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I think that people are mostly moaning that deepstriking LR's are broken, and are biast in nearly every way against it. I think it's completely plausible fluff wise, but of all the tanks GW could've chosen to deepstrike, the landraider? This has got to be one of GW's cheesiest sales ideas ever.

Edit: damn multi-post

Deadshane1 wrote:

coteaz wrote:
7 attacks?

mmm... 4 + CCw + charge = 6...

why 7?

The Sanguinor?

hem.. 575 pts for QG..

As cool as the special characters sound and look, does anyone else notice that they cost about the same as a land raider? I just can't see spending that much on a single guy . ...

Questions that were above:

1. Yes you can take SS/TH Terminators, but you have to pay more - it's not a free swap like vanilla Marines.
2. No there isn't anything to control your DC - apparently Chaplains just let you reroll hits and wounds for DC.
3. Here's my problem with deepstriking landraiders, probably with a boatload of terminators inside. Based on the size of the model, I wouldn't risk doing it unless there was a teleport beacon nearby. Second, your in reserve Turn 1, then start rolling to come in turn 2. Hopefully you get it, so your in Turn 2. You can't assault or anything that turn, so it's already turn 3 before your guys can disembark and kill stuff. So - hopefully with good rolling, your looking at 3 turns maybe from your Termis. Not sure it's really worth that risk, plus considering you've dropped your nice expensive Land Raider near half range for every melta weapon/MC that your opponent has.
4. Dedicated Transports - yes DC can take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport. If I was doing a list, I would seriously think about a LR Crusader and throwing all the DC in it - helps alleviate the Rage rule since they don't have to charge if embarked on a transport.
5. Problem I have with the magna grapple is that you don't get your 2D6 when you shoot it at a vehicle for your penetration. So - Str 8, but usually if it's AV13 or AV14 your looking at a 5 or 6 to draw it in.
6. I really hope those are typos on the IC part about Mephiston and some of the others - not being able to attached to squads, no eternal warrior and no invul save makes him a bit dicey for the points cost. With the prevalence of runic weapons, psychic hoods, shadows of the warp, etc. etc., it's not guaranteed that he'll get off every power to turn him into a monster.

warhammersupernerd wrote:I think that people are mostly moaning that deepstriking LR's are broken, and are biast in nearly every way against it. I think it's completely plausible fluff wise, but of all the tanks GW could've chosen to deepstrike, the landraider? This has got to be one of GW's cheesiest sales ideas ever.

Edit: damn multi-post

You see im the other way around. I think its balanced, cause theres enough melta to go around for such a threat, and i think they brok ethe fluff to sell more Land Raiders. Like taking the BT shtick using LR as dedicated transports.

Voronesh wrote:

warhammersupernerd wrote:I think that people are mostly moaning that deepstriking LR's are broken, and are biast in nearly every way against it. I think it's completely plausible fluff wise, but of all the tanks GW could've chosen to deepstrike, the landraider? This has got to be one of GW's cheesiest sales ideas ever.

Edit: damn multi-post

You see im the other way around. I think its balanced, cause theres enough melta to go around for such a threat, and i think they brok ethe fluff to sell more Land Raiders. Like taking the BT shtick using LR as dedicated transports.

I actually quite agree with you that this isn't broken, and I'm glad you agree. I just also think that this will probably help sell more land raiders.

So do you put all 30 DC in one big squad or can you break them up into smaller units?

insaniak wrote:

KOS wrote:We are talking about the fact that a Thunderhawk should get over an enemy line, hover (maybe) open its hatch and permit a Land Raider to get out... are we joking ?

The Thunderhawk variant that transports tanks has cradles for them underneath. No hatch opening... they can just swing in low and release the tank on the way over. Thusly.

I know they have also the craddles, but in both ways is just plain stupid. You don't release a vehicle from the sky unless you want it to get broken. Yes, even for the old tractor of the STC known now as Land Raider.

