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Hulksmash wrote:@12thronin

You're simply wrong. Penalties in the film industry were per film pre-released. For rentals in particular (as this is the industry I was intimately familiar with) as the cost was per film put out so if a small time rental store put out 3 copies of something they got hit for several thousand dollars per copy. You can't make that much money off of this and so it can actually put small time businesses out of business.

And if it was worth it why don't major retailers release early and damn the date? Answer, it's not. The cost is outrageous for a reason.

Actually, I'm not. You asked the "why" I was explaining the accounting side of it on a retailer and the impact of a penaltry can be gamed away through accounting tricks to have no real impact on your balance sheet. Rental agreements are a whole different animal and was not mentioned in your example. And Gamestop and other large gaming retailers break release dates on an a somewhat regular basis depending on the game and the local environments. Mom & Pop shops are an entirely different kind of organization from a major retailer as well and the penalties for a crafty M&P shop will be pretty much nothing. Get one who can't game the contract and the system, yeah they're likely hosed.

Testify wrote:
So your grand strategy, the thing that Games Workshop is doing wrong...genuinely is clamping down on leaks? Despite the fact that they've been in trouble before for leaking things with the LOTR? Do you also critisise them for charging for their products? Or paying a wage to their staff?
And *you* are calling *me* a troll?
I'm sorry but if your idea of marketing is to allow leaks, it somewhat invalidates your critisism of GW's marketing.

This.... just doesn't make any sense.

I think we're having a failure of communication here. Like we're not even in the same conversation.

Stop trying to win the Internet message board game and actually take the time to understand what people are saying.

I'm saying that leaks are an internal issue. Nothing that gets sent to an independent retailer or distributor should be considered secret. It's already leaving Games Workshop PLC and going to another legal entity. GW's attempt to control what another party does with information they get from GW (ie., the policy not to talk about new releases until they appear in White Dwarf and the pre-order date rolls around) is ridiculous.

When people have criticized GW's approach, you've gone onto a crazy tangent that if you criticize something, you have to offer up a fully developed alternative. That's just not reasonable or logical.

So that's why everyone you've been talking to has just been pointing at general proven marketing approaches that have held up for over a century. I even gave an example (Privateer Press) of a miniatures company that is pursuing such a strategy where they share things in all sorts of stages of development and availability. There are distributors who publish their future products sometimes five months ahead of time and PP doesn't try to stop them because they know that people talking about their products is a good thing for sales.

I don't know what more you want here. Or even really what your point is anymore. I don't know why you brought up paying staff or changing products. It literally makes no sense in the context of anything either of us has said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Testify wrote:
Riddle me this - why spend money on something that's public knowledge? To the extent that redshirts were advising people to hold off buying the 5th edition box set?
Everyone knew 6th was coming. A lot of the rumours may well have been sanctioned leaks - we don't know. What we do know is that, regardless of what GW did or did not do, it was bloody successful. Both the GW's I went into on the day of release had sold out.

You just made the case for a successful product launch that included lots of advance knowledge and speculation.

Under the current policy if an independent store would have told their customer that 6th edition was over and that starter wasn't the best buy, GW would sanction them and not ship them new releases until a month after their release date for 6 months.

People knew about 6th edition in advance-- in advance of the pre-order date-- and it sold well (atleast in the two GWs you went to). So why sanction people for talking about it in advance?

frozenwastes wrote:

Testify wrote:
So your grand strategy, the thing that Games Workshop is doing wrong...genuinely is clamping down on leaks? Despite the fact that they've been in trouble before for leaking things with the LOTR? Do you also critisise them for charging for their products? Or paying a wage to their staff?
And *you* are calling *me* a troll?
I'm sorry but if your idea of marketing is to allow leaks, it somewhat invalidates your critisism of GW's marketing.

This.... just doesn't make any sense.

I think we're having a failure of communication here. Like we're not even in the same conversation.

