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FNP will not work against
Plasma Weapons, Melta Weapons, Power Weapons, DCCW, Rending, ect.
Most of those will work on Preds

Actually I just realized that DC cost with jumpacks hasn't changed. it was 30 +5 before now it's 20 +15 (apparently) and I doubt the new 2W lemartes costs more than 125 so the cost isn't going to go up a whole lot. I suspect the main reason for higher cost will be that we won't get death company from (formerly higher cost) squads.
So the issue becomes whether or not to use the awesome discount of DC on foot. but of course you'll have to at least give them a rhino if you do or they'll be chasing your opponent's empty transports all game.

Anpu42 wrote:FNP will not work against
Plasma Weapons, Melta Weapons, Power Weapons, DCCW, Rending, ect.
Most of those will work on Preds

Yes the same argument can be made against plague marines yet they are still just as amazing as ever.. All of those wound on a 2+ but youre limited in number.. Having an entire FNP army is huge, it marginalizes the majority of guns


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Kirasu wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:FNP will not work against
Plasma Weapons, Melta Weapons, Power Weapons, DCCW, Rending, ect.
Most of those will work on Preds

Yes the same argument can be made against plague marines yet they are still just as amazing as ever.. All of those wound on a 2+ but youre limited in number.. Having an entire FNP army is huge, it marginalizes the majority of guns

On the topic of DC. Its pretty easy to negate rage, simply move them LAST and block their LOS somehow then you can move them however you want.. Jump them out of a transport, then get back in as soon as you can

Darknite wrote:there's no additional cost for a substantial upgrade to the unit

Perhaps the issue is that LRs are generally overcosted at 250 pts, so adding DS as an ability brings it back in line?

Or does the BA LR cost the same as a CSM LR?

Er, deepstriking Land Raiders is, at best, a marginal ability unless they have some way of intentionally delaying reserves so that the majority of the army can clear a landing zone turn 2-3 for the LR to drop in on.

Simply hucking LR hulls onto the table is just a good way to get yourself into your opponent's melta range with less risk on his part.

Anpu42 wrote:FNP will not work against
Plasma Weapons, Melta Weapons, Power Weapons, DCCW, Rending, ect.
Most of those will work on Preds

Yes, so what?

That list Dreadshane posted (4 las/plas razorbacks with assault marines in them 3 dakka baals and 3 dakka preds with 3 sanguinary's) isn't unbeatable but it is still a formidable list.

Considering my orks have no plasma or melta they're going to be hard pressed to beat it for one.

My SW have a much better chance but still have to contend with the rhino popping power of 4 lascannons, 3 autocannons, 3 assault cannons, 4 plasma guns and all those inferno pistols before getting charged by the 2attack FnP and Furious charge troops.

FNP will be a valuable addition to units like Terminators with TH/SS, as it is usually the buckets of dice rolled for small stuff (bolters and lasguns) that eventually make them fail their saves. This means the opponent is going to have to delegate the killing to the heavier weapons, keeping them off of other targets. It works in with target saturation theories (at least in my head it does!).

Can anyone confirm if the sanguinary guard deathmask has a negative modifier?

It does not. Straight Ld. And is a 25 pt upgrade. Rather pricey for warshout.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:Actually I just realized that DC cost with jumpacks hasn't changed. it was 30 +5 before now it's 20 +15 (apparently) and I doubt the new 2W lemartes costs more than 125 so the cost isn't going to go up a whole lot. I suspect the main reason for higher cost will be that we won't get death company from (formerly higher cost) squads.
So the issue becomes whether or not to use the awesome discount of DC on foot. but of course you'll have to at least give them a rhino if you do or they'll be chasing your opponent's empty transports all game.

He's 150.

terminus wrote:

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:Actually I just realized that DC cost with jumpacks hasn't changed. it was 30 +5 before now it's 20 +15 (apparently) and I doubt the new 2W lemartes costs more than 125 so the cost isn't going to go up a whole lot. I suspect the main reason for higher cost will be that we won't get death company from (formerly higher cost) squads.
So the issue becomes whether or not to use the awesome discount of DC on foot. but of course you'll have to at least give them a rhino if you do or they'll be chasing your opponent's empty transports all game.

He's 150.

