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Anaxagoras wrote:I am not happy to pay almost 20$ for a single fig....However, the difference between what I expected to pay (about 12-14$) is not so much that I expect the figure to leap out of the packaging assembled, paint itself and then do my taxes...

I find it interesting that you still bought the model, despite it being roughly 50% more than what you were expecting to pay. For me, the threshold rests around 10-15%. At those levels, I can usually convince myself to buy it - with my tolerance topping out at around +20% expected price... At +50%, I'll usually just turn around and leave.

I am wondering how many of Finecast's defenders are suffering from the concept of escalating commitment... Most of the arguements revolve around:

"It's not so bad"
"Its not worse than what we had to put up with in metal"
"You can fix it easily by doing XXX"
"Its flaws are overstated"
"The flaws will decrease as the line matures"
etc. etc. etc.

To me, these kinds of arguements usually arise whenever I grossly overpay for what turns out to be a poor product (out of necessity, or by impulse) - and I am trying to rationalize / justify the purchase to myself so that I don't feel like a complete idiot. (This usually happens after I buy a "Limited Edition" anything)

keezus wrote:

Anaxagoras wrote:I am not happy to pay almost 20$ for a single fig....However, the difference between what I expected to pay (about 12-14$) is not so much that I expect the figure to leap out of the packaging assembled, paint itself and then do my taxes...

I find it interesting that you still bought the model, despite it being roughly 50% more than what you were expecting to pay. For me, the threshold rests around 10-15%. At those levels, I can usually convince myself to buy it - with my tolerance topping out at around +20% expected price... At +50%, I'll usually just turn around and leave.

I am wondering how many of Finecast's defenders are suffering from the concept of escalating commitment... Most of the arguements revolve around:

"It's not so bad"
"Its not worse than what we had to put up with in metal"
"You can fix it easily by doing XXX"
"Its flaws are overstated"
"The flaws will decrease as the line matures"
etc. etc. etc.

To me, these kinds of arguements usually arise whenever I grossly overpay for what turns out to be a poor product (out of necessity, or by impulse) - and I am trying to rationalize / justify the purchase to myself so that I don't feel like a complete idiot. (This usually happens after I buy a "Limited Edition" anything)

The arguments you mentioned are exactly that, attempted rationalizations and justifications for doing something you cognitively understand as foolish, at least when thinking analytically.

However...

Google the "Sunk Cost Fallacy" Theory and you'll understand this aspect of human nature a little better. People defend this stuff because they're so emotionally and thus financially invested that they don't even want to start thinking about pulling the plug on their hobby, or at least living with the "incomplete" armies they already have. GW knows all about this little psychological tendency, as do many businesses that sell collectables and hobby related materials - they rely on it to sustain sales because it's the very thing that keeps a lot of the people who are "on the fence," buying their product. Maybe some of those here should read up and understand this concept, too. Might learn something about your own motivations. Maybe you don't care. Either way. Your choice. Ignorance is bliss, they say.

keezus wrote:

Anaxagoras wrote:I am not happy to pay almost 20$ for a single fig....However, the difference between what I expected to pay (about 12-14$) is not so much that I expect the figure to leap out of the packaging assembled, paint itself and then do my taxes...

I find it interesting that you still bought the model, despite it being roughly 50% more than what you were expecting to pay. For me, the threshold rests around 10-15%. At those levels, I can usually convince myself to buy it - with my tolerance topping out at around +20% expected price... At +50%, I'll usually just turn around and leave.

I am wondering how many of Finecast's defenders are suffering from the concept of escalating commitment... Most of the arguements revolve around:

"It's not so bad"
"Its not worse than what we had to put up with in metal"
"You can fix it easily by doing XXX"
"Its flaws are overstated"
"The flaws will decrease as the line matures"
etc. etc. etc.

To me, these kinds of arguements usually arise whenever I grossly overpay for what turns out to be a poor product (out of necessity, or by impulse) - and I am trying to rationalize / justify the purchase to myself so that I don't feel like a complete idiot. (This usually happens after I buy a "Limited Edition" anything)

I'm also not happy to pay almost 4$ a gallon for gas, or 200$ a month utilities. I also view my GW hobby as a luxury that I have been happy to have for 20 some years. Don't overthink it, or attempt to explain my habits or divine my feelings...