Stop trying to win the Internet message board game and actually take the time to understand what people are saying.

I'm saying that leaks are an internal issue. Nothing that gets sent to an independent retailer or distributor should be considered secret. It's already leaving Games Workshop PLC and going to another legal entity. GW's attempt to control what another party does with information they get from GW (ie., the policy not to talk about new releases until they appear in White Dwarf and the pre-order date rolls around) is ridiculous.

When people have criticized GW's approach, you've gone onto a crazy tangent that if you criticize something, you have to offer up a fully developed alternative. That's just not reasonable or logical.

So that's why everyone you've been talking to has just been pointing at general proven marketing approaches that have held up for over a century. I even gave an example (Privateer Press) of a miniatures company that is pursuing such a strategy where they share things in all sorts of stages of development and availability. There are distributors who publish their future products sometimes five months ahead of time and PP doesn't try to stop them because they know that people talking about their products is a good thing for sales.

I don't know what more you want here. Or even really what your point is anymore. I don't know why you brought up paying staff or changing products. It literally makes no sense in the context of anything either of us has said.

Not even slightly.
What do you think would happen if a games retailer leaked information about the new Call of Duty before launch date? And did so consistently?
Back when I had a job in the heady days of a month ago, I remember being privy to information from other companies that we were expected not to leak - we were only a small company, as were they, so there was no written agreement or anything, but had we leaked that info they wouldn't have dealt with us ever again.

And GW consistently sell out of new releases in their stores. How does that point to a failing marketing strategy?

Testify wrote:Weird how so many internet neckbeards have better marketing techniques than a profit making public company. I assume you guys are all on mega salaries.

Well, I don't really do much strategy work anymore, but I am an experienced, employed, clean-shaven professional advertising copywriter. So am I still the "internet neckbeard" in this conversation, or would that be *you* now?

FWIW, I thought GW was far too liberal in the old days. I'm not a fan of showing off a product until it can be shown in the best possible light. First impressions count too much. You don't see automakers showing off half-finished cars, right? Maybe they show a prototype at a car show. But it's a finished prototype with a mirror-like finish and an attractive model draped all over it. Furthermore, I don't think it makes sense to show off new product too far in advance of its actual release date. So I can't really blame them for making major changes regarding their sneak peaks. Similarly, I tend to agree that they're right not to put much investment into traditional media advertising. The bang for the buck probably isn't there.

But I think it's completely fair to question whether they could do more in the 30 days or so leading up to a major release. There's an old communications axiom that says you can't NOT communicate. A blackout can help you *lose* control of your message, because people will interpret and assign meaning even to absolute silence. I think that by only barely hyping even their biggest releases, GW almost communicates that said releases aren't a big deal, if that makes any sense. Note that with their Space Hulk "mystery box," there *was* an offer being made of some amazing, life-changing product...we just weren't completely sure what it was. It's a fundamentally different approach than a near-blackout.

I also think that their reliance and focus on WD betrays a highly unidirectional and old-fashioned mindset, which might not be the best approach given the age and tech savviness of their average customer. Maybe their digital agency will help here, but agencies are only as good as their clients are willing. So I think the jury will out for quite some time.

It seems ridiculous that GW would have to have this level of secrecy about their products unrelated to the Hobbit. GW's policies almost certainly have to be in place because THEY want them that way. But then sometimes clients/companies make ridiculous demands. So you never know. The deal almost certainly means a lot more to GW than it does to New Line, so GW may be willing to do whatever it takes to appease them, and New Line might be acting like Sauron himself. So while I think it's fair to be critical of their approach to releases, it's also fair to say we may be missing some important information.

punkow wrote:It's an horrribly unpleasant policy... but it's an effective one... Deal with it guys... GW is a company that has to sell stuff and they wouldn't do anything that would make them sell less.

You are not serious, are you? Have you followed the GW business decisions over the last few years? Or the financial reports proving that they indeed sell less products each year (sometimes barely compensated by 10% price increases)?
GW is a company that sells less and less each year, and they don't do anything to change that, deal with it.

