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Ravenous D wrote:Yep, apparently there are millions if not more tomb worlds in the universe and billions upon billions of necrons. So if that was them in their weakened state, how big was the eldar empire?

The Eldar also had access to far greater Psychic powers prior to the birth of Slaanesh than they do now. It is possible that their threat came not just from numbers, but Psychic prowess coupled if superiority in the Webway. The Necron forces may also have been repairing or rebuilding following their two titanic wars (not just the footsoldiers but the larger machines of destruction, such as the World Engine). Not to mention that they still had their gods, whereas the Necrons had just defeated theirs.

Sasori wrote:And yes, it would need to be someone valuable for a mention in Trazyn's Collections.

Valuable, yes, but not necessarily unique (afterall, one Enslaver is not unique. There's an entire species of them.) So an important Chapter Master, for instance, would fit.

BrainDeleted's point still stands anyway. The Codex is not just about hugely important things (and let's face it, a living Primarch would be a massively important trophy). That section was about Trazyn's character more than what he specifically has in my opinion.

I am going with Cypher. Explains where he has been since 3rd edition, and gives a chance for him to show up in the next Chaos Codex.

Maybe its one of the lost primarchs like vulcan

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:Yep, apparently there are millions if not more tomb worlds in the universe and billions upon billions of necrons. So if that was them in their weakened state, how big was the eldar empire?

The Eldar also had access to far greater Psychic powers prior to the birth of Slaanesh than they do now. It is possible that their threat came not just from numbers, but Psychic prowess coupled if superiority in the Webway. The Necron forces may also have been repairing or rebuilding following their two titanic wars (not just the footsoldiers but the larger machines of destruction, such as the World Engine). Not to mention that they still had their gods, whereas the Necrons had just defeated theirs.

Sasori wrote:And yes, it would need to be someone valuable for a mention in Trazyn's Collections.

Valuable, yes, but not necessarily unique (afterall, one Enslaver is not unique. There's an entire species of them.) So an important Chapter Master, for instance, would fit.

BrainDeleted's point still stands anyway. The Codex is not just about hugely important things (and let's face it, a living Primarch would be a massively important trophy). That section was about Trazyn's character more than what he specifically has in my opinion.

They are not going to outright Mention a primarch, they are just going to give us the lines to speculate about it.

I don't See how Braindeleted points stands at all, considering it's a specific circumstance involving Two completely different Necrons. They needed someone current for Zahndrekh and Obyrons story, as they more combat and war oriented, compared to Trazyn who is a preserver of histories.

Trazyn also referred to Guliman as "An Old friend" and said he would "Be better served in my company than yours" It's clear that Trazyn has the means to capture and hold Primarchs if he is going to make such a bold statement to captain Sicarus. His statement also implies that he was active during the time of Heresy. it's quite possible that he laid a trap for one of the Primarchs after the Hersey.

There is literately no reason why they wouldn't say something like "Among a slew of ancient and venerated chapter masters that adorn his collection" instead of the baroque line if it was something so simple. Chapter masters aren't special, and there would no reason to be vague about it

RAVEN 97 wrote:Maybe its one of the lost primarchs like vulcan

That's been gone over a fair few times already!

That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Brother Coa wrote:That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Then why woulden't it say so? There is no reason to be vague about a Custodes.

Sasori wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Then why woulden't it say so? There is no reason to be vague about a Custodes.

No reason to be vague if its a Primarch either.

Castiel wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Then why woulden't it say so? There is no reason to be vague about a Custodes.

No reason to be vague if its a Primarch either.

Uh, yes there is. GW will never outright say where the Primarchs are. So, there is a reason for it to be Vague.

Sasori wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Then why woulden't it say so? There is no reason to be vague about a Custodes.

Because they are purposely being vauge to generate discussion, obviously. That is the whole point, to make it vague enough that we cannot know.

They want it to be open ended so they can stick in whoever they want, and the actual identity has in no way been nailed down.

How can you say the fact that it is so vague we can't tell who it is is proof it is a primarch?

riplikash wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Then why woulden't it say so? There is no reason to be vague about a Custodes.

Because they are purposely being vauge to generate discussion, obviously. That is the whole point, to make it vague enough that we cannot know.

How can you say the fact that it is so vague we can't tell who it is is proof it is a primarch?

Because it's clearly vague to Indicate a Primarch. There is no other reason, why they would make that line Vague. Of course it's supposed to generate discussion, but it implies a Primarch. If you had read my other posts, I've gone over this.

Sasori wrote:

riplikash wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Then why woulden't it say so? There is no reason to be vague about a Custodes.

Because they are purposely being vauge to generate discussion, obviously. That is the whole point, to make it vague enough that we cannot know.

How can you say the fact that it is so vague we can't tell who it is is proof it is a primarch?

