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JohnHwangDD wrote:

LunaHound wrote:I think the point is , people think Land Raider wont be able to survive the drop ,

Except, the LR is AV14 all around - it's the toughest thing in the game short of a Monolith (which also DS, IIRC).

So what's the problem again?

Monoliths teleport. Theres no force of impact.

The Star Wars vid is cool, but thats how you drop off stuff outside the enemy AT firing range. Safe and easy.

DSing a LR in the middle of a battlezone? Pay the points for a Thunderhawk and cringe when i shoot it down. Espeically when the wreck of a Thunderhawk comes down on top of your LR crushing your 500+ points and reaching around 1000 with the Thawk.

No its just my suspspension of belief that gets crushed under the LR treads. Rulewise i wish for LRs in front of my 4melat Havocs to appear .

I've updated the first post with a really good summary. Not mine, though.

Voronesh wrote:DSing a LR in the middle of a battlezone? Pay the points for a Thunderhawk and cringe when i shoot it down. Espeically when the wreck of a Thunderhawk comes down on top of your LR crushing your 500+ points and reaching around 1000 with the Thawk.

Yeah, because the rest of your army probably won't have anything better to do than watch the skies for a transport ship from somewhere. Who cares about the army that's rushing towards you, or are already upon you, on the ground?

where are the pictures/drawings of the stormraven that are supposedly floating around. I have to see what this thing looks like.

And transports with holy battletanks strapped to them always carry an insignificant amount of noname troops.

Uhh right.....

Ever seen what a single AA Missile does to your transport? Not a big allocation of force in my eyes. If my DIY heretic chapter is fighting BA which would be known for such shenanigans id be bringing firepower for something like that or redivert my Obliterators.

We can keep at this arguement forever, but i still think that playing it safe with a Thawk is not the way to represent a DS LR. Cause that would allow me to shoot it down crushing a significant amount of troops.

Hot dropping it out of a zoomzoom Thawk would not endanger the Thawk, but seriously hurt the LR....

Show me the option that does not lead to utter failure. Fluffwise. I like the rulesidea.

Droppods with Locator beacons and then guide em in. Seems cool, i just consider DS LR as args as Dreadnoughts reeling in Baneblades. Or a Reaver Titan right. Reaver titan stomp. Oops.

Seregon wrote:

Voronesh wrote:DSing a LR in the middle of a battlezone? Pay the points for a Thunderhawk and cringe when i shoot it down. Espeically when the wreck of a Thunderhawk comes down on top of your LR crushing your 500+ points and reaching around 1000 with the Thawk.

Yeah, because the rest of your army probably won't have anything better to do than watch the skies for a transport ship from somewhere. Who cares about the army that's rushing towards you, or are already upon you, on the ground?

They already had rules for dropping in land raiders. They involved buying the thunderhawk, flying onto the table, and dropping the land raider. A thunderhawk doesn't just fly over and let go of the tank, and it has less armor than the thing that it's transporting. This is 38 thousand years in the future so I'm sure they have the tech to do it, but it's dumb. They also should have the tech to accurately put a lance shot from a space ship on every enemy soldier they want to kill in seconds. There's suspension of disbelief and then there is stupid. This is stupid. It is stupid you could suspend your disbelief for, but that just means your suspending disbelief for a stupid thing.

If a landraider has an over 75% chance to survive the best long ranged weapon (Tau Rail Gun) in the game why not just drop it from a little higher up with some anti-grav. The T-Hawk swoops over the field from a significant height and drop the Landraider w/a counter grav sled. Sled only kicks in once it get's to a certain height (think Star Trek movie but with anti-grav). The scatter is the effect of retards trying to shoot the dropping LR and nudging it to the side like

Wow is half of this thread going to be devoted to land raiders deep striking? Whats so hard about abstractly thinking about them being dropped by thunderhawks?

I guess 5th ed removed peoples abstract thinking abilities as well as abstract rules!

On another note, Mephiston is actually better than other Y6 models simply by the fact that he can ride in transports and be hidden by squads infront.. I think people will change their tune when a non-MC hits them with 7 S10 attacks that reroll hits and possibly wounds at I7

I find the flying brick from space to be not as ridiculous as the overcharged seige engine for busting speedy bunkers or anything at all to do with the librarian dread (I not only break internal 40k fluff but my reaver titan dragging magna-grapple is comical in the extreme) but I still find it silly.

It's not really a case of applying strict logic as it is suspension of disbelief. For some reason Space Marines dropping specialised pods from space into the enemy just seems cool and I have no issue with it. But them dropping their main battle tanks directly onto the enemy's position just seems silly.

I have a similar problem with the magna-grapple. Its an absolutely ridiculous idea (lets drag tanks closer!) that would work fine if it was an orky weapon but as a marine weapon we kind of expect it to make more sense.