Anyway, here a better copy of the letter, provided by williamsond over at Warseer:


"Sensitive release dates"? My personal experience is that the average gamer is not aware of new releases, as there is no advertising. They are surprised when they are informed about a new edition of 40k. Thinking that GW products are perishable products losing value after a week is not what I experience.

Gamesworkshop has to be the most mean-spirited, anti-fanbase company I've come across, though obviously worse exist out there (somewhere).

And yes yes, you can try and explain to me how the Stasi-esque secrecy makes sense from a business standpoint (which is questionable) and how they're making money (which is true). Doesn't change what I said.

Necroagogo wrote:You'd think an official communique wouldn't mistakenly use 'effect' when they meant 'affect' ...

You've never read a Games Workshop rulebook, have you?

Harriticus wrote:Gamesworkshop has to be the most mean-spirited, anti-fanbase company I've come across, though obviously worse exist out there (somewhere).

And yes yes, you can try and explain to me how the Stasi-esque secrecy makes sense from a business standpoint (which is questionable) and how they're making money (which is true). Doesn't change what I said.

Games Workshop - We Really Hate Our Fans, But Love Their Money.

or maybe ...

Games Workshop - We Hate Our Job, But The Shareholders Whip Us!

Noisy_Marine wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Gamesworkshop has to be the most mean-spirited, anti-fanbase company I've come across, though obviously worse exist out there (somewhere).

And yes yes, you can try and explain to me how the Stasi-esque secrecy makes sense from a business standpoint (which is questionable) and how they're making money (which is true). Doesn't change what I said.

Games Workshop - We Really Hate Our Fans, But Love Their Money.

or maybe ...

Games Workshop - We Hate Our Job, But The Shareholders Whip Us!

Games Workshop - We wish it was still 1998.

Games Workshop - Pay no attention to the other games behind the counter.

Krookawk wrote:

You are not serious, are you? Have you followed the GW business decisions over the last few years? Or the financial reports proving that they indeed sell less products each year (sometimes barely compensated by 10% price increases)?
GW is a company that sells less and less each year, and they don't do anything to change that, deal with it.

Well just goes to show that the corporation is hurting more than it wants the masses to know.

Been saying for quite awhile that they are losing their customer base regardless of their profitability.

Draconian policies are another symptom on just how hard up they are and the inability to adapt to current marketing strategies to make them competitive once again.

Wow... and I thought GW was bad enough for how far right their policies on new releases were...

I can understand the non disclosure agreement, but, I can't say I like their tactics...

I bet the person who sent that out pressed "Send" on their way out the door for two weeks holiday laughing as their oppos would have to deal with the resultant e-mails.

Someone decided it was a policy but a blanket letter is not suitable. How many times have you been wound up by a blanket warning meant for a minority? Warnings should be sent to those who constantly breach release or advance order dates but penalising discussion? A step too far.

gorgon wrote:FWIW, I thought GW was far too liberal in the old days. I'm not a fan of showing off a product until it can be shown in the best possible light. First impressions count too much. You don't see automakers showing off half-finished cars, right? Maybe they show a prototype at a car show. But it's a finished prototype with a mirror-like finish and an attractive model draped all over it. Furthermore, I don't think it makes sense to show off new product too far in advance of its actual release date. So I can't really blame them for making major changes regarding their sneak peaks. Similarly, I tend to agree that they're right not to put much investment into traditional media advertising. The bang for the buck probably isn't there.

All good points. Sneak peaks would be nice, but we don't need to be shown stuff 6 months to a year in advance or anything...2-3 months before release sounds reasonable enough.

I kinda like the previews for Dark Eldar, personally. When the new DE were first revealed it was at Games Day (one of the last times they showed off anything new at Games Day IIRC), and over the course of the next month or so they were showing off concept art and videos on the website with Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin talking about them. And then when the next wave came out (with the talos I think?) they showed some small "teaser" pics...I think the only part of the talos they showed was the carapace. In any case it wasn't the full model, but it was still something.