I have never been "happy" with GW prices, even when I first got into the hobby. It has always been a luxury item. I also don't look at them as "pieces" to play a game...this is a hobby and my hobby takes time and money. I expect easily between 5-50 hours of "use" from this purchase. Between 2-4 hours of painting and assembly and then a "margin" of the hours and hours I will play this army. It is a hobby, and I enjoy my time in the hobby.

I am emotionally invested in the world GW has created, that has been a source of joy for easily 20 years, and the dozens or so armies I have built and played with over those years. I do not see any other game system that combines the quality with the variability of GW, and nothing even comes close to the plastic kits that GW provides. Frankly, had they not made finecast that painboy would have been assembled from plastic components and Greenput.

I don't have to rationalize/justify anything to myself, and certainly not to you. I have the money, I wanted that fig-I bought that fig. Done. I am satisfied with my purchase.

You find that in a lot of things. Like a certain well known twin cylinder bike.
It handles like a pig, the carbs go out of balance. And people pay more because of the name.

But ask a owner and he'll say there great.

1 He's not going to admit how stupid he's been
2 He might want to sell it, so best not to say how crap it is.

BTW it's not american

And good for you, lad. Keep on doing what makes you happy. Nobody has asked you to justify or rationalize anything. (Certainly not me.)

Your entire post is proof that you do it, however, and your pride is your own. If you're happy with where your money goes, good on you. That's for you to decide and nobody else.

However, the fact is, intuitive-emotional thinking is why you spend the large sum of money you do. You cannot change that fact, or argue it, it is what it is. Accept it, as you have, and it shouldn't bother you in the least, as you claim it doesn't. Whether others agree with you or disagree, is, in turn, their decision to make and not yours.

Be that as it may...

Everyone does it, it is the basis for nearly all consumer-related purchases. There certain aren't too many "Spock-types" out there, now are there?

Anaxagoras wrote:

I'm also not happy to pay almost 4$ a gallon for gas, or 200$ a month utilities. I also view my GW hobby as a luxury that I have been happy to have for 20 some years. Don't overthink it, or attempt to explain my habits or divine my feelings...

I have never been "happy" with GW prices, even when I first got into the hobby. It has always been a luxury item. I also don't look at them as "pieces" to play a game...this is a hobby and my hobby takes time and money. I expect easily between 5-50 hours of "use" from this purchase. Between 2-4 hours of painting and assembly and then a "margin" of the hours and hours I will play this army. It is a hobby, and I enjoy my time in the hobby.

I am emotionally invested in the world GW has created, that has been a source of joy for easily 20 years, and the dozens or so armies I have built and played with over those years. I do not see any other game system that combines the quality with the variability of GW, and nothing even comes close to the plastic kits that GW provides. Frankly, had they not made finecast that painboy would have been assembled from plastic components and Greenput.

I don't have to rationalize/justify anything to myself, and certainly not to you. I have the money, I wanted that fig-I bought that fig. Done. I am satisfied with my purchase.

...

Truer words have never been spoken.

But you do rationalize and justify what you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be posting here about it. I'm not debating the morality of your point of view, but you cannot possibly deny that you rationalize your hobby expense because the very nature of this conversation is the antithesis of that argument.

Thrax wrote:But you do rationalize and justify what you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be posting here about it. I'm not debating the morality of your point of view, but you cannot possibly deny that you rationalize your hobby expense because the very nature of this conversation is the antithesis of that argument.

Exactly what I was thinking. "Wasn't that entire post a rationalization. . .?"

Thrax wrote:But you do rationalize and justify what you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be posting here about it. I'm not debating the morality of your point of view, but you cannot possibly deny that you rationalize your hobby expense because the very nature of this conversation is the antithesis of that argument.

I think what Anaxagoras meant (and correct me if I'm wrong Anax) is that there is a subtle difference between analyzing every detail of the purchase and making a rationalization. It's hard, if not impossible, to NOT try to rationalize actions, but to some people it is not about that, or it is so trivial it does not warrant any deep thoughts.

The opponents of Finecost say the proponents are always making excuses and rationalization why the rise in price is acceptable, but are they not also making rationalizations in their own mind why it is unacceptable to them? How can one's rationalization of this be targeted in such a manner?

loki old fart wrote:You find that in a lot of things. Like a certain well known twin cylinder bike.
It handles like a pig, the carbs go out of balance. And people pay more because of the name.

