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It may not be a primarch. Maybe its just one of the chapter masters. A chapter master could have very ornate artificer armor and could be huge in stature as well. After all, they have the genes of their primarch.

Durza wrote:Horus is impossible. The Emperor exploded him.


Considering that he somehow has the head of Sebastian Thor, which one would think would be fairly heavily guarded, it's not that big of a stretch to think that he got Guilliman and the Ultramarines are too ashamed to admit it. Though considering that Ward wrote the codex, it's unlikely.

Bit of a crackpot theory here:

What if the man isn't a real man at all? What if he's a painting of a man in baroque armour, a painting that has the face in an eternal scream because it's the one Fulgrim's soul is inside?

This does bring up a point. It could be possible, if they have the knowledge on how to travel in the Warp. Fulgrim's face could be like that because of pain, disappointment or even remorse.

Maybe we will never know...

Durza wrote:Horus is impossible. The Emperor exploded him.

So how come there was a body for the Emps Children to try to clone?

I personally favour the idea that it is a custodes.

EDIT: Has anyone considered II and XI ?

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
his collection includes the fabled Wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver, and [b]a giant of a man wearing baroque Power

Didnt they retcon the Enslavers?

As for the OPs question, that reads to me as a primarch. My guess is Russ.

Nah, russ armour was found at a khornate temple. I doubt the necrons wouldgo so far as to travel to daemonic temples

Castiel wrote:

Durza wrote:Horus is impossible. The Emperor exploded him.

So how come there was a body for the Emps Children to try to clone?

Good mention.

The Emperor destroyed Horus soul, not his body.

Could be why the clones didn't come out as planned.

But there sure isn't a body now as it was destroyed by the Black Legion.

tedurur wrote:
Didnt they retcon the Enslavers?

I was a bit concerned that they had totally rewritten the whole war in heaven and why the C'tan went into hibernation, they apparently did, and the Enlsavers don't get a mention directly but could be explained by



Which to me, seems to imply the Enlsavers were the undoing of the Old Ones.

tedurur wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
his collection includes the fabled Wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver, and [b]a giant of a man wearing baroque Power

Didnt they retcon the Enslavers?

As for the OPs question, that reads to me as a primarch. My guess is Russ.

No, the enslavers still exist, and there was likely still an enslaver plague, but it is no longer the reason the Necrons went into stasis.

I still don't see why everyone is so insistent it must be a primarch. Primarchs certainly fit the bill, but it could just as easily be someone else: an inquisitor, a techno-barbarian lord, a human leader/warrior from a non-imperial alligned world, some great general, any number of more recent space marines, an iron man. It is left deliberately vague, a primarch is no more likely than any other option. If anything I think the other options are more likely than it being a primarch. It isn't like the galaxy has a shortage of giant men who wear/wore baroque power armor, and most primarchs either have a logical reason to not be considered (russ does not wear 'baroque' stylearmor, others are not somewhere the necrons would have access too), have important fluff responsibilities that GW is unlikely to hijack for a one line entry in the Necron Codex (Vulkan), or are just too important to the fluff overall for GW to consider (GW is not going to give guilliman to Trazyn. Funny idea, yes, but lets be realistic here) . It's just a vague and interesting tidbit to think about, not a focal point of the 40k storyline.

My bet would be on another figure. A warlord, an iron man, an inquistor. All more likely to be available to Trazyn, more likely to fit the 'baroque' description, and a more likely meta target of GW fluff writers.

But why would Trazyn have a Chapter Master or Inquisitor as a trinket, even a "famous" one?

Chapter Masters and Inquisitors are a dime a dozen in the 40k universe relativly speaking. he isn't one for collecting something he could literally pick up any time and any place.

Grey Templar wrote:But why would Trazyn have a Chapter Master or Inquisitor as a trinket, even a "famous" one?

Chapter Masters and Inquisitors are a dime a dozen in the 40k universe relativly speaking. he isn't one for collecting something he could literally pick up any time and any place.

But, for example, can you pick up the fisrt Chapter Master of the Blood Angels everyday? Some CMs inquisitors etc are more important, and thus collectible than others of their kind.

Maybe it's what happened to old Valdor .

Grey Templar wrote:But why would Trazyn have a Chapter Master or Inquisitor as a trinket, even a "famous" one?

Chapter Masters and Inquisitors are a dime a dozen in the 40k universe relativly speaking. he isn't one for collecting something he could literally pick up any time and any place.