Because it's clearly vague to Indicate a Primarch. There is no other reason, why they would make that line Vague. Of course it's supposed to generate discussion, but it implies a Primarch. If you had read my other posts, I've gone over this.

They might have made it vague simply because it generates all kinds of discussions rather than 'It's a primarch but which one?'
They might have made it vague simply because they like being vague.
They might have made it vague because they can't think up a character who is good enough to get stasis-napped but not important enough or well liked to make people annoyed at the Necron Codex because of it...

Sasori wrote:
Because it's clearly vague to Indicate a Primarch. There is no other reason, why they would make that line Vague. Of course it's supposed to generate discussion, but it implies a Primarch. If you had read my other posts, I've gone over this.

Obviously it isn't that clear, and I get the impression you didn't read many of my posts to that effect in the first 3-4 pages where I went over it.

Baroque and giant is not enough to clearly indicate a primarch. The argument that 'only a primarch is important enough' is clearly refuted by the fact that the other 3 things mentioned in the sentence are not of nearly that level of importance. There is no shortage of important giants in baroque power armor in the 40k universe.

Even among the primarchs there are very few viable candidates, and those that are viable are unlikely due to fluff and meta reasons. I say unlikely, not impossible, because I readily admit it COULD be a primarch, because it is so vague. That is the point.

But no, it isn't obviouse. People just want it to be and start grasping for the flimsiest justifications. And I'm not trying to be rude, but "a primarch is the only possible reason to be vague about it" is one of the flimsiest.

They left it vague to leave their options open, not tie themselves down, and to generate discussion. Not to prove it's a primarch.

Sasori wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Then why woulden't it say so? There is no reason to be vague about a Custodes.

It doesn't say that's a Primarch at all, just giant men clad in baroque power armor. What Astartes have that kind of armor?

Baroque and giant is not enough to clearly indicate a primarch. The argument that 'only a primarch is important enough' is clearly refuted by the fact that the other 3 things mentioned in the sentence are not of nearly that level of importance. There is no shortage of important giants in baroque power armor in the 40k universe.

Sebastian Thor had a major impact on the Imperium, while not as great of an extent as perhaps the Primarchs, is he is up there. Enslavers nearly wiped out the galaxy of Sentient life. They had a bigger impact that the Primarchs ever had. I don't know anything about the Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, but it's probably one of a Kind.

So, two of those things can't be replicated. Two of them we know both had major impacts on history, and are thus very important in the eyes of a Historian.

Even among the Primarchs there are very few viable candidates, and those that are viable are unlikely due to fluff and meta reasons. I say unlikely, not impossible, because I readily admit it COULD be a primarch, because it is so vague. That is the point.

What Fluff makes it unlikely that Vulkan could be captured? and what do you mean by "Meta". It's no more unlikely Vulkan than it is for something else.

But no, it isn't obviouse. People just want it to be and start grasping for the flimsiest justifications. And I'm not trying to be rude, but "a primarch is the only possible reason to be vague about it" is one of the flimsiest.

It's no more flimsy than someone saying it's a run of the mill captain. It makes a lot more sense to word a line like that, when we know that GW is never going to officially reveal the locations of the lost Primarchs.

They left it vague to leave their options open, not tie themselves down, and to generate discussion. Not to prove it's a primarch.

Unless you write for them, you can't know their intentions when writing the line. While I agree it was written to generate discussion, the rest of your interpretation here, holds just as much ground as mine does.

The line is clearly there to implicate the possibility of a Primarch, the fact that so many people jumped on that conclusion proves this. We will never know what it is though.

EDIT:

t doesn't say that's a Primarch at all, just giant men clad in baroque power armor. What Astartes have that kind of armor?

Common Astartes don't. That's the point.

Sasori wrote:
Sebastian Thor had a major impact on the Imperium, while not as great of an extent as perhaps the Primarchs, is he is up there. Enslavers nearly wiped out the galaxy of Sentient life. They had a bigger impact that the Primarchs ever had. I don't know anything about the Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, but it's probably one of a Kind.

There are plenty of people who had similar impact to Sebastian Thor, I don't know how you can claim he is not only on the same level as a primarch in importance, but more important. And yes the enslavers are important as a species, but hey, so are orks, eldar, daemons, and humans. That doesn't make an individual of primarch levels of value. And 'i don't know anything about it but it must be super valuable' doesn't hold water. It doesn't influence this discussion one way or the other. All we really have is a) an important human and b) a sample of a rare and impartial species. That does not imply the only other possible item of similar value could be a Primarch.

So, two of those things can't be replicated. Two of them we know both had major impacts on history, and are thus very important in the eyes of a Historian.