But ask a owner and he'll say there great.

1 He's not going to admit how stupid he's been
2 He might want to sell it, so best not to say how crap it is.

BTW it's not american

Triumph my neighbor is one of those people....god damned hipster..

Vandil wrote:

loki old fart wrote:You find that in a lot of things. Like a certain well known twin cylinder bike.
It handles like a pig, the carbs go out of balance. And people pay more because of the name.

But ask a owner and he'll say there great.

1 He's not going to admit how stupid he's been
2 He might want to sell it, so best not to say how crap it is.

BTW it's not american

Triumph my neighbor is one of those people....god damned hipster..

Nah not a triumph, but I can see your thinking

puma713 wrote:

Thrax wrote:But you do rationalize and justify what you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be posting here about it. I'm not debating the morality of your point of view, but you cannot possibly deny that you rationalize your hobby expense because the very nature of this conversation is the antithesis of that argument.

Exactly what I was thinking. "Wasn't that entire post a rationalization. . .?"

Think of it this way-to rationalize in this instance implies that the decision was initially irrational, and that some further effort needs to be taken...

Buying a new army when you are three months behind in rent requires some rationalizing. Spending my hobby money on GW figs does not.

Several posts in this thread have dipped into the realm of implying that "people are stupid to be satisfied with finecast."

I wish people would focus on the more useful elements-actually calmly assessing heat resistance, getting a feel for how common/serious/fixable miscasts are, and general discussion about the new product without the need to either paint GW as some cultish horrid entity, or GW supporters as some brainless fanbois.

My hope is to finish painting my painboy and chuck him in a metal can and give a good shake to test paint adhesion. I'll post pics when I do...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redscare wrote:

Thrax wrote:But you do rationalize and justify what you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be posting here about it. I'm not debating the morality of your point of view, but you cannot possibly deny that you rationalize your hobby expense because the very nature of this conversation is the antithesis of that argument.

I think what Anaxagoras meant (and correct me if I'm wrong Anax) is that there is a subtle difference between analyzing every detail of the purchase and making a rationalization. It's hard, if not impossible, to NOT try to rationalize actions, but to some people it is not about that, or it is so trivial it does not warrant any deep thoughts.

The opponents of Finecost say the proponents are always making excuses and rationalization why the rise in price is acceptable, but are they not also making rationalizations in their own mind why it is unacceptable to them? How can one's rationalization of this be targeted in such a manner?

Pretty close-see my post above.

Anaxagoras wrote:]
I wish people would focus on the more useful elements-actually calmly assessing heat resistance, getting a feel for how common/serious/fixable miscasts are, and general discussion about the new product without the need to either paint GW as some cultish horrid entity, or GW supporters as some brainless fanbois.

Just because people have posted heatedly doesn't mean that they haven't calmly assessed their thoughts or purchases. The problem (and the reason that people are getting aggravated) is that many have focused on positive things - but the negatives have outweighed them. They have evaluated the fact that they are paying more for a product that is in some ways inferior. And the ways that it has been advertised as being superior are not worth the exaggerated costs. Is the super-fine detail (which has been reviewed thus far as "meh, it's okay") worth not only the extra money that you're paying, but also the repair-work that you have to do, the lack of heat resistance and the roll-of-the-dice chance that you may have to return your piece, thus costing you more time, gas and stress?

You'd think if something were causing you those things, that it would be something that was cheaper, something that was poorly-made, something that was not somehow supposed to revolutionize the hobby. Maybe that is what people are mad about, rather than just trying to paint GW in some sort of antogonistic light.

OK, at 54 pages in counting, this thread has almost reached its conclusion.

Please remember to stay on topic, stay polite...

This is the only public warning that will be posted.

After this, it will be Official Warnings and possibly Suspensions.

Thanks!

Here a comment by someone not known for hyperbole or hysteria, the Warseer mod Wintermute:

Wintermute wrote:

Inquisitor Kallus wrote:Interesting question. I wonder if its as bad as the internet makes it out to be. My 'real life' friends/gamers i've only heard one complaint from

Based on my personal experience, its worse. I visited a GW store to take a look at the Finecast minis and considered each an every blister I looked at to be unsaleable.
(...)
I'll concede on the health issues but I don't think the Finecast minis are as advertised by GW. Yes GW will replace bad minis (which, to their credit, they have always done) but the quality of the Finecast minis is unacceptable, so much so I would not and will not buy them based on personal experience (see above) and the increasing tide of complaints now surfacing.
(...)
At what point will GW be forced to carry out a product recall as a result of a complaint to Trading Standards?