That seems like a lot for a 2 wound model. other than getting tougher when he's wounded and the re-rolls with DC what does he do? Does he have SM chaplain stats or does he have 3A and I5?

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

terminus wrote:

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:Actually I just realized that DC cost with jumpacks hasn't changed. it was 30 +5 before now it's 20 +15 (apparently) and I doubt the new 2W lemartes costs more than 125 so the cost isn't going to go up a whole lot. I suspect the main reason for higher cost will be that we won't get death company from (formerly higher cost) squads.
So the issue becomes whether or not to use the awesome discount of DC on foot. but of course you'll have to at least give them a rhino if you do or they'll be chasing your opponent's empty transports all game.

He's 150.

That seems like a lot for a 2 wound model. other than getting tougher when he's wounded and the re-rolls with DC what does he do? Does he have SM chaplain stats or does he have 3A and I5?

I6 by what I've read. Don't know much about special rules though. His crozius is special in some way.

The Crozius is master-crafted, that's all. No special rules other than going to S5 A5 when wounded. Normally has 2 base attacks. I5 or 6, can't recall at the moment.


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coteaz wrote:does anyone know Furioso Librarian's stats for BS,I and A??

i only understood it has WS6..

It's WS6, I5, A2(3). It cannot take two blood talons, as it is forced to replace its armament for a DCCW, force weapon and psychic hood, and there is no option to replace DCCW+FW for blood talons.

The Death Company Dread is WS5 A3(4), don't remember the initiative.

Both Dreads start at 125 points, and the psyker upgrade is 50. And yes, the dread can take Wings of Sanguinius so it can fly around, lol.

Then I guess Ol' Lemmy is pretty good then. you just make sure you allocate one non- instant death attack on him until he hulks out.
Too bad he doesn't have a death mask anymore. that was kind of his thing back in the day. Not that it was all that effective anyway

Okay, went through the last 20 pages or so, skipping the "ZOMG DEEP STRIKING LAND RAIDERS" stupidity that went on for far too long:

Neconilis wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Both!

Do you know the full weapon options of assault squads?

1 in 5 can take flamer/melta/plasma or pistol versions of the same. Sgt can also take pistol versions.

Bubbalicious wrote:Does anyone who took a peek at the codex know if lightning claws will be like C:SM or if they get a special version of it like the wolves did?

Regular lightning claws.

Mattbranb wrote:I'm trying to understand this and maybe you'all can help me out. I thought one of the positive sides to taking Blood Angels was getting furious charge across the army. Now from what everyone is saying, roll a 1 for each unit before deployment and the unit gets Rage and Furious Charge. Everyone else just gets Combat Tactics. Am I missing something here or does Furious Charge now only come with a negative?

No Rage, no Combat Tactics. Combat Tactics is replaced by Red Thirst, on a roll of 1, it gives you Fearless and Furious Charge. Only DC infantry and dreads have Black Rage, which is regular rage + they don't count as scoring (although dread wouldn't be anyway).

Mattbranb wrote:So Sanguinary priests - how exactly do these guys work? Are they more like commissars that are bought and attached to squads to give them FNP and other tasty stuff? Not upgrading to the special character, but what exactly do regular priests do?

No, they are IC that can be purchased 3 to a slot. They all have a 6" FNP + FC bubble.

Agree with what folks are talking about the transport/flier thing - AV12 is just too fragile in my opinion.

Well, at least it is 12 all around and ignores the melta rule.

Alpharius wrote:I hope that in the background section we get "confirmation" that Sanguinius knew he was going to he death but he did so because he also knew that he would provide the opening for the Emperor to defeat Horus by damaging Horus' armor.

Breezed through the fluff, there was nothing much about Sanguinius other than him getting punked by Horus and this being the source of the Red Thirst/Black Rage. The coolest fluff piece probably belongs to Astaroth, who is both the most honored and the most reviled person in the Chapter.

MajorTom11 wrote:Im just relieved they dropped the vampire stuff and grails more or less to focus on greek/roman themed angels again.

Oh how wrong you are. How very very wrong.

Therion wrote:

What level of cheese can they go to from here after Blood Angels? It boggles the mind.