But...he already has. Preserved head of Sebastian Thor, remember?

He captures and preserves guardsmen from great battles, and you think a chapter master or inquisitor is below his notice? How does that make sense? It is standing right next to the ossified husk of an enslaver, who greatly outnumbered chapter masters and inquisitors, and are much less important on an individual basis. If anything the mention of a Primarch amongst those items would be out of place, not an inquisitor or chapter master. And, again, it could still be a warlord, man of iron, rogue trader, high lord of terra, or some other important individual.

riplikash wrote:I still don't see why everyone is so insistent it must be a primarch. Primarchs certainly fit the bill, but it could just as easily be someone else: an inquisitor, a techno-barbarian lord, a human leader/warrior from a non-imperial alligned world, some great general, any number of more recent space marines, an iron man. It is left deliberately vague, a primarch is no more likely than any other option.

Rule of cool. When it comes to 40k collectibles, the Primarchs are the best of the bunch. Limited edition, only 20 ever made, and each one is unique. Custodes, Regular Marines, Thunder Warriors, all of them are (or were) as common as flies at one point or another. Plus 'baroque' does imply age, and 'giant of a man' is something I read as meaning bigger than a Space Marine (Marines are big, but there're also a know quantity when it comes to size).

Don't forget that it could also be one of the two missing primarchs.

daveNYC wrote:

riplikash wrote:I still don't see why everyone is so insistent it must be a primarch. Primarchs certainly fit the bill, but it could just as easily be someone else: an inquisitor, a techno-barbarian lord, a human leader/warrior from a non-imperial alligned world, some great general, any number of more recent space marines, an iron man. It is left deliberately vague, a primarch is no more likely than any other option.

Rule of cool. When it comes to 40k collectibles, the Primarchs are the best of the bunch. Limited edition, only 20 ever made, and each one is unique. Custodes, Regular Marines, Thunder Warriors, all of them are (or were) as common as flies at one point or another. Plus 'baroque' does imply age, and 'giant of a man' is something I read as meaning bigger than a Space Marine (Marines are big, but there're also a know quantity when it comes to size).

Don't forget that it could also be one of the two missing primarchs.

Fairly sure both Missing Primarchs were accounted for... and dealt with.
Inquisitors can be pretty unique.
As can Custodes.

I'd want to say It's Vulkan, just because I could see both of them encountering each other while searching for Artifacts.

I don't see any reason why It coulden't be a Primarch.

Pick a single officer from the British army over the past thousand years.
What is the liklihood of that officer being a Field Marshal?
There have been countless chapter masters, people clad in artificer/terminator armour over the ages. You're assuming it's a primarch because you really really want it to be a primarch, nothing more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:But why would Trazyn have a Chapter Master or Inquisitor as a trinket, even a "famous" one?

Chapter Masters and Inquisitors are a dime a dozen in the 40k universe relativly speaking. he isn't one for collecting something he could literally pick up any time and any place.

Primarchs are some of the most powerful beings in the universe. Definately powerful enough to dick over some [see forum posting rules] necron who tried to take him.

It could be Johnson. Giant man, dissapeared, venerable. I think it's Lion'el.

It is plausible for it to be an inquisitor. The one that immediatly springs to mind is Witch Hunter Tyrus:

http://darkheresy.wikia.com/wiki/Inquisitor_Tyrus

or possibly Hector Rex:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hector_Rex#.TujT77IoH3M

Hector is under Malleus quarantine, so it's unlikely him. Anyone know what happened to Tyrus though?

There have been thousands of famous and important inquisitors over the years. I really think it is futile to try and guess who it is. I get that theorizing can be fun, but we really have absolutely nothing to go on.

Pick a single officer from the British army over the past thousand years.
What is the liklihood of that officer being a Field Marshal?
There have been countless chapter masters, people clad in artificer/terminator armour over the ages. You're assuming it's a primarch because you really really want it to be a primarch, nothing more.

And why would something that's so common, interest Trazyn? Something as common as a Chapter master wouldn't be worth the line in the codex. The line was clearly meant to cause speculation, and indicate a Primarch. If it is or not, we'll never know since GW won't ever reveal what happened.

Primarchs are some of the most powerful beings in the universe. Definately powerful enough to **** over some ***** necron who tried to take him.