Has anyone seen the Lucifer Armoured Task Force Datasheet for Apoc... Cause it allows for you to deepstrike Land Raiders and Preadators, (Baal and C:SM variety). It even says they are combat dropped by Thunderhawk Transporters in the rules. The fluff says the force was designed by Tycho of the BA's... Land Raiders in the task force are also fast. So the concept existed before the BA dex. This is just its 40K incarnation.

Not that I would ever deepstrike a Landraider, ever. I don't even field them to begin with. But the ability does not make me warm up to the idea.

Just thought it bring this to light, as I found it intresting that rules to this effect have already been written by GW... oh heres the Link for you curious people.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=3400020

warhammersupernerd wrote:I think that people are mostly moaning that deepstriking LR's are broken, and are biast in nearly every way against it. I think it's completely plausible fluff wise, but of all the tanks GW could've chosen to deepstrike, the landraider? This has got to be one of GW's cheesiest sales ideas ever.

Edit: damn multi-post

Sure it's plausible and fits some fluff. I like the concept.

The thing that bothers me about it is that there's no additional cost for a substantial upgrade to the unit. LR variants are not more expensive yet can appear anywhere, out of thin air. There are locator beacons all over the Blood Angels army, on Scout Bikers and Tac Squad Sergeants in Fast Rhinos, for example. This means they will be able to appear without error deep in their opponent's territory, pop smoke to get a 4+ cover save and require 6's to be hit in assault against AV14. Next turn a LR Crusader can deliver 15 Death Company + a Reclusiarch into assault anywhere within say 20" of that point.

That ability costs 15 points (for a locator beacon) more than a standard LR.

Cheese.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I don't see battlewagons getting dropped from roks and I don't see orks getting shot out of canons.

Actually, I beg to differ. That's just the Orkiest thing ever.

What is a locator Beacon and what units have access to them?

I thought there was only Teleport Homers, and they only granted their benefit to Terminators who Teleport.

Care to fill me in?

skrulnik wrote:What is a locator Beacon and what units have access to them?

I thought there was only Teleport Homers, and they only granted their benefit to Terminators who Teleport.

Care to fill me in?

It's basically the exact same thing, but works for all deep striking. Scout bikers get them, drop pods can get them, I think scouts might be able to get them, and Marneus Calgar can get one in the vanilla Marine codex.

The stormraven can also take a beacon. Which puts their skies of blood rule in a new light: boost it 24", DS out the back with a combat squadded AS w/ triple meltas EXACTLY where you want due to the locator beacon and light up someone's tank. And with PotMS on the lander, you can shoot a TL multi-melta at another tank.

0ldsk00l wrote:The stormraven can also take a beacon. Which puts their skies of blood rule in a new light: boost it 24", DS out the back with a combat squadded AS w/ triple meltas EXACTLY where you want due to the locator beacon and light up someone's tank. And with PotMS on the lander, you can shoot a TL multi-melta at another tank.

If it survives. A 12/12/10 skimmer isn't an easy thing to keep alive when it's alone in the middle of the front line of an enemy army for a turn. The Stormraven doesn't have scout, so it doesn't get to Valk up first turn.

I am liking Murdious Huricane and Tempist Wrath more and more

KOS wrote:You don't release a vehicle from the sky unless you want it to get broken.

Except, as was already mentioned (and backed up with video evidence) this is done even by today's military.

The Land Raider is a tank built with fictional advanced materials and fictional technology in the far future, which is capable (according to 3rd or 4th edition fluff) of having a mountain collapse on top of it and still remain functional. The idea that such a tank would be able to withstand being dropped a short distance from a moving transport isn't really that much more of a stretch.

Darknite wrote:The thing that bothers me about it is that there's no additional cost for a substantial upgrade to the unit.

That would only be accurate if this upgrade was retrospectively applied to every other army as well. Points costs aren't calculated on a stand-alone basis in 40K. The points cost of a unit is worked in relation to that unit's effectiveness in the army as a whole.

