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Yeah, Shawn would be a great CEO as long as he let a competent manager run the business. It would let him do his goofy videos and generally have fun, which seems to be the only thing he is good at.

He would be a good face for the company, but he obviously has zero actual business sense. Just an ego way too large for his capabilities. You're only allowed to have an ego that swollen if you're actually a competent CEO.

Jathom wrote:
This is also part of the problem (for the artists) with projects like Tenebre's. It's a multiweek project for an artist, which means they will be going at least one pay cycle with no paycheck.

But Tenebre had to pay the majority of the project up front. If that money is only going to the artist AFTER the project is done then it's horrible mismanagement. When Tenebre pays his deposit, much of that should be going to the artist so they don't starve in the 2 months it takes them to do the project.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Jathom wrote:
This is also part of the problem (for the artists) with projects like Tenebre's. It's a multiweek project for an artist, which means they will be going at least one pay cycle with no paycheck.

But Tenebre had to pay the majority of the project up front. If that money is only going to the artist AFTER the project is done then it's horrible mismanagement. When Tenebre pays his deposit, much of that should be going to the artist so they don't starve in the 2 months it takes them to do the project.

This a million times. I realized some of it has to go to supplies, however with the rumor that they were so behind on earlier commissions inventory they had to stall and use later commission deposits for them is truly horrible management if True. Same thing goes for what happened to Spencer, if he was on a commissioned basis for the webstore and having Shawn sell product before him because its ooooo shiny moment and need for content on updates.

Jathom, thanks for some