I'm curious, when very competitively minded players criticise this codex for being underwhelming or based on the rumours perhaps even underpowered do you just skip over those posts, try not to read them and erase their existence from your memory and continue to whine about codex creep? I mean if people call something underpowered and others call it overpowered, assuming both parties know atleast something about the game, it should be something in between, right?

Yes, that's exactly what people are doing, because as we all know, people are reactionist and stupid, especially on the internet. The BA codex is hardly overpowered. If anything, other than the AV13 spam list, it's relatively weak. It's just stupid and cartoony, but I didn't expect anything better out of Matt Ward.

Brother SRM wrote:
You know, I was really looking forward to this mini. Seth sounded really badass. This miniature just seems kind of meh to me. His armor looks simple while his backpack is blinged out. I'll need to see some better pictures, but for now I'm not sold on him.

Seth sucks, most unimpressive character in the codex. He does nothing special, just has a S8 rending chainsword and dishes out an automatic S4 hit whenever missed in combat. There was also some give up attacks to hit everything in btb nonsense, whatever. He does NOT increase odds of triggering Red Thirst, that's solely Astaroth's gig.

Some guy wrote:Fast rhinos for a price is how they should have always been played. Its not like fast rhinos are game breaking since you can't really assault faster but they'll be better for tank shocking, dawn of war and objective grabs at the tradeoff of costing you nearly an extra rhino for every 2 you take.

Rhinos/Razorbacks are +15 points.

The hilariously bad "blood" names begin. Blood talons doesn't seem too bad but is laughably pompous for a DCCW

Yes, the regular DCCW is called a blood fist for no reason.

Magna-Grapples - A R12” S8 anti-vehicle harpoon weapon for Dreadnaughts. On a successful Penetrating or Glancing hit, the target vehicle is dragged 2D6" toward the Dreadnought, facing unchanged. Will only pull a vehicle as far as the edge of Terrain or 1" away from (friendly?) models. It has been said it can cause Tank Shock.

Target vehicle is stopped if it comes within 1" of terrain, another vehicle (friendly or enemy), or a unit locked in close combat. Otherwise, everything dragged over gets tank shocked. Not sure what happens if you hit a model that's already within 1" of those things. Costs the same as the upcharge on transports.

Reclusiarch Chaplain – Death Company get to re-roll to-wound and to-hits on the charge with the Liturgies of Hate
Oh joy, better than a wolf priest AND a standard chappy. He better be more expensive.

Costs 35 more than a SM Chaplain.

Dreadnaught – Can upgrade to Venerable, Furioso, and Furioso Librarian
Furioso Librarian have a single Blood Talon and Force Weapon, they have to choose which to use in close combat, but they DO get the +1 attack for having multiple CCWs. They can take 2 Blood Angel psychic powers (including Wings of Sanguinius) and has a Psychic Hood.

No Venerable option, this is wrong. And it's a Blood Fist, not Blood Talon. So either S10 DCCW or S6 force weapon.

Sanguinary Guard – Armed with wrist-mounted Angelus Boltguns (12" S4 AP4 Assault 2), Glaives Encarmine (master crafted Power Weapons) Jump Packs and Artificer Armour. May take Death Masks. Max squad size of 5. They better cost a load.

Same as assault terminators.

Fast Attack
Baal Predator – Pretty much the same, but is Fast, has the Scout USR, and the option for a turret-mounted Flamestorm Cannon.

Costs the same as a C:SM Vindicator.

Vindicator – As per C:SM but are Fast

Cost +30.

Hulksmash wrote:13 Front and 12 Side. On the Furioso's. Libarian Dreads are an upgrade on the Furioso. Not sure if the Death Company ones are 13 Front as well.

Fun side note Furioso's and DC Dreads can exchange their DCCW's for basically dreadnought lightning claws. For every person they kill they get another attack too

DC are front AV12. Both start at regular dread +20, Librarian upgrade is another +50.

Volkov wrote:

I am not convinced of the value of these inferno pistols. I find it hard enough as it is reliably getting within 6" for melta safely, and I play a biker army. 3" on an arguably "slower" unit gives me pause.

I frequently play against Sisters of battle, and take it from me, they are nasty in the hands of BS 5 characters

Your Sisters of Battle opponents are pretty goofy then, since at AP2 their version of this pistol sucks.


