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Kurce wrote:I don't understand why they can't use the same material they use for all of their other plastic stuff? For example, the material used in Dark Eldar Warriors, Wyches, Space Marine Tac Squad, etc. I have only ever seen one problem with those and that was with one of my Dark Eldar Raiders where the front part that joins together looked like it was partially melted (I had people think that I melted it on purpose to look like battle damage ). Other than that, I have never really had a problem with that material.

Because that material is injection moulded plastic and requires complex moulds that can costs hundreds of thousands of pounds to produce, hence why only best selling models are produced in plastic. The new resin stuff is supposed to be a halfway house; it enables GW to use slightly retooled, existing moulds that were used for the metal stuff but with a cheaper material.

fullheadofhair wrote:I thought I would wait and give it a chance before commenting. I went into my local GW on Friday and for the first time ever I actually got stick shock. There is a heck of a difference between talking about prices and then picking up a box and seeing the price and adding 10% tax to it. I really don;t think I am willing to pay those prices. As I have said before, double income no kids and high disposable income.

As to quality, 35% rate sounded dumb until I thought about what I saw in the store. Out of all the mini's I looked at most of them were sub-par - and here is the important bit - for the price they are asking for them.

What do you define as miscast? GW says 3%. For that to be the case they aren't including the models where part of a foot is missing or you can see the join between the cloak and armor is bubble and difficult to get to. Many of them were missing small pieces - but at that price they are charging I am expecting a lot better. As the prices have gone up so have my expectations and they simply cannot meet them. Yes, a little green stuff will fix it all - but at that price I am not expecting to have to do it.

By the way, what made me laugh was the huge slip miscast in the model cabinet for all to see - part of the marneus Calgar box set.

I revisted the e-mail and I'll quote him here as I don't want to misquote him by going off of memory...

To put the quality issues in perspective, the number of reported cases was less than 3% of the product sold which for resin miniatures is remarkably low.

I completely understand what you and others are saying and I'm not trying to defend the move at all because the prices going up means less value for what I allocate in my nerd budget each month. Additionally, I'm not a great modeller so I'll have a harder time fixing any inconsistencies than many that post on here. I couldn't even be bothered to straighten the slightly bent staff on my termie librarian I bought though it painted up much more easily than my experience with metal has been thus far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

filbert wrote:
Because that material is injection moulded plastic and requires complex moulds that can costs hundreds of thousands of pounds to produce, hence why only best selling models are produced in plastic. The new resin stuff is supposed to be a halfway house; it enables GW to use slightly retooled, existing moulds that were used for the metal stuff but with a cheaper material.

Good point. Here's hoping that we'll see an overall move towards plastic in the future as the current molds are replaced; this would address quality concerns and from what I understand be cheaper in the long run as the molds last longer and the product is less labor intensive.

fullheadofhair wrote:As to quality, 35% rate sounded dumb until I thought about what I saw in the store. Out of all the mini's I looked at most of them were sub-par - and here is the important bit - for the price they are asking for them.

I'm not targetting, your post just seemed like a good jumping off post for this:

Do you think the good ones are worth it at the price?-I do. I just see alot of people who argue why they "hate it"... but argue price and quality as if they were the same indistinguishable attribute, even when they've made clear they don't think any model should cost as much.

fullheadofhair wrote:What do you define as miscast? GW says 3%....

I'm sure GW's done what most companies do... they've done some sort of cost benefit analysis where by they screen the worst 3% as rejects and just replace whatever percentage are defective, because at some point the cost to screen exceeds the cost to replace. I realize its a big inconvenience but does anyone really want to spend more?

The majority of the Finecast models have had new molds for them, i.e. any of them with the sprue frame, at the very least. And these are things that are unlikely to see plastic, as they don't have the volume of sales, and requiring resculpting for plastic production. If anything does get converted for plastic, it will likely tie into an army release, and be more of a "core" choice, e.g. the Sister of Battle Exorcist.