Thrax wrote:..."Sunk Cost Fallacy"...

The saying "In for a penny, in for a pound" is the direct result of this particularly human thought process. The self imposed notion that past investment justify the decision to continue investment even when rational thought tells you otherwise. How many people say: "GW's prices are now too high, so I will just finish this (unit, army, armies)..."?-a good number, but if it truely were too high the rational choice would be not to continue putting money into something that has proven time and time again to get only more expensive over time.

To put it another way, if until now you never invested time, energy, and money into 40k or WHFB would you still want to spend those thousands of dollars?-If you could cash out and get all your money back, instead of spending another cent, would you?

It is a standard principle of accounting too.

And the source of the apothegm, "Never throw good money after bad".

The same principle applies in warfare. You should only reinforce and support successful attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is also a principle of good betting. The money in the pot isn't yours any more. It has been spent.

Putting together my finecast Death Jester and Shadow Seer for a my FLGS GW painting comp

I'm finding the detail is better and very, very crisp,

but the material is very brittle and is easy to chip; I had to perform quite a few repairs with green stuff when I was over eagre with the scalpal. Also having to bend a miscast shuriken cannon wasn't very entertaining.




It is much less forgiving than metal, that's for sure

Thrax wrote:But you do rationalize and justify what you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be posting here about it. I'm not debating the morality of your point of view, but you cannot possibly deny that you rationalize your hobby expense because the very nature of this conversation is the antithesis of that argument.

"Shouldn't you be out on a ledge somewhere?"

edit: hit submit too soon. I meant to also complement on you on being very thought-provoking. More thought-provoking than I wanted from a message board during my downtime from school and work, but nonetheless interesting.

Was not able to open and go thru them, but I finally saw the Finecast stuff in the blisters at the FLGS. I could only really find miscasts on a single fig, an Etheral that was missing a small corner of his headdress and part of his pointing hand. The Zoanthrope had a TON of flash, as in the frame was pretty much a solid sheet of tissue paper thin resin. Otherwise I was able to observe problems with any of the figs inside the packs.

We got out a chunk of sprue and were playing with it with a heat gun and car dash, and it does make me nervous how easily it gets soft, but that was mostly anecdotal playing with and not hard testing of what temperatures causes problems. I think that problem there is what will keep me from getting Any finecast, as I often have armies stored in my car or non-air conditioned house.

Aduro wrote:
We got out a chunk of sprue and were playing with it with a heat gun and car dash, and it does make me nervous how easily it gets soft, but that was mostly anecdotal playing with and not hard testing of what temperatures causes problems. I think that problem there is what will keep me from getting Any finecast, as I often have armies stored in my car or non-air conditioned house.

I went to three GW stores before choosing a Shadowseer that I liked. It pays to look at each blister if you can, but be wary of the details you cannot see through the packaging.

Alpharius wrote:OK, at 54 pages in counting, this thread has almost reached its conclusion.

Please remember to stay on topic, stay polite...

This is the only public warning that will be posted.

After this, it will be Official Warnings and possibly Suspensions.

Thanks!

Does it really count if its not in RED?

On Topic: I have challeneged my local GW store to provide me with a flawless Finecast Canis Wolfborn...

I wonder how many kits they will be required to open in order to rise to the challenge.

AvatarForm wrote:

Alpharius wrote:OK, at 54 pages in counting, this thread has almost reached its conclusion.

Please remember to stay on topic, stay polite...

This is the only public warning that will be posted.

After this, it will be Official Warnings and possibly Suspensions.

Thanks!

Does it really count if its not in RED?

On Topic: I have challeneged my local GW store to provide me with a flawless Finecast Canis Wolfborn...

I wonder how many kits they will be required to open in order to rise to the challenge.

I cant imagine they'll go through with that when they have to send them to be repackaged xD

Was speaking to the manager of a near by GW and way he summed it up was " embaresd " and " rushed out " .

GW FLGS had Canis Wolfborn in the display to compare between metal and finecast, unpainted.

