regarding who writes the most awesome Space Marines (of which their height seems to be a factor as well - Jes Goodwin himself joked about them getting bigger all the time) simply to pander to a target audience that prefers to read about the Astartes like an army of Living Gods has nothing to do with that. It did create the twisted perception that Marines in the TT are supposedly much worse than their fluff would have them, though, or even that the "Movie Marines" rules are a more accurate representation even when the actual article outright denies this. Talk about selective reading.

No, wait, I should amend that. Selective reading isn't exactly wrong, given that there is no uniform truth that would otherwise get changed by it. It is, however, wrong to claim that the TT rules would be an inadequate representation simply because they follow GW's interpretation of the Marines and not some novel author's. Other than that, simply pick the "powerlevel" you are most happy with and run with that. This is not something that can be debated. It's quite simply up to everyone's own personal preferences.

Lynata wrote:No, wait, I should amend that. Selective reading isn't exactly wrong, given that there is no uniform truth that would otherwise get changed by it. It is, however, wrong to claim that the TT rules would be an inadequate representation simply because they follow GW's interpretation of the Marines and not some novel author's. Other than that, simply pick the "powerlevel" you are most happy with and run with that. This is not something that can be debated. It's quite simply up to everyone's own personal preferences.

However if Marines arn't better in the background than they are on the table top, they are a massive waste of the Imperiums time. Just make more Storm Troopers.

Otherwise, agreed. Unless GW sets out a guideline to be followed, authors are fully entitled to pick the route they want to go. I myself favour the sort of strength the Imperial Armour books puts out there.

Romer wrote:However if Marines arn't better in the background than they are on the table top, they are a massive waste of the Imperiums time. Just make more Storm Troopers.

Just to add something to this - the Imperium does make more Storm Troopers ... they're called Grenadiers. "Proper" Storm Troopers (both from the IG's regiment as well as the Inquisitorial units) are only marginally better, differentiated more by their origin and deployment rather than experience and equipment (or survivability).

They also go on a higher number of dangerous missions and die much easier than Space Marines, meaning you'll have a much higher attrition rate there. High attrition is also true for the SoB, who are recruited from the very same facilities as Storm Troopers and share their comparatively low numbers. Even in the Imperium, there are only so many orphans considered eligible for Schola education "produced" each year, and of those, only a tiny percentage may become Storm Troopers who then may go on to die on their very first mission. It is perhaps ironical that it is much easier for a Space Marine Chapter to just land on some Feral World and pick a healthy-looking barbarian for Astartes transformation. Granted, their training takes way longer, but in return you get a Marine that will serve for ... let's say ~100 years on average.

Furthermore, the Astartes are still the most powerful projection of force that any type of Imperial infantry can focus on a small area. The actual degree by how much they are better is of secondary concern, i.e. this doesn't mean that to fulfill this role the Space Marine has to be a God (I facepalmed when I read Black Crusade now having escalated it to this level - before, it was at least just "Demigod" status) who is invulnerable to small arms fire. Even if a Space Marine would "only" be five to ten times as good as a regular Guardsman, this would result in a squad of Marines being able to take down an entire Company with the proper tactics, namely their famed use of "shock and awe". Which is where the Astartes truly excel.
For the sheer "hammer and anvil" type of power bluntly punching through waves upon waves of enemies you got the Imperial Guard. I believe that a lot of people are mixing these elements in an attempt to get the best of both worlds, but personally I think the end result looks rather mary-sueish. I much prefer the "vulnerable" yet smart Space Marines I read about in GW's own books, for only with fallibility and a real challenge comes true heroism. Also, it's way more Grimdark™ this way.

My thoughts on the subject, anyways.