Yes, obviously he collects things of hustorical importance. Thousands of giants in power armor could fit this bill though. Saying "inquisitors and chapter masters and (etc.) are a dime a dozen" only works if you don't mention who they are. Marinus Calger though? Inquisitor Rex? (insert name of rogue trader who saved the galaxy from an ancient old ones artifact here)? Hey, apparently chapter masters, inquisitors, and Rogue Traders CAN be incredably important historical figures.

What Fluff makes it unlikely that Vulkan could be captured? and what do you mean by "Meta". It's no more unlikely Vulkan than it is for something else.

a) he has other prophecies concerning him that GW is unlikely to hijack, b) 'baroque' has never been a good description of his armor style. Of course it still could be him, but he isn't a slam dunk like people are claiming.

It's no more flimsy than someone saying it's a run of the mill captain. It makes a lot more sense to word a line like that, when we know that GW is never going to officially reveal the locations of the lost Primarchs.

Strawman attack, no one ever said it was a run of the mill captain, just that there are plenty of figures of historic importance who could fit the bill.

Unless you write for them, you can't know their intentions when writing the line. While I agree it was written to generate discussion, the rest of your interpretation here, holds just as much ground as mine does.

See, you just agreed with me. You said "what other reason could there be to be vague except it is a primarch", I provided a list of reasons. I agree your explanation is just as likely as the others. I never said it couldn't be a primarch, that might be why they left it vague. But there is insufficient evidence, and you are acting like it is a certainty. Them being vague does not indicate it is a primarch, it just doesn't indicate it is NOT a primarch.

The line is clearly there to implicate the possibility of a Primarch, the fact that so many people jumped on that conclusion proves this. We will never know what it is though.

Where does your logic come from? The fact that a some people, and you have no idea what percentages, assumed it is a primarch means it is and that was their intent? That isn't proof. That isn't...anything.

Common Astartes don't. That's the point.

No one ever said it was a common astartes, you are straw man attacking again. Plenty of giant individual of historical importance wear baroque power armor.

You don't just get to claim a lack of proof is proof your correct.

Considering that Trazyn is fine with replacing lost 'model's in his gallery with appropriate replicas, it is also possible that it is simply a regular space marine in ornate armor. Maybe he just stole a Primarch's armor one day.

While I can see that for diorama's, the intent of the section in question is clearly trying to indicate what valuable items his collection contains.

Maybe is was a fellow from the DAoT?
They may have had a form of power armour...
They may have even had a genetically altered warrior caste...

Sasori wrote: I don't know anything about the Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, but it's probably one of a Kind.

Lexicanum is your friend: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Altansar#.TuptZ7KdcqA

So he can't get innto the EoT but he can board an Eldar Craftworld whilst it is caught in the EoT and make off with one of their (presumably) most prized possessions?
Contradictions abound...

Well, since they can apparently access the Webway now(with limitations) I would imagine he entered the Webway and quickly took the door to the Craftworld, stole the Choir, and GTFO of there as fast as possable.

The funniest potential candidate is Lorgar. Sure he's a daemon prince living large in the EoT, but it'd be pretty funny if he locked himself in his Kathedral of Kaos millenia ago, somehow got nabbed by Trazyn, and the Word Bearers are still waiting for him to come out and lead them.

daveNYC wrote:The funniest potential candidate is Lorgar. Sure he's a daemon prince living large in the EoT, but it'd be pretty funny if he locked himself in his Kathedral of Kaos millenia ago, somehow got nabbed by Trazyn, and the Word Bearers are still waiting for him to come out and lead them.

LIES!

There are plenty of people who had similar impact to Sebastian Thor, I don't know how you can claim he is not only on the same level as a primarch in importance, but more important. And yes the enslavers are important as a species, but hey, so are orks, eldar, daemons, and humans. That doesn't make an individual of primarch levels of value. And 'i don't know anything about it but it must be super valuable' doesn't hold water. It doesn't influence this discussion one way or the other. All we really have is a) an important human and b) a sample of a rare and impartial species. That does not imply the only other possible item of similar value could be a Primarch.

I never said Sebastian Thor was important as a Primarch, in fact I Said the opposite. Please re-read my statement. You personally, may not believe that it could be a Primarch, but I do, based on these things. You are free to draw your conclusions based on the evidence one way, and mine the other. It doesn't make either of us incorrect however.

Yes, obviously he collects things of hustorical importance. Thousands of giants in power armor could fit this bill though. Saying "inquisitors and chapter masters and (etc.) are a dime a dozen" only works if you don't mention who they are. Marinus Calger though? Inquisitor Rex? (insert name of rogue trader who saved the galaxy from an ancient old ones artifact here)? Hey, apparently chapter masters, inquisitors, and Rogue Traders CAN be incredably important historical figures.

