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So, uh, yeah.

I've got some models I use as Sternguard Veterans, though technically the models are Dark Angels Veterans, and I'd hate to see bolter-wielding veterans removed entirely. But I can't see GW doing that after going to the trouble of making Sternguard vets in Finecast. A nerf I could probably deal with just fine, though; it wouldn't break my gameplay when I do use them.

Leman Russ Battle Tanks, Valkyries, Meltaguns, Hydra's, IG veterans, Stormtroopers,

I think I'm safe.

Btw, when does 6e come out anyway?

August sometime (AFAIK)

Thanks. I'll have to save up... again. Makes me wonder if I should buy anything before the new addition.

IHateNids wrote:August sometime (AFAIK)

July 7th actually, making is six and a half weeks away.

E: Nevermind. Not worth replying to a rude post.

Any good fluff.

Carnage43 wrote:

IHateNids wrote:August sometime (AFAIK)

July 7th actually, making is six and a half weeks away.

That's great (not). I'm playing in a tourney the weekend before 6th (I'm not sure why I think that is a bad thing)

Another model/unit I'm a little worried about is the Master of the Forge. I really like my 30 sternguard 3 ironclad list, but no MoF (or different SA) and that's all gone.

I doubt that will get taken away.

If the GK and BA codexs are anything to go by, normal dreads(and IClads) will move to heavy support and Venerables will remain as elites. Personally I think Venerable should just be an upgrade for all types of dreadnoughts.

Brother SRM wrote:E: Nevermind. Not worth replying to a rude post.

+1 for that sir.

Brother SRM wrote:When your armor is as thick as the tank you're inside, I think it's a possibility you'll survive.

Space Marines aren't AV11.

biccat wrote:
Space Marines aren't AV11.

No they're not, but their armor is supposed to be really tough. They can save against autocannon shots for a reason, and that kind of armor should better protect you than flak armor if you're inside a vehicle.

On the subject of SM Power Armor vs. Tank Armor, there's a weird disparity caused by the AP system.

For example, a Manticore is VASTLY more dangerous to a Land Raider than to a Marine, being Str 10 Ap 4 Ordnance Blast.

OTOH, a Lasgun is literally infinitely more dangerous to a Marine than a Land Raider, since it needs an 11 on a d6 to perturb the Land Raider, but only a 5 or 6 on the D6 to possibly kill a Marine.

Weird, that.

Unit1126PLL wrote:On the subject of SM Power Armor vs. Tank Armor, there's a weird disparity caused by the AP system.

For example, a Manticore is VASTLY more dangerous to a Land Raider than to a Marine, being Str 10 Ap 4 Ordnance Blast.

OTOH, a Lasgun is literally infinitely more dangerous to a Marine than a Land Raider, since it needs an 11 on a d6 to perturb the Land Raider, but only a 5 or 6 on the D6 to possibly kill a Marine.

Weird, that.

Yes, it's a naff mechanic that really needs to be re-evaluated. I'd be happy with getting rid of armour saves and armour values and armour penetration altogether and simply have a single Defense stat for all models.

I like save modifiers like Fantasy has much better.

Str 3 - normal save
Str 4 - -1
Str 5 - -2

etc.

So a Space Marine shot by a lasgun would get his normal save, but if hit by a Manticore he would lose his armor save. Or if he were hit by a heavy bolter he'd be saving on a 5+.

Cover of course would work differently (or you could have the same cover system, but start reducing the save for cover after the armor save has been reduced away).

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:On the subject of SM Power Armor vs. Tank Armor, there's a weird disparity caused by the AP system.

For example, a Manticore is VASTLY more dangerous to a Land Raider than to a Marine, being Str 10 Ap 4 Ordnance Blast.

OTOH, a Lasgun is literally infinitely more dangerous to a Marine than a Land Raider, since it needs an 11 on a d6 to perturb the Land Raider, but only a 5 or 6 on the D6 to possibly kill a Marine.

Weird, that.

Yes, it's a naff mechanic that really needs to be re-evaluated. I'd be happy with getting rid of armour saves and armour values and armour penetration altogether and simply have a single Defense stat for all models.

Maybe this is what all those rumors about moving 6e closer to WHFB are about. Kind of a hybrid 40k 2e and WHFB system (which would be fine by me... much simpler back then, just subtract).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:I doubt that will get taken away.

If the GK and BA codexs are anything to go by, normal dreads(and IClads) will move to heavy support and Venerables will remain as elites. Personally I think Venerable should just be an upgrade for all types of dreadnoughts.

I would be thrilled with dreads as heavies (maybe MoF allows them to be elite in 6e?) and +1 on Ven as upgrade (like in 4e).

Brother SRM wrote:No they're not, but their armor is supposed to be really tough. They can save against autocannon shots for a reason, and that kind of armor should better protect you than flak armor if you're inside a vehicle.

Their armor is weaker than the armor of the vehicle they're in that just expoded. If the explosion is enough to damage the vehicle, I'd suggest it would be enough to damage the Space Marine.

biccat wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:No they're not, but their armor is supposed to be really tough. They can save against autocannon shots for a reason, and that kind of armor should better protect you than flak armor if you're inside a vehicle.

Their armor is weaker than the armor of the vehicle they're in that just expoded. If the explosion is enough to damage the vehicle, I'd suggest it would be enough to damage the Space Marine.