As for the 3% reject rate, that's either their internal production rejection, or some sort of number massaging spin. In my purchases last week, out of 10 sprues (and thus, 10 different molds), I had one that I'd consider adequate. That's 90% right there. Yes, that's a tiny selection, but the condition of any one sprue has no bearing on any other. So, essentially, I rolled under 3 on a d100 nine times out of ten.

And, as I've noted, several of the Finecast issues are indicative of failed molds, not transient miscast issues. There were knowingly running and producing bad parts, so I find that 3% claim specious at best.

Alendrel wrote:...And, as I've noted, several of the Finecast issues are indicative of failed molds, not transient miscast issues...

Then its probably good that some have noted an abrupt change it spruing for certain models and the result is a visible improvements. Just gives credence to your read being a mold quality issue.

^^I kind of agree with this.^^

I had to go through 5 blister packs of Tau ethereal before I found 1 that was not miscast.

I will likely buy some of this FC stuff but I will only buy it in a GW shop and I'll open it there so I can inspect it and make exchanges of faulty casts. They will have to up their quality to an acceptable standard or they will loose cash hand over fist with miscast returns.

Do I find the good ones worth the cost?

No.

The material, for the cost is sub par.

It's too soft - doesn't cope with surfacing / sanding without burring up horribly. Frequently cleanup reveals air bubbles just under the surface. These aren't just cast issues - they're material mix issues.

It's too thermally reactive. I like dynamic poses. These require a certain rigidity in the material. If a warm day in my games room (a conservatory) warped a model I'd spent many hours working on I would be mightily pissed. If the material softens like that, it's just not suitable for the task it's pitched at.

mikhaila wrote:
Guess I got a pretty damn good batch of Finecast. Out of 200 blisters I've called in about 2 of them. Had one box get returned by someone and we replaced it. That's out of a couple dozen boxes sold.

35% is pretty damn big exaggeration IMO. Haven't heard of any independent retailers with anything like that. And bitching on retailer forums makes Dakka look quite mellow in comparison. If people had problems, they be screaming.

As usual, after pages of rants and hyperbole from others, Mikhaila shows up with actual facts.

Perhaps the reports of very high flaw rate is coming from folks looking through the leftovers at stores that haven't sent back the bad ones?

OMG, 52 pages allready!Lol!

Eilif wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
Guess I got a pretty damn good batch of Finecast. Out of 200 blisters I've called in about 2 of them. Had one box get returned by someone and we replaced it. That's out of a couple dozen boxes sold.

35% is pretty damn big exaggeration IMO. Haven't heard of any independent retailers with anything like that. And bitching on retailer forums makes Dakka look quite mellow in comparison. If people had problems, they be screaming.

As usual, after pages of rants and hyperbole from others, Mikhaila shows up with actual facts.

Perhaps the reports of very high flaw rate is coming from folks looking through the leftovers at stores that haven't sent back the bad ones?

And what makes Mikhailia's post facts, and the others hyperbole? Lots of people are posting the experiences they had, personally, which makes them just as valid as Mikhaila's.

For reference, my flaws were all from product purchased and examined as soon as the GW store opened on Saturday. And, even if it was just leftovers, the fact that there were that many bad leftovers is just as damning. It should all be good product on the shelf, and any bad product found should be removed, not left there.

Soul of Iron wrote:^^I kind of agree with this.^^

I had to go through 5 blister packs of Tau ethereal before I found 1 that was not miscast.

I will likely buy some of this FC stuff but I will only buy it in a GW shop and I'll open it there so I can inspect it and make exchanges of faulty casts. They will have to up their quality to an acceptable standard or they will loose cash hand over fist with miscast returns.