The detail was better on the finecast one, particularly the nose. Visibly crisper.



They'd already cleaned up both though, which I think is fair. I didn't see any imperfections on either.

severedblue wrote:GW FLGS had Canis Wolfborn in the display to compare between metal and finecast, unpainted.

The detail was better on the finecast one, particularly the nose. Visibly crisper.



They'd already cleaned up both though, which I think is fair. I didn't see any imperfections on either.

Gah! I wish people would stop repeating this nonsense!

The only way to accurately and fairly compare detail between the two is to prime both, probably in a grey or white colour. That reduces the differences that occur due to specular reflection. You cannot put both models side by side and make a fair comparison on detail because of the way that metal reflects light and resin doesn't.

The only pictures that have been posted thus far (on Dakka anyway) that show both minis side by side and primed the same way show no difference in detail whatsoever. The extra detail gumph that has been put out by GW is simply a PR stunt to help justify the increase in cost quite frankly.

See this thread and post:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/372163.page#2881499

If you ignore the pitting on the metal mini and the bubbles on the resin mini, detail wise, there isn't much to separate these two. I would even go as far as to suggest if you had two minis, one resin, one metal, free from casting imperfections and primed them the same and put them side by side, I think anyone would be hard pressed to tell them apart.

filbert wrote:
Gah! I wish people would stop repeating this nonsense!

The only way to accurately and fairly compare detail between the two is to prime both, probably in a grey or white colour. That reduces the differences that occur due to specular reflection. You cannot put both models side by side and make a fair comparison on detail because of the way that metal reflects light and resin doesn't.

Thank you, I learned something today.

My rule always is you can tell the difference if you can feel it with your thumbnail. In a display case it would be visual so point taken. I will paint up my two finecast models and see how they compare after painting.

filbert wrote:

severedblue wrote:GW FLGS had Canis Wolfborn in the display to compare between metal and finecast, unpainted.

The detail was better on the finecast one, particularly the nose. Visibly crisper.



They'd already cleaned up both though, which I think is fair. I didn't see any imperfections on either.

Gah! I wish people would stop repeating this nonsense!

The only way to accurately and fairly compare detail between the two is to prime both, probably in a grey or white colour. That reduces the differences that occur due to specular reflection. You cannot put both models side by side and make a fair comparison on detail because of the way that metal reflects light and resin doesn't.

The only pictures that have been posted thus far (on Dakka anyway) that show both minis side by side and primed the same way show no difference in detail whatsoever. The extra detail gumph that has been put out by GW is simply a PR stunt to help justify the increase in cost quite frankly.

See this thread and post:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/372163.page#2881499

If you ignore the pitting on the metal mini and the bubbles on the resin mini, detail wise, there isn't much to separate these two. I would even go as far as to suggest if you had two minis, one resin, one metal, free from casting imperfections and primed them the same and put them side by side, I think anyone would be hard pressed to tell them apart.

I know that I have a lot easier time painting and converting and playing with a lightweight plastic/resin figure than a heavy tin figure. Are you going to tell me also that's "nonsense?" I'm not "repeating it" from anywhere.

ImperialTard wrote:

I know that I have a lot easier time painting and converting and playing with a lightweight plastic/resin figure than a heavy tin figure. Are you going to tell me also that's "nonsense?" I'm not "repeating it" from anywhere.

What's that got to do with anything? I was responding directly to the comments that severedblue made in regards to comparing detail, hence why I quoted what he posted. You can use the quote function as a handy way of highlighting that you are addressing a particular poster, post or comment you know

Good for you that you find resin easier to work with. I'm sure it is. However, there is an awful lot of rumour, supposition and misinformation floating about regarding the metal/resin switch and it needs to be curtailed.

AvatarForm wrote:

Alpharius wrote:OK, at 54 pages in counting, this thread has almost reached its conclusion.

Please remember to stay on topic, stay polite...

This is the only public warning that will be posted.

After this, it will be Official Warnings and possibly Suspensions.

Thanks!

Does it really count if its not in RED?

On Topic: I have challeneged my local GW store to provide me with a flawless Finecast Canis Wolfborn...

I wonder how many kits they will be required to open in order to rise to the challenge.

Yes.

It would be difficult to argue that that post was anything but a clear moderation type post.
Some of us don't use red.