It is not the explosion that damaged the vehicle. It is the vehicle being damaged that resulted in the explosion not the other way around

redkeyboard wrote:

biccat wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:No they're not, but their armor is supposed to be really tough. They can save against autocannon shots for a reason, and that kind of armor should better protect you than flak armor if you're inside a vehicle.

Their armor is weaker than the armor of the vehicle they're in that just expoded. If the explosion is enough to damage the vehicle, I'd suggest it would be enough to damage the Space Marine.

It is not the explosion that damaged the vehicle. It is the vehicle being damaged that resulted in the explosion not the other way around

Yes, the damage resulted in the ammunition / fuel of the vehicle being cooked off.

This explosion was of such magnitude that (for example) the Land Raider's adamantine and ceramic hull was completely shattered, and it's frame reduced to a flaming, unrecognizeable hulk, like that Bradley.

Why would Marines be practically unscathed, again?

biccat wrote:Their armor is weaker than the armor of the vehicle they're in that just expoded. If the explosion is enough to damage the vehicle, I'd suggest it would be enough to damage the Space Marine.

Actually, you're wrong. An autocannon, for example, will score a hit on the front armour of a Rhino 50% of the time, while a suit of power armour will shrug off an autocannon shell 66% of the time.

Granted it will only glance on a 4, and require a 5 or 6 to penetrate, but the point stands. Power armour is at least as resilient as armoured vehicles, and in some cases more resilient.

I always chocked it up to luck that the SM can survive a wound from heavy AT armies.
Besides who is to say the AC shell hit them? It may have hit the ground and exploded in the middle.

Kaldor wrote:

biccat wrote:Their armor is weaker than the armor of the vehicle they're in that just expoded. If the explosion is enough to damage the vehicle, I'd suggest it would be enough to damage the Space Marine.

Actually, you're wrong. An autocannon, for example, will score a hit on the front armour of a Rhino 50% of the time, while a suit of power armour will shrug off an autocannon shell 66% of the time.

Granted it will only glance on a 4, and require a 5 or 6 to penetrate, but the point stands. Power armour is at least as resilient as armoured vehicles, and in some cases more resilient.

Actually, you're wrong. A Lasgun, for example, will score a hit on the front armor of a Rhino NEVER% of the time, while a suit of power armor will shrug off a lasgun blast 66% of the time.

Granted, it will only wound on a 5, but the point stands. Power armor is not even in the same protective class as tank armor, and can hardly even be compared.

See? It works both ways.

Kaldor wrote:Actually, you're wrong. An autocannon, for example, will score a hit on the front armour of a Rhino 50% of the time, while a suit of power armour will shrug off an autocannon shell 66% of the time.

Autocannon vs. Rhino: "wound" (glance/pen) 4+, injure on a 3+ = 33% chance to hurt the vehicle.
Autocannon vs. SM: wound 2+, kill 2- = 55% chance to hurt the marine.

Nobz i can see them screwing my wound shenannigans

biccat wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Actually, you're wrong. An autocannon, for example, will score a hit on the front armour of a Rhino 50% of the time, while a suit of power armour will shrug off an autocannon shell 66% of the time.

Autocannon vs. Rhino: "wound" (glance/pen) 4+, injure on a 3+ = 33% chance to hurt the vehicle.
Autocannon vs. SM: wound 2+, kill 2- = 55% chance to hurt the marine.

Autocannon shots are actually kind of tricky to calculate on vehicles. Your shooting 2 shots, so what happens if the first shot destroys the vehicle -- should the second shot still count? (the answer is no) Secondly, what if you just stun the vehicle? Isn't that less dangerous than failing a save on a marine? 1 wound infantry are kind of all-or nothing for taking shots.

If your going to try and take the chances of a rhino being hurt by an autocannon, the values look something like this.
Assuming a non-TL AC shot by BS 4, this is what your odds are on having effects.
(per shot averages done though 100,000 simulations)
Total Shots Hit...........66.78%
Total Shots Missed....33.22%

Total Plinks................33.48%
Total Glances............10.97%
Total Penetrates........22.32%
Total Effects..............33.29%

(per 2 shots each turn)
Shaken Hits..................17.54%
Stunned Hits.................10.74%
Weapon Destroyed.......10.70%
Immobilized...................10.80%
Destroyed.......................7.17%
Exploded.........................7.15%
Destroyed or Exploded...14.32%

An autocannon shot has a 17.8% chance of killing the marine. Two of the shots has ~31% of killing the marine -- roughly twice the chance than killing a rhino, but the marine can't suffer ill effects (stunned, shaken, etc)
- Note the MEQ oods are a percentage I came up with in my head, and I would not bet my life on them The Rhino odds are quite solid.

Now bring Xeno weapons into the equation - BS3 Str10 AP4 on the Tyrannofex's Rupture Cannon - FAR more likely to affect the vehicle, but the exact same chance of killing the marine.

I really hope that lootas don't get moved to heavy support, but it looks like it may happen...

loota boy wrote:I really hope that lootas don't get moved to heavy support, but it looks like it may happen...

Why does it look like it might happen? What possible signs are out there?

Brother SRM wrote:

loota boy wrote:I really hope that lootas don't get moved to heavy support, but it looks like it may happen...

Why does it look like it might happen? What possible signs are out there?

Obviously we have a Astrologist amongst us

Anyway, can we get back on topic, rather than discussing wrecked results and the AP system?