Ok, why are you buying an ethereal? I own 3 different models and have never fielded one and wouldn't have bought them if they weren't included in some trade/ebay transaction.

agnosto wrote:

Yeah, 35% seems like internet hyperbole. I've got an email response from Mark Wells (after I emailed the investor relations folks) that says they've had a reported defect rate at around 3% and that they're still working through some bugs in the new process and should see less problems going forward.

yes yes, because obviously Mark Wells doesnt have ANY vested interest in downplaying the defect rate at all.........

carmachu wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Yeah, 35% seems like internet hyperbole. I've got an email response from Mark Wells (after I emailed the investor relations folks) that says they've had a reported defect rate at around 3% and that they're still working through some bugs in the new process and should see less problems going forward.

yes yes, because obviously Mark Wells doesnt have ANY vested interest in downplaying the defect rate at all.........

And all the Henny Pennys running around pronouncing that the sky is falling are more correct? Nah. I'm not a GW apologist, nor am I an idiot so I would expect that the truth, like so much in life, is somewhere in the middle and not at either extreme. Besides, the 3% I was informed of is out of total whereas the mentioned 35% was specific to large/complex models only.

As an investor, I will be looking at the company's financials over the next two reporting periods and see whether it makes sense to maintain my investment and that holds true for all investors, with any company. Wells and co. are well aware of the facts in that unhappy investors means less bonus for them and less capital for the company; if nothing else, self-serving human nature will do much to make sure they don't run the company into the ground.

Well, I suppose its time to ask this thread to be moved to discussions as there isn't much news or rumor at this point in the thread. So if things had to be summed up, what can be said for both Pros and Cons regarding finecast miniatures?

Cons:
1. Product is too expensive regardless of the benefits.
2. Product is too susceptible to heat, deforming in display windows and in transport cases.
3. Product longevity is questionable. How long will it be before a model would need replacing?

Pros:
1. Product is easy to work with; cutting and shaping is a breeze.
2. Product is lightweight.
3. Product has slightly sharper detail.

With that summary, I'd love to wrap up this entire thread!

Alpharius wrote:With that summary, I'd love to wrap up this entire thread!

Unfortunately, there are some issues I have to take up with the summary

Rymafyr wrote:Well, I suppose its time to ask this thread to be moved to discussions as there isn't much news or rumor at this point in the thread. So if things had to be summed up, what can be said for both Pros and Cons regarding finecast miniatures?

Cons:
1. Product is too expensive regardless of the benefits.
2. Product is too susceptible to heat, deforming in display windows and in transport cases.
3. Product longevity is questionable. How long will it be before a model would need replacing?

Pros:
1. Product is easy to work with; cutting and shaping is a breeze.
2. Product is lightweight.
3. Product has slightly shbarper detail.

Firstly, no-one really knows how susceptible they actually are to heat until some testing has been done. There has been reports of minis bending in direct sunlight, and minis deforming in their blisters in shop windows, but this is in a greenhouse-type environment. No-one really knows whether ambient temperature alone is enough to damage them

Longevity - it looks like someone's flippant, offhand comment is in danger of becoming a nasty rumour if not stepped on. Someone made a joke that they were biodegradable; again, no-one knows the exact material composition but I think it is safe to assume that a plastic-type material won't biodegrade any time soon.

Detail - All the like for like comparison pics have thus far failed to conclusively demonstrate which is finer detail. The pics I have seen with both minis primed white has thus far not been conclusive. I think the whole detail thing is just marketing flim flam.

But yes, I think the thread needs to be moved before it buries the genuine news and/or rumour

I have seen and held in my hands 1 Fine Cast set: my buddy's Techmarine with servitors.

All of the bits were in tip-top shape. No miscasts that I could see. No air bubbles that I could see, and I was looking pretty closely at all of the sprues and bits.

So, they're batting 1.000 with me at the moment. I hope that some of the problems that have gone out to market (and shown in threads like these) get taken care of soon.

While I'm not a fan of resin over metal I did get a Finecast Autarch at the weekend and I can say mine was pretty good, a couple of small bubbles on the bottom of the cloak - but nothing that couldn't have happened with metal - other than that it was perfect.

filbert wrote:

Alpharius wrote:With that summary, I'd love to wrap up this entire thread!