I have yet to read it but from early reports in my opinion this is the first bad codex GW have released since daemons. Not because I think it is OP (although some stuff seems a little extreme at first glance and viewed in isolation i.e. if vanguard get heroic intervention AND descent of angels, the flying libby dread with his "blood talons", the "just like jaws but better against all targets except low init multi-wound creatures" power, mephiston and the ability to have all your troops sporting FnP and Furious Charge for about 150pts. Presumably these will be pointed appropriately or require compromises in list design to use) but because;

some of the fluff is just silly

the most powerful builds that leap out do not back up the fluff. Jump packs? Death Company? Sod em. BA are all about preds, dreads, razors and raiders.

it treads all over the design space of other chapters rather than giving the BA a decent niche (BT are the land raider based army? Not anymore.)

rules that ae simply unfun for your opponent (principally dante)

I prefer, in every way, that fandex that came out.

Astorath the Grim – Armed with Power Axe, pistol and Jump Pack
Described as an Uber Chaplain. Apparently, if he is with the Death Company, they can re-roll Hits and Wounds.
Shadow of the Primarch - Causes all units with Red Thirst to suffer it on a 1-3.
Hits at S6 in Close Combat and forces Invulnerable Saves to be re-rolled
Removes 0-1 restriction on Death Company

This guy is so money.. he's so money he doesn't even know it.

Awesome stats and an awesome fig. /drool

Too bad I'll have to hack him up to make a new Mephiston :(

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I find the flying brick from space to be not as ridiculous as the overcharged seige engine for busting speedy bunkers or anything at all to do with the librarian dread (I not only break internal 40k fluff but my reaver titan dragging magna-grapple is comical in the extreme) but I still find it silly.

It's not really a case of applying strict logic as it is suspension of disbelief. For some reason Space Marines dropping specialised pods from space into the enemy just seems cool and I have no issue with it. But them dropping their main battle tanks directly onto the enemy's position just seems silly.

I have a similar problem with the magna-grapple. Its an absolutely ridiculous idea (lets drag tanks closer!) that would work fine if it was an orky weapon but as a marine weapon we kind of expect it to make more sense.

I have yet to read it but from early reports in my opinion this is the first bad codex GW have released since daemons. Not because I think it is OP (although some stuff seems a little extreme at first glance and viewed in isolation i.e. if vanguard get heroic intervention AND descent of angels, the flying libby dread with his "blood talons", the "just like jaws but better against all targets except low init multi-wound creatures" power, mephiston and the ability to have all your troops sporting FnP and Furious Charge for about 150pts. Presumably these will be pointed appropriately or require compromises in list design to use) but because;

some of the fluff is just silly

the most powerful builds that leap out do not back up the fluff. Jump packs? Death Company? Sod em. BA are all about preds, dreads, razors and raiders.

it treads all over the design space of other chapters rather than giving the BA a decent niche (BT are the land raider based army? Not anymore.)

rules that ae simply unfun for your opponent (principally dante)

I prefer, in every way, that fandex that came out.

Agreed; this appears to be stepping on the BT schtick here.....I don't have a problem with DS LR's as it would stand to reason that other marine chapters do this as well.
I suppose that according to the BA new fluff addition is that maybe they are more specialized in this sort of operation.

Having assault squads with access to Razorbacks and all still seems to me to be a serious encroachment on the Black Templars along with the LR's as dedicated transports for most units.

I now have to wonder what the Black Templars will be like in their new release......

Can anyone confirm for me if Death Co can take a Land Raider as a deticated transport?

Also I saw someone else ask this question but I dont know if it got answered: Do Chaplians still allow us to actually control DC, or is DC going to be running all over the place like the World Eaters from the previous CSM codex?

Wow is half of this thread going to be devoted to land raiders deep striking? Whats so hard about abstractly thinking about them being dropped by thunderhawks?

It's the first real abstraction to be asked for. Most other deep strike forms simply involve teleportation, parachutes, or having THE MODEL PERFORMING THE DEEP STRIKE EXIST ON THE TABLE (ala land speeder storm, raiders, valkyries, etc).

I don't see the imperial guard getting to deep strike leman russes despite the valkyrie being capable of transporting them. I don't see battlewagons getting dropped from roks and I don't see orks getting shot out of canons. It's the second largest tank in the game next to the monolith, and no other space marine book can do this. People are bitching because it's silly.

So basically blood angels pay more points to get fast vehicles and safer deep striking.

I hope everyone who plays blood angels deep strikes as many raiders as possible. Assuming you cant assault out of it when it lands that puts you safely in my melta range.

I didnt check, but im assuming blood angels still get 3+ invuln hammer terminators. If so, I am certainly going to buy dante and attach his dumbass to 10 of those next time i play planetstrike.

Kirasu wrote:Whats so hard about abstractly thinking about them being dropped by thunderhawks?

That part. Being dropped by Thunderhawks.

This thing does not just do a low-flight over the battlefield, scream 'brace for impact' over the vox, and then bombs away.

It's absurd. I'm in complete agreement with Shummy over this.

Aren't Assault Marines assumed to be jumping out of Thunderhawks when they Deep Strike?

Fetterkey wrote:Aren't Assault Marines assumed to be jumping out of Thunderhawks when they Deep Strike?