I haven't seen the codex yet, and to be honest haven't been paying a great deal of attention to the lists of points costs being bandied about, but it's entirely possible that this ability is offset somewhat by increased costs on other items or units in the codex, and by the fact that the LR can only be taken as a dedicated transport... which to some extent does increase the cost of it.

Darknite wrote:Sure it's plausible and fits some fluff. I like the concept.

The thing that bothers me about it is that there's no additional cost for a substantial upgrade to the unit. LR variants are not more expensive yet can appear anywhere, out of thin air. There are locator beacons all over the Blood Angels army, on Scout Bikers and Tac Squad Sergeants in Fast Rhinos, for example. This means they will be able to appear without error deep in their opponent's territory, pop smoke to get a 4+ cover save and require 6's to be hit in assault against AV14. Next turn a LR Crusader can deliver 15 Death Company + a Reclusiarch into assault anywhere within say 20" of that point.

That ability costs 15 points (for a locator beacon) more than a standard LR.

Cheese.

You're aware that deep striking a Land Raider is pretty close to useless, right? Nobody deep strikes Assault Terminators. Deep striking a Land Raider is like doing that except that you have an extra 250 points of vehicle dropping right into the enemy meltaguns.

I keep hearing conflicting accounts on how much deathcompany are. I've heard that they are 20 base and +5 for a jump pack in one place and 20 + 15 for a jump pack in other places. Does anyone know for certain? Given their drawnbacks, i'd be very surprised if they were 35 points a models still without having rending.

Except, as was already mentioned (and backed up with video evidence) this is done even by today's military.

For dropping vehicles behind lines or into regions where there are no airstrips. They do not lowfly a multimillion dollar incredibly vulnerable transport aircraft to drop a tank onto some dudes roof position.

The Land Raider is a tank built with fictional advanced materials and fictional technology in the far future, which is capable (according to 3rd or 4th edition fluff) of having a mountain collapse on top of it and still remain functional. The idea that such a tank would be able to withstand being dropped a short distance from a moving transport isn't really that much more of a stretch.

This is the same game where a deffrolla has good odds of killing it. Just because it's 38 thousand years in the future (where infantry warfare makes no sense anyway) doesn't mean it's not a stupid and unfluffy addition.

I haven't seen the codex yet, and to be honest haven't been paying a great deal of attention to the lists of points costs being bandied about, but it's entirely possible that this ability is offset somewhat by increased costs on other items or units in the codex, and by the fact that the LR can only be taken as a dedicated transport... which to some extent does increase the cost of it.

The land raiders at least are the exact same points cost as vanilla marines. Other items like dev squad plasma and lascannons and dreadnaught lascanons got a points reduction (much needed).

insaniak wrote:Points costs aren't calculated on a stand-alone basis in 40K. The points cost of a unit is worked in relation to that unit's effectiveness in the army as a whole.

In theory, yes. But units in 40K are so often designed in a vacuum that this often doesn't apply.

dereksatkinson wrote:I keep hearing conflicting accounts on how much deathcompany are. I've heard that they are 20 base and +5 for a jump pack in one place and 20 + 15 for a jump pack in other places. Does anyone know for certain? Given their drawnbacks, i'd be very surprised if they were 35 points a models still without having rending.

It's 20 base and 15 for a jump pack with black rage, fnp, furious charge, relentless, and fearless.

warhammersupernerd wrote:We also have a thing called chaff, it kinda helps save us from heat seaking missiles.

Chaff defeats radar. Flares are used to defeat heatseeker. Just sayin'.

ShumaGorath wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:I keep hearing conflicting accounts on how much deathcompany are. I've heard that they are 20 base and +5 for a jump pack in one place and 20 + 15 for a jump pack in other places. Does anyone know for certain? Given their drawnbacks, i'd be very surprised if they were 35 points a models still without having rending.

It's 20 base and 15 for a jump pack with black rage, fnp, furious charge, relentless, and fearless.