Unfortunately, there are some issues I have to take up with the summary

Rymafyr wrote:Well, I suppose its time to ask this thread to be moved to discussions as there isn't much news or rumor at this point in the thread. So if things had to be summed up, what can be said for both Pros and Cons regarding finecast miniatures?

Cons:
1. Product is too expensive regardless of the benefits.
2. Product is too susceptible to heat, deforming in display windows and in transport cases.
3. Product longevity is questionable. How long will it be before a model would need replacing?

Pros:
1. Product is easy to work with; cutting and shaping is a breeze.
2. Product is lightweight.
3. Product has slightly shbarper detail.

Firstly, no-one really knows how susceptible they actually are to heat until some testing has been done. There has been reports of minis bending in direct sunlight, and minis deforming in their blisters in shop windows, but this is in a greenhouse-type environment. No-one really knows whether ambient temperature alone is enough to damage them

Longevity - it looks like someone's flippant, offhand comment is in danger of becoming a nasty rumour if not stepped on. Someone made a joke that they were biodegradable; again, no-one knows the exact material composition but I think it is safe to assume that a plastic-type material won't biodegrade any time soon.

Detail - All the like for like comparison pics have thus far failed to conclusively demonstrate which is finer detail. The pics I have seen with both minis primed white has thus far not been conclusive. I think the whole detail thing is just marketing flim flam.

But yes, I think the thread needs to be moved before it buries the genuine news and/or rumour

The summary was never meant to be conclusive or factual other than being topics still being discussed... Thus the request. So I concur whole heartedly.

Rymafyr wrote:Well, I suppose its time to ask this thread to be moved to discussions as there isn't much news or rumor at this point in the thread. So if things had to be summed up, what can be said for both Pros and Cons regarding finecast miniatures?

Cons:
1. Product is too expensive regardless of the benefits.
2. Product is too susceptible to heat, deforming in display windows and in transport cases.
3. Product longevity is questionable. How long will it be before a model would need replacing?

Pros:
1. Product is easy to work with; cutting and shaping is a breeze.
2. Product is lightweight.
3. Product has slightly sharper detail.

Erm, I guess you missed 60-70% of the posts in this thread, all talking about miscasts

aka_mythos wrote:
I'm sure GW's done what most companies do... they've done some sort of cost benefit analysis where by they screen the worst 3% as rejects and just replace whatever percentage are defective, because at some point the cost to screen exceeds the cost to replace. I realize its a big inconvenience but does anyone really want to spend more?

This reminds me of Fight Club, where Edward Norton is describing how his company compares the costs of a recall versus the lawsuits that they could be involved in and going with the lawsuits because they were projected to cost less in the long run.

Kroothawk wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Well, I suppose its time to ask this thread to be moved to discussions as there isn't much news or rumor at this point in the thread. So if things had to be summed up, what can be said for both Pros and Cons regarding finecast miniatures?

Cons:
1. Product is too expensive regardless of the benefits.
2. Product is too susceptible to heat, deforming in display windows and in transport cases.
3. Product longevity is questionable. How long will it be before a model would need replacing?

Pros:
1. Product is easy to work with; cutting and shaping is a breeze.
2. Product is lightweight.
3. Product has slightly sharper detail.

Erm, I guess you missed 60-70% of the posts in this thread, all talking about miscasts

Nope. Just figured it'd been done to death. Which is also why I left things open-ended. Also, I didn't want look biased by having more cons than pros. (Despite my obvious feelings for the FC)

Rymafyr wrote:Nope. Just figured it'd been done to death. Which is also why I left things open-ended.

Ah, a summary that deliberately leaves out the main points of discussion, very clever

Don't get me wrong. There should be zero miscasts in a product this expensive. Realistically those are eliminated before shipping, if GW were doing things right to begin with. I suppose I'm looking at miscasts as a quantifiable amount where as the other topics seem more subjective based on perspective.