Whew, I think that's it. Oh, the Dakka pred is 1/2 the cost of a Stormraven, while the Annihilator version is 20 points less.

Wow, that was a long post Terminus. Did that take you the better part of the day? Thanks for all the good info!

So does anybody else want to run Sanguinary Guard with dante and make them the basis of the army, just because they looks so awesome? I do, but I don't have the dough for 3-4 new kits.

thank you terminus..

but what about fire weapons for libby dread?

is there "frag cannon" or anything like that?

terminus wrote:

Sanguinary Guard – Armed with wrist-mounted Angelus Boltguns (12" S4 AP4 Assault 2), Glaives Encarmine (master crafted Power Weapons) Jump Packs and Artificer Armour. May take Death Masks. Max squad size of 5. They better cost a load.

Same as assault terminators.

Ghawd, 40 points per model (or more w/upgrades) is just way too much for a jump marine with no invul save. And max squad size of 5! Didn't the total absence of Vanguard from any list teach GW anything? This is costed like a super-elite CC unit that can't beat other elite CC units in CC. Who cares if they can wreck a Tac squad? So can everything else. These guys should be 25 base, maybe 30 if the squad size limit was increased.

Seriously, at least in the fandex they had Hit and Run.

There is a frag cannon, I don't remember the cost (it was less than 25), but it replaces a blood fist, so I really wouldn't bother with it. The stats were S6 template weapon with no AP.

The magna grapple is an independent weapon, so you can have it in addition to your close combat ones.

@FoxPhoenix: lol, no, it only took about 20 minutes... I just skipped the 7 pages or so of people discussing the retardation level of deep striking land raiders.

This is why I dont buy the argument that GW makes rules to sell models.. If that were the case then sanguinary guard would be NOT 40 pts and DC wouldnt pay 15 pts for jump packs

And thats just BA.. the list goes on such as the new basilisk kit.. Venerable dreadnought kit for a 165 pt model.. gaunts still suffering from no retreat.. Vanguard in general, etc, etc

Well, if I was making a list, I'd start with three Stormravens.

I'd load one with 10-11 death company led by a chaplain, and attach a Furioso Librarian Dreadnought (with the cover and the lance powers). Then the other two would get squads of assault marines with Sanguinary priests, with attached DC dreads. The assault marines would give up their jump packs so I could buy Razorbacks with TL assault cannons or las/plas for 55 points.

Then I'd take three Baal predators, keeping one or two of them with just the turret weapon and outflanking them, and the other 1-2 set up for dakka.

Should easily fit in 2000 points, with some overhead for upgrades, magna grapples, etc.

Kirasu wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:FNP will not work against
Plasma Weapons, Melta Weapons, Power Weapons, DCCW, Rending, ect.
Most of those will work on Preds

Yes the same argument can be made against plague marines yet they are still just as amazing as ever.. All of those wound on a 2+ but youre limited in number.. Having an entire FNP army is huge, it marginalizes the majority of guns


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirasu wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:FNP will not work against
Plasma Weapons, Melta Weapons, Power Weapons, DCCW, Rending, ect.
Most of those will work on Preds

Yes the same argument can be made against plague marines yet they are still just as amazing as ever.. All of those wound on a 2+ but youre limited in number.. Having an entire FNP army is huge, it marginalizes the majority of guns

On the topic of DC. Its pretty easy to negate rage, simply move them LAST and block their LOS somehow then you can move them however you want.. Jump them out of a transport, then get back in as soon as you can

My local game store got the black box with the codex yesterday. death Company do not count as scoring units, so you can't win the game by taking an army of them. I believe the same is true of sanguinary guard. So they are awesome, but since sanguinary priests can't be everywhere, it is unlikely your entire army will feel no pain.

sanguinary guards are scoring with dante but not without him as he makes them troops.

I thought the Frag Cannon was also Rending... wasn't it? There should have been something a bit more for it, I recall...

<Raises eyebrow at GrimTeef> You sound like a man who might've been involved in the PT process...

It's St6 AP- Assault 2 Rending

Hulksmash wrote:It's St6 AP- Assault 2 Rending

No blast?

It's a template.

Ah, thanks.