Is it just me or is that kind of a pricey unit considering the rest of the codex?

do i like the deep striking land raiders? no. i don't like anything that costs the same amount as an identical entry but gets additional choices/benefits, like landraiders now and the various incarnations of stormshields. does it break the game? certainly not. the size of the landraider and the fact it still deviates is a natural limit as is the fact that even if it doesn't deviate it's by design within melta range of the enemy army. i'm actually a fan of GW making the chapters play differently, like with templars getting LR spam, DA with terminator/bike spam, and BA jump pack spam. i'd have preferred if they kept the LR on the ground and a limited dedicated transport option. other than that, my only "problem" with the codex is that it has too many choices. too many dreads, too many "elite" marines (honor guard, vanguard, and sanguinary guard all fill the same role), to many FNP jumpers (i don't know what to do with my death co now!). thanks to giga bytes cafe for letting customers peruse their copy! i only wish i lived closer to them, lol.

DC are actually extremely well costed at 20pts.. The problem are jump packs cost 15 for some odd reason. Theyre basically khorne berserkers who get rage, FNP and relentless. Stormraven isnt that fragile and its actually a lot tougher to stop a tank that can move 24", shoot at you and dump off troops that can shoot or assault (vanguard) you with no disadvantage.. It can hide behind cover for a 4+ save (There is no reason it has to be on a valkyrie base as there are PLENTY of skimmer transports that are on.. normal bases)

dereksatkinson wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:I keep hearing conflicting accounts on how much deathcompany are. I've heard that they are 20 base and +5 for a jump pack in one place and 20 + 15 for a jump pack in other places. Does anyone know for certain? Given their drawnbacks, i'd be very surprised if they were 35 points a models still without having rending.

It's 20 base and 15 for a jump pack with black rage, fnp, furious charge, relentless, and fearless.

Is it just me or is that kind of a pricey unit considering the rest of the codex?

Not just you at all, that makes very little sense to me. 15 point jump packs on a unit with Rage seems pretty fething stupid. But I guess I'm a real 40K player now, I've got me a unit that gets to sit on the shelf and look at me all sad now.

Neconilis wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:I keep hearing conflicting accounts on how much deathcompany are. I've heard that they are 20 base and +5 for a jump pack in one place and 20 + 15 for a jump pack in other places. Does anyone know for certain? Given their drawnbacks, i'd be very surprised if they were 35 points a models still without having rending.

It's 20 base and 15 for a jump pack with black rage, fnp, furious charge, relentless, and fearless.

Is it just me or is that kind of a pricey unit considering the rest of the codex?

Not just you at all, that makes very little sense to me. 15 point jump packs on a unit with Rage seems pretty fething stupid. But I guess I'm a real 40K player now, I've got me a unit that gets to sit on the shelf and look at me all sad now.

I paint frowny/sad faces on units like that

What is everyone worried about the Flying Land Raiders.
-15x Death Company [Points?]
-1x Preist for the Re-Rolls [Points?]
-1x LRC with all the bells and whistles [Points?]

How many points is that?

Neconilis wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:I keep hearing conflicting accounts on how much deathcompany are. I've heard that they are 20 base and +5 for a jump pack in one place and 20 + 15 for a jump pack in other places. Does anyone know for certain? Given their drawnbacks, i'd be very surprised if they were 35 points a models still without having rending.

It's 20 base and 15 for a jump pack with black rage, fnp, furious charge, relentless, and fearless.

Is it just me or is that kind of a pricey unit considering the rest of the codex?

Not just you at all, that makes very little sense to me. 15 point jump packs on a unit with Rage seems pretty fething stupid. But I guess I'm a real 40K player now, I've got me a unit that gets to sit on the shelf and look at me all sad now.

Yeah I think I may be removing some jump packs and painting a rhino black...

Anpu42 wrote:What is everyone worried about the Flying Land Raiders.
-15x Death Company [Points?]
-1x Preist for the Re-Rolls [Points?]
-1x LRC with all the bells and whistles [Points?]

How many points is that?

We're not worried about them, we think they're silly.

I'm more worried about all the preds and FnP myself.