Late to the party but it's more the better in my opinion. I ordered a big mek with SAG, the metal version was both unbalanced and easily broken with a ton of weight on one connection point. I have to order direct from GW no store local, or at least not within a reasonable drive.

First reaction on opening it in my dark bedroom, not bad... Then I looked at it more closely and hello customer service....

agnosto wrote:
And all the Henny Pennys running around pronouncing that the sky is falling are more correct? Nah. I'm not a GW apologist, nor am I an idiot so I would expect that the truth, like so much in life, is somewhere in the middle and not at either extreme. Besides, the 3% I was informed of is out of total whereas the mentioned 35% was specific to large/complex models only.

Did I say they were telling the truth either? No. But really, who is going to believe what the CEO of the company is going to say that all is well with a new product?

As an investor, I will be looking at the company's financials over the next two reporting periods and see whether it makes sense to maintain my investment and that holds true for all investors, with any company. Wells and co. are well aware of the facts in that unhappy investors means less bonus for them and less capital for the company; if nothing else, self-serving human nature will do much to make sure they don't run the company into the ground.

If you understand that unhappy investors means less bonus and less capital, then you know they will be more willing to take short term gains instead of long term ones. As judeged by at least one or two of their recent actions.

Further, You should be looking at the past couple years before deciding as well. Osbald here does an excellent analysis of them every time they come out. Generally speaking they all pretty much say the same- either gross is up or down, but what stays the same is less people are buying per unit, units get more expensive as they raise the prices. Unless that chances, its an unsustainable system.

Alendrel wrote:

Eilif wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
Guess I got a pretty damn good batch of Finecast. Out of 200 blisters I've called in about 2 of them. Had one box get returned by someone and we replaced it. That's out of a couple dozen boxes sold.

35% is pretty damn big exaggeration IMO. Haven't heard of any independent retailers with anything like that. And bitching on retailer forums makes Dakka look quite mellow in comparison. If people had problems, they be screaming.

As usual, after pages of rants and hyperbole from others, Mikhaila shows up with actual facts.

Perhaps the reports of very high flaw rate is coming from folks looking through the leftovers at stores that haven't sent back the bad ones?

And what makes Mikhailia's post facts, and the others hyperbole? Lots of people are posting the experiences they had, personally, which makes them just as valid as Mikhaila's.

For reference, my flaws were all from product purchased and examined as soon as the GW store opened on Saturday. And, even if it was just leftovers, the fact that there were that many bad leftovers is just as damning. It should all be good product on the shelf, and any bad product found should be removed, not left there.

I completely concur here. Who cares if ONE GUY got lucky on his order? I've personally seen the miscasts and issues, so have countless others. It's great that he's been having a good run of things, more power to him, I wish him luck in all of his future endeavors, but his word is hardly the word of God. Last time I checked, he's just a game shop owner that wasn't walking on water or healing the dying (correct me if I am wrong, oh please do.)

And great, so his "facts" are complementary to GW, what of it? It's nothing conclusive, just his two cents. Last time I checked, most game stores enjoy keeping the buzz on the products they carry positive to keep sales going, it only makes sense, yes? All of the local game store owners do the same thing, they'd be stupid not to unless the issues truly are hurting them. Only the ones that got screwed hard by unfortunately high numbers of defective product in their orders are the ones in the various local scenes around the globe that are pissed off and losing business, like the FLGS owners I know personally. One even said if things get worse, he WILL be posting on forums and throwing up a Youtube video to show people his problems with GW. It's all hinging on his future orders and what GW does about it. And personally, put yourself in his shoes, who can blame him? So should guys like me who see this crap going on where they game and hang out just shut up and live with it because Mikhaila and GW says so when it's creating drama at our FLGS and costing the local owners money? Let me answer that for you: Hell no.

People can disagree on whatever they want, but don't be so friggin' naive, finecast has big problems for many people, and they shouldn't be treated like liars and trolls because of it.