Then it turned into an e-mail where they basically just said "Grey Knights in April!", and nothing else until the models were up for advance order. And then...well, you know. :(

gorgon wrote:Note that with their Space Hulk "mystery box," there *was* an offer being made of some amazing, life-changing product...we just weren't completely sure what it was. It's a fundamentally different approach than a near-blackout.

I think Space Hulk could have been handled so much better...hell, revealing it a day or two sooner than they did would have been a huge improvement, because then it would have been something special for Games Day attendees. Could have even set up demos or something at the event.

Forge World used to do the jigsaw sneak peek approach. I never bought the models but liked the guessing game.

GW is at Gen-Con right now. It is the largest single gaming convention in the world. With the world of table-top, role-playing, board and card games watching wouldn't now be a fantastic time to promote the hell out of themselves, specifically with the next major release - the new 40K starter set?

FFG had a new card game whose name I can't even recall, and they had a couple of pallets worth sitting on the show floor. They were gone in 9 minutes. Can you imagine how quickly a pile of 40K starter sets would last? Not even half that. And then pics would start showing up online, word of mouth would spread, and then when it goes go up for pre-order next week (25th right?), everyone will be chomping at the bit to put their orders through. It would be a marketing coup for GW, probably their first since the LotR magazine.

Unless I'm missing something - and if I am by all means tell me; I am happy to be proven wrong here - there is no harm in using a massive gaming show and trade convention to push their own product, especially one of the most anticipated releases of the year. And wouldn't they rather have the buzz around their game be the pile of starter sets that was there one minute but gone the next at Gen-Con - the year's fastest seller - than getting annoyed because some chucklehead's gone and scanned some WD pictures of the Chosen models, cropped 'em and put 'em on Warseer?

Please, if I'm wrong tell me, but tell me why I'm wrong.

I agree with everything you just typed H.B.M.C.

On a side note, is Chapterhouse at Gencon... could be uncomfortable if the booths where close.

I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't want to sell a pallet full of starter boxes.

H.B.M.C. wrote:GW is at Gen-Con right now. It is the largest single gaming convention in the world. With the world of table-top, role-playing, board and card games watching wouldn't now be a fantastic time to promote the hell out of themselves, specifically with the next major release - the new 40K starter set?

FFG had a new card game whose name I can't even recall, and they had a couple of pallets worth sitting on the show floor. They were gone in 9 minutes. Can you imagine how quickly a pile of 40K starter sets would last? Not even half that. And then pics would start showing up online, word of mouth would spread, and then when it goes go up for pre-order next week (25th right?), everyone will be chomping at the bit to put their orders through. It would be a marketing coup for GW, probably their first since the LotR magazine.

Unless I'm missing something - and if I am by all means tell me; I am happy to be proven wrong here - there is no harm in using a massive gaming show and trade convention to push their own product, especially one of the most anticipated releases of the year. And wouldn't they rather have the buzz around their game be the pile of starter sets that was there one minute but gone the next at Gen-Con - the year's fastest seller - than getting annoyed because some chucklehead's gone and scanned some WD pictures of the Chosen models, cropped 'em and put 'em on Warseer?

Please, if I'm wrong tell me, but tell me why I'm wrong.

Once again, GW, you lose out to PP as I'd imagine their Iron Kingdoms RPG is more or less in the lead as fastest sold out thing at Gencon.

Has anyone seen the GW booth at GenCon? What DO they have there?

Presumably a giant plastic, motorised groin. Fans can pay $50, then go and stand in front of it so it can be repeatedly thrust backwards and forwards into their face. Then they leave... or is that Gamesday?

well their new threats sure didn't stop the new WD leaks of the starter set did they?

Yeah, I can't imagine that letter is going to work too well for White Dwarf...