Sebastian Thor was important to history, and they mentioned his name, why wouldn't they do the same if it was some historical important Chapter Master? Or a Rogue Trader?

a) he has other prophecies concerning him that GW is unlikely to hijack, b) 'baroque' has never been a good description of his armor style. Of course it still could be him, but he isn't a slam dunk like people are claiming.

Can you point me to some descriptions of His armor? I'm almost Certain that it has been described as "Ornate" which can be interchanged with "Baroque"

Strawman attack, no one ever said it was a run of the mill captain, just that there are plenty of figures of historic importance who could fit the bill.

People have stated it could just be a Custodes, or a Inquisitor. Both of which could be, or not be historically relevant.

It's also not necessary to write things like "Strawman Attack." If you are going to attempt to refute my points, just do so instead of finding the need to add things like that as a preface.

See, you just agreed with me. You said "what other reason could there be to be vague except it is a primarch", I provided a list of reasons. I agree your explanation is just as likely as the others. I never said it couldn't be a primarch, that might be why they left it vague. But there is insufficient evidence, and you are acting like it is a certainty. Them being vague does not indicate it is a primarch, it just doesn't indicate it is NOT a primarch.

I've never said it is a 100% certainty that it is a Primarch. I've said the line is clearly there to indicate that Trazyn holds a Primarch, and really the only reason why it would be vague is to create speculation of this type. "Indicate" and "Implies" does not mean 100% Certainty.


Where does your logic come from? The fact that a some people, and you have no idea what percentages, assumed it is a primarch means it is and that was their intent? That isn't proof. That isn't...anything.

It is proof that the line of text was there to indicate the possibility of a Primarch. The fact that people have come to that conclusion IS proof.

No one ever said it was a common astartes, you are straw man attacking again. Plenty of giant individual of historical importance wear baroque power armor.

Sure, there are plenty. Why wouldn't he list their name though?

You don't just get to claim a lack of proof is proof your correct.

When the fact of the matter is, that GW will not outright say what happened to the missing Primarchs, there is never going to be any proof. There are only going to be lines that are supposed to lead us to the conclusion that it may be one. This is one of those lines, and it's as close to proof as you are going to get.




EDIT

Sasori wrote: I don't know anything about the Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, but it's probably one of a Kind.


Brother Coa Wrote:
Lexicanum is your friend: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Altansar#.TuptZ7KdcqA

I am well aware of Craftworld Altansar. If you had read the link you posted, you would have known that it doesn't mention the Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, or any possible historic significance it would have held.

I can assume that a Wraithbone Choir is a bunch of Bonesingers for the Craftworld, but I don't know for sure, and there is no info on Lexicanium about it that I can find. If you have a specific link to Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, or Any Wraithbone Choir Article, than that would be relevant to this discussion.

Perhaps it will feature in the upcoming Eldar Codex.

Sasori wrote:
I am well aware of Craftworld Altansar. If you had read the link you posted, you would have known that it doesn't mention the Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, or any possible historic significance it would have held.

I can assume that a Wraithbone Choir is a bunch of Bonesingers for the Craftworld, but I don't know for sure, and there is no info on Lexicanium about it that I can find. If you have a specific link to Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, or Any Wraithbone Choir Article, than that would be relevant to this discussion.

Perhaps it will feature in the upcoming Eldar Codex.

And taking chair from Craftworld that was trapped in EoT for Emperor knows how many centuries is not worth mentioning?
That would be like stealing Golden Throne or Eldar souls from Slaanesh castle.

Brother Coa wrote:

Sasori wrote:
I am well aware of Craftworld Altansar. If you had read the link you posted, you would have known that it doesn't mention the Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, or any possible historic significance it would have held.

I can assume that a Wraithbone Choir is a bunch of Bonesingers for the Craftworld, but I don't know for sure, and there is no info on Lexicanium about it that I can find. If you have a specific link to Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, or Any Wraithbone Choir Article, than that would be relevant to this discussion.

Perhaps it will feature in the upcoming Eldar Codex.

And taking chair from Craftworld that was trapped in EoT for Emperor knows how many centuries is not worth mentioning?
That would be like stealing Golden Throne or Eldar souls from Slaanesh castle.

Well, we don't know for sure if it was stolen while it was in the EoT or not. If it was stolen while it was in the EoT it sure doesn't put anything out of Trazyn's Grasp.

I am amazed he didn't try to take Emperor for his collection.
He is one of a kind.

Brother Coa wrote:I am amazed he didn't try to take Emperor for his collection.
He is one of a kind.

Spoiler:

( He is Matt Ward creation, I wouldn't be surprised if he had Khorne as a trophy )

Don't go there Coa...
Just don't.
This thread has more than enough problems with that kind of sheep.

Brother Coa wrote:I am amazed he didn't try to take Emperor for his collection.
He is one of a kind.

Spoiler:

( He is Matt Ward creation, I wouldn't be surprised if he had Khorne as a trophy )

Draigo's law strikes!