Bravo Thrax.

puma713 wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:
I'm sure GW's done what most companies do... they've done some sort of cost benefit analysis where by they screen the worst 3% as rejects and just replace whatever percentage are defective, because at some point the cost to screen exceeds the cost to replace. I realize its a big inconvenience but does anyone really want to spend more?

This reminds me of Fight Club, where Edward Norton is describing how his company compares the costs of a recall versus the lawsuits that they could be involved in and going with the lawsuits because they were projected to cost less in the long run.

Yes, many corporations faced this. One such example was Ford Pinto. The process to correct the life-threatening design flaws was more costly than the lawsuits for deaths caused by said design.

Thrax wrote:

Alendrel wrote:

Eilif wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
Guess I got a pretty damn good batch of Finecast. Out of 200 blisters I've called in about 2 of them. Had one box get returned by someone and we replaced it. That's out of a couple dozen boxes sold.

35% is pretty damn big exaggeration IMO. Haven't heard of any independent retailers with anything like that. And bitching on retailer forums makes Dakka look quite mellow in comparison. If people had problems, they be screaming.

As usual, after pages of rants and hyperbole from others, Mikhaila shows up with actual facts.

Perhaps the reports of very high flaw rate is coming from folks looking through the leftovers at stores that haven't sent back the bad ones?

And what makes Mikhailia's post facts, and the others hyperbole? Lots of people are posting the experiences they had, personally, which makes them just as valid as Mikhaila's.

For reference, my flaws were all from product purchased and examined as soon as the GW store opened on Saturday. And, even if it was just leftovers, the fact that there were that many bad leftovers is just as damning. It should all be good product on the shelf, and any bad product found should be removed, not left there.

I completely concur here. Who cares if ONE GUY got lucky on his order? I've personally seen the miscasts and issues, so have countless others. It's great that he's been having a good run of things, more power to him, I wish him luck in all of his future endeavors, but his word is hardly the word of God. Last time I checked, he's just a game shop owner that wasn't walking on water or healing the dying (correct me if I am wrong, oh please do.)

And great, so his "facts" are complementary to GW, what of it? It's nothing conclusive, just his two cents. Last time I checked, most game stores enjoy keeping the buzz on the products they carry positive to keep sales going, it only makes sense, yes? All of the local game store owners do the same thing, they'd be stupid not to unless the issues truly are hurting them. Only the ones that got screwed hard by unfortunately high numbers of defective product in their orders are the ones in the various local scenes around the globe that are pissed off and losing business, like the FLGS owners I know personally. One even said if things get worse, he WILL be posting on forums and throwing up a Youtube video to show people his problems with GW. It's all hinging on his future orders and what GW does about it. And personally, put yourself in his shoes, who can blame him? So should guys like me who see this crap going on where they game and hang out just shut up and live with it because Mikhaila and GW says so when it's creating drama at our FLGS and costing the local owners money? Let me answer that for you: Hell no.

People can disagree on whatever they want, but don't be so friggin' naive, finecast has big problems for many people, and they shouldn't be treated like liars and trolls because of it.

Unfrotunately, it is a sad fact of wargaming forums that you have a few members who have followings of sychophants who are ready to dogpile any contradictory arguement, regardless of its merits. Compounding this situation is the fact that some use the almighty Post Count as a replacement for credibility. We have even seen this week in the Swap Shop a seller call out a buyer based upon post count, defending themselves with their own post count and a mighty 10 Good Sales total... wow! If I didnt have 100+ on other forums I might be impressed by this... or not.

AvatarForm wrote:[
Unfrotunately, it is a sad fact of wargaming forums that you have a few members who have followings of sychophants who are ready to dogpile any contradictory arguement, regardless of its merits. Compounding this situation is the fact that some use the almighty Post Count as a replacement for credibility. We have even seen this week in the Swap Shop a seller call out a buyer based upon post count, defending themselves with their own post count and a mighty 10 Good Sales total... wow! If I didnt have 100+ on other forums I might be impressed by this... or not.

Yep, and then deleted.