"Games Workshop has suspended selling its magazine to Tesco/WHSmiths. In other news, sales of the White Dwarf magazine have taken a massive nosedive."

Well GW could do something sneaky and not put release info in White Dwarf. Oh wait, then they would not have anything to fill the pages.

Yeah, this whole thing just won't work.

I've recieved nothing like this.

I've had nothing mentioned to me by my sales rep.

For over a decade, US trade sales have had no streetdate other than major releases like a starter box or spacehulk.

Every year I check to make sure, every year the answer is "put it on the shelf as soon as you get it".

I'm thining this is a UK thing.

It probably is a UK thing (the letter is from the UK Trade Team).

Notice the letter is actually about selling before official release dates.

Given at least two independent shops local to me were selling the 6th edition rules book on the Thursday evening and Friday before release (to preordering 'regulars', not the general public), i can actually see why GW are a bit narky about it (whether such pre-selling is a good thing or not from an individual customer's point of view would largely depend upon whether they are one of the 'in-crowd' at a particular shop or not).

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:
It probably is a UK thing (the letter is from the UK Trade Team).

Notice the letter is actually about selling before official release dates.

Given at least two independent shops local to me were selling the 6th edition rules book on the Thursday evening and Friday before release (to preordering 'regulars', not the general public), i can actually see why GW are a bit narky about it (whether such pre-selling is a good thing or not from an individual customer's point of view would largely depend upon whether they are one of the 'in-crowd' at a particular shop or not).

Thing is, it's still ridiculously easy to bypass. A GW I once frequented did such a thing with army deals, when they came in on the thursday or friday all you had to do was pay in cash and they kept the box's barcode. Put the cash in the store's safe and scan the barcode through the till on saturday morning as soon as you open. No-one was the wiser.

Got a few army deals this way.

EDIT: Very nice on the new quote tracking function.

Sure, it can be bypassed. But it's surely not a thing to be encouraged -- unless of course you benefit. I know a lot of long time GW customers think they should get some sort of 'loyalty perks' (such as, for instance, getting new codices or rules a day or two early because the manager's their mate).

I don't actually care if folk are getting their books a bit early through slightly shady means -- GW still get their money so it's not like thieving via downloading codex pdfs. but equally i don't think it's unreasonable for GW to discourage this sort of thing either. However I know some people who were a bit narked that some folk were allowed to buy early whereas some (presumably not having passed some subjective measure of mateyness or loyalty) were not offered.

I know why the smaller shops do this, and I actually have some sympathy for them (their customers expect 'loyalty' to be rewarded not only by discounts but also preferential treatment, and if they dd not offer substantial discount and 'perks', they'd struggle to retain their 'loyal' customers. It's not easy being a small independent retailer where the customer is king).

 mikhaila wrote:
I'm thinking this is a UK thing.

It is also a Germany thing.

I remember being on the GW boards when I was about 15 (damn that's nearly 9 years ago). People were saying GW was crashing then, too. Despite rising profits

I also fail to see how GW's marketing is rubbish when they sell out of new releases almost immediately. But I guess you guys know better

Testify wrote:I remember being on the GW boards when I was about 15 (damn that's nearly 9 years ago). People were saying GW was crashing then, too. Despite rising profits
I also fail to see how GW's marketing is rubbish when they sell out of new releases almost immediately. But I guess you guys know better

1.) People notice that GW sells 5-10% less products for 7 years (barely compensated by price hikes of 10%) and think that this can't be good. They should sell about half the amount of products for about double the price by now, with respectively fewer customers. Noone spoke of an immediate crash, just an objectively happening demise.
2.) Why is selling 10.000 boxes of Space Hulk worse than selling 50.000? Hmmm, that's a tough one
3.) GW does no marketing or advertising. The times they sell best and gain the most new customers are, when others do the marketing and advertising (MB with Space Quest/Heroquest and DeAgostini with LOTR magazine).