From high altitude, and they control their descent using the giant rocket packs attached to them. To drop a land raider the thunderhawk would practically have to land, which is incredibly dangerous. Hence why it's never done in the fluff (getting shot down means the loss of both the thunderhawk and the land raider and everyone inside).

I kind of assume that Land Raiders have some kind of strap-on rockets or whatever that slow their descent. We'll have to see what the fluff says.

I don't think anything would have to near land to deploy a raider. I could see needing to get low enough to not drop it from more than it's own height. But insertion could be very swift. I don't think you would be dropping raiders next to AA platforms (for fluff sake, maybe it would work in game).

I'm just going to toss my land raider on the table and see where it lands... why bother rolling dice since we are going for such realism in our 40k games.

jabbakahut wrote:I don't think anything would have to near land to deploy a raider. I could see needing to get low enough to not drop it from more than it's own height. But insertion could be very swift. I don't think you would be dropping raiders next to AA platforms (for fluff sake, maybe it would work in game).

That makes perfect sense.

Problem is in 40k any good AT weapon can be turned into an AA weapon at this point ^^.

Yeah its kinda like a nerd battle right now, who believes it works and who doesnt. I still think you dont wanna do it in a hot zone.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kirasu wrote:Whats so hard about abstractly thinking about them being dropped by thunderhawks?

That part. Being dropped by Thunderhawks.

This thing does not just do a low-flight over the battlefield, scream 'brace for impact' over the vox, and then bombs away.

It's absurd. I'm in complete agreement with Shummy over this.

You know 40k has invisible grav-chute tech, right? Just look at every single 4ed IG army

Daggermaw wrote:where are the pictures/drawings of the stormraven that are supposedly floating around. I have to see what this thing looks like.

Check page four of codex space wolves.

lord_blackfang wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kirasu wrote:Whats so hard about abstractly thinking about them being dropped by thunderhawks?

That part. Being dropped by Thunderhawks.

This thing does not just do a low-flight over the battlefield, scream 'brace for impact' over the vox, and then bombs away.

It's absurd. I'm in complete agreement with Shummy over this.

You know 40k has invisible grav-chute tech, right? Just look at every single 4ed IG army

You mean like 3rd Ed Orks having bikes that emit smoke hindering enemy shooting, but not their own shooting?

Voronesh wrote:You mean like 3rd Ed Orks having bikes that emit smoke hindering enemy shooting, but not their own shooting?

Well, it not like Orks actually aim while shooting anyway.

Kirasu wrote:Wow is half of this thread going to be devoted to land raiders deep striking? Whats so hard about abstractly thinking about them being dropped by thunderhawks?

I guess 5th ed removed peoples abstract thinking abilities as well as abstract rules!

On another note, Mephiston is actually better than other Y6 models simply by the fact that he can ride in transports and be hidden by squads infront.. I think people will change their tune when a non-MC hits them with 7 S10 attacks that reroll hits and possibly wounds at I7

7 attacks?

mmm... 4 + CCw + charge = 6...

why 7?

he has S10, wings and reroll powers... isn't true?

insaniak wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote: That drop system isnt used to insert tanks into the middle of enemy lines.....like the LR is able to do. Its meant to drop tanks a discreet distance from the battle.

That's because modern aircraft aren't shielded by metre-thick Madeupiumite armour and faith in an undying psychic deity, and piloted by frothing loonies with a penchant for high collars and chainsaws...

We also have a thing called chaff, it kinda helps save us from heat seaking missiles.

Deadshane1 wrote:
I doubt an actual thunderhawk would HURRY to a hot zone. They may be equipped to do so, but the chapter mourns the loss of a single suit of terminator armour. Don't you think that T-hawks would be an even greater loss?

Just because we CAN do something, doesnt mean that we MUST do something.

I'm betting thunderhawks would only drop a LR in the middle of a hot zone in the direst of circumstances...otherwise if possible, it would be a discreet distance away.

And because terminator suits are so valued, they send them in to space hulks and risk loosing them instead of keeping them in the chapter musuem. The point of that fluff was supposed to emphisise the honor in wearing one of those things, only the chapters best get them.

Same probably applies to thunderhawks dropping Landraiders, the space marines would do it if the battle favoured that tactic, except only the chapters best pilots would get to fly them. And like insaniak said, space marines are very nearly insane

Also, of all the chapters, BA are probably the most eager to go to battle, they leap out of the thunderhawk mid flight rather then waiting to land, so i'm pretty sure that the pilots would probably take all speed to the battlefield

coteaz wrote:
7 attacks?

mmm... 4 + CCw + charge = 6...

why 7?

The Sanguinor?

ShumaGorath wrote:It's the first real abstraction to be asked for. Most other deep strike forms simply involve teleportation, parachutes, or having THE MODEL PERFORMING THE DEEP STRIKE EXIST ON THE TABLE (ala land speeder storm, raiders, valkyries, etc).

Marines deploying by Drop Pod Assault didn't have a Drop Pod model on the table when the rule was first introduced.

Yeah, that was a little silly as well... Just pointing out that this isn't actually a first.