The Necrons shattered the C'tan, in which single a one at the Height of it's power could crush all the Primarchs at once. It' is certainly not out of the realm of possibility that A Race with vastly superior tech, could capture a Primarch, especially if they are completely unaware of the capabilities of the Necrons, which they would be.

Joey wrote:Pick a single officer from the British army over the past thousand years.
What is the liklihood of that officer being a Field Marshal?
There have been countless chapter masters, people clad in artificer/terminator armour over the ages. You're assuming it's a primarch because you really really want it to be a primarch, nothing more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:But why would Trazyn have a Chapter Master or Inquisitor as a trinket, even a "famous" one?

Chapter Masters and Inquisitors are a dime a dozen in the 40k universe relativly speaking. he isn't one for collecting something he could literally pick up any time and any place.

Primarchs are some of the most powerful beings in the universe. Definately powerful enough to dick over some [see forum posting rules] necron who tried to take him.

They're powerful but they have their limitations, and Necrons are considered to be the masters of realspace science. Even Guilliman is being held by regular old Imperium stasis field technology. The tricky bit really isn't holding a Primarch, it's getting them into a position to spring the trap.

Sasori wrote:

And why would something that's so common, interest Trazyn? Something as common as a Chapter master wouldn't be worth the line in the codex. The line was clearly meant to cause speculation, and indicate a Primarch. If it is or not, we'll never know since GW won't ever reveal what happened.

Again, the other two items mentioned in the same sentence are an inquisitors head and an enslaver. A chapter master would fit right in. He collects guardsmen for dioramas. How is a chapter master less valuable than anything else mentioned in his collection? Or an inquisitor. Or a man of iron. Or a famous warlord, xeno, custodes, lord of terra, rogue trader, champion of chaos, etc. etc. etc. There is no shortage of giants in power armor in the universe!

There is nothing favoring the primarch hypothesis over any other. There are several arguments against it, though none particularly strong or definitive.

So it is just vague. That's it.

I love the new Necron fluff. I bought a new Necron army because I read the codex. However, let's think about this for a moment. Most Necrons weren't even awake during the Horus Heresy, and all of the loyalist primarchs died or went missing within a few hundred years after the Heresy. I seriously doubt that Trazyn woke up that early. So, I am far more likely to believe that it was a chapter master or just some big giant of a guy in artificer armor.

Let's remember, he doesn't care about the details. Maybe he wanted a primarch. But since he coudln't get one, he simply took the closest equivalent - some chapter master who looked like a primarch, who is conveniently in artificer armor and put him in his collection.For all we know, maybe he wanted Abaddon (who is a lot more recent, and whose black crusades in the past might have aroused his interest). But since he couldn't get Abaddon because the guy is mostly in the eye of terror or all over the place. So he just grabbed a chaos lord and called it a day.

Space marine in ornate armor could just as easily be a chaos lord as well right? Mutations and chaos god gifts can easily make a chaos lord to become a "giant" of a man.

Eldenfirefly wrote:I love the new Necron fluff. I bought a new Necron army because I read the codex. However, let's think about this for a moment. Most Necrons weren't even awake during the Horus Heresy, and all of the loyalist primarchs died or went missing within a few hundred years after the Heresy. I seriously doubt that Trazyn woke up that early. So, I am far more likely to believe that it was a chapter master or just some big giant of a guy in artificer armor.

Let's remember, he doesn't care about the details. Maybe he wanted a primarch. But since he coudln't get one, he simply took the closest equivalent - some chapter master who looked like a primarch, who is conveniently in artificer armor and put him in his collection.For all we know, maybe he wanted Abaddon (who is a lot more recent, and whose black crusades in the past might have aroused his interest). But since he couldn't get Abaddon because the guy is mostly in the eye of terror or all over the place. So he just grabbed a chaos lord and called it a day.

Space marine in ornate armor could just as easily be a chaos lord as well right? Mutations and chaos god gifts can easily make a chaos lord to become a "giant" of a man.

He doesn't care about the details for his dioramas. So if he's setting up the last stand of the Cadian 522th, but ends up with a bunch of Valhallans, then he'd probably just take off the furry hats, maybe use some Army Painter primer to redo the basecoat, and call it a day. I'd suspect that anything he has as a stand alone exhibit would be a bit more accurate and a more unique item.

10,000 years isn't that big an error percentage wise, given how long the Necrons slept.

What I meant was that Trazyn was stil sleeping when the primarchs were active. By the time he awoke and was in a position to "capture" one, the primarchs were either dead, missing, or have become daemon princes. So, if he really wanted a primarch in his collection, then he would more likely have just used a chapter master instead. The codex says that the silent king only started to reawaken the necrons after he encountered the tyranids. And the tyranids didn't come into the galaxy until well after the horus heresy. According to the codex, the earliest awakenings was during the age of apostles.

Eldenfirefly wrote:What I meant was that Trazyn was stil sleeping when the primarchs were active. By the time he awoke and was in a position to "capture" one, the primarchs were either dead, missing, or have become daemon princes. So, if he really wanted a primarch in his collection, then he would more likely have just used a chapter master instead. The codex says that the silent king only started to reawaken the necrons after he encountered the tyranids. And the tyranids didn't come into the galaxy until well after the horus heresy. According to the codex, the earliest awakenings was during the age of apostles.

Presumably he would have aquired one of the missing ones. It is hard to refute them being captured as we don't know where they were or what they were doing. They could have been active somewhere, captured, or preserved somehow. I don't see this as being a problem to the primarch theory. Primarchs may have been available. We just don't know.

Again, that is what it comes down to. We just don't know. There is no strong evidence either way.

The loyalist primarchs can't live forever, unless they went into the eye of terror like Lemun Russ, where time may flow differently.

Its possibly but extremely unlikely. By the time Trazyn awoke and was active, all the loyalist primarchs would already be dead. Missing means missing in the warp (Like the Lion or Russ). While I think Trazyn is powerful, I doubt that he would want to venture into the warp just to look for and collect a primarch.

Same goes for the traitor primarchs. They are either dead, or become daemon princes. Missing would imply missing in the warp too. Necrons just aren't keen to venture into the eye of terror. Their Dolman gates gives them limited travel within the webway, but it doesn't mean they can travel freely through the warp. They don't have the astronimicon.

Eldenfirefly wrote:The loyalist primarchs can't live forever, unless they went into the eye of terror like Lemun Russ, where time may flow differently.

Actually they could. We don't know if they are immortal or not. They are made from the essence of the emperor, who is immortal. We just don't know.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:It could be Johnson. Giant man, dissapeared, venerable. I think it's Lion'el.

He's sleeping deep within the Rock. Lion El' Johnson is out.

I remember hearing a theory that it was Vulkan which made sense to me at the time, though I heard all the details second hand so I don't have sources. Wasn't Vulkan a smith who made his own armour (or worked on it at least), as well as being one of the larger primarchs? Mentioning the prisoner's size as being large, as well as describing his armour as baroque leant credence to the idea that it was Vulkan.

Also, I agree that the prisoner is a primarch. There would have been no need to mention it especially if it was one of the dime a dozen inquisitors or chapter masters. Plus, we don't know how long primarchs live, nor how long Trazyn's actually been active, or if he had connections with the Praetorians who never slept.

Personally, I'd consider Robot or Vulkan as the likely suspects. If he's capable of sneaking away the head of one of the Imperium's heroes, I'd think him capable of stealing a frozen Primarch. Coupled with the piece of fluff from the WD where he mentions Guillotine being an old friend...

Dytalus wrote:
Also, I agree that the prisoner is a primarch. There would have been no need to mention it especially if it was one of the dime a dozen inquisitors or chapter masters. Plus, we don't know how long primarchs live, nor how long Trazyn's actually been active, or if he had connections with the Praetorians who never slept.

Oh yeah, obviously they wouldn't mention something on the level of an inquisitor...like the one they mentioned in the exact same sentence. Why does everyone who brings up the point "inquisitors and chapter masters aren't important enough to mention" ignore the fact that the other two items listed are of that level of importance. It is like they said of a modern collection "he has on display a 16th century bible, a golden cup, and a 17th century suit of armor" and everyone interprets it as "OMG THE GOLDEN CUP IS THE HOLY GRAIL!!!! YOU KNOW IT IS THE HOLY GRAIL BECAUSE THEY WOULD NEVER MENTION ANYTHING LESS IMPORTANT LIKE SOME BOOK OR ARMOR OR SOMETHING!!!"

And why does everyone also always focus on inquisitors and chapter masters and ignore the numerous other examples that would make just as much sense, and more sense then a primarch: a man of iron, a chaos warlord, a famous rogue trader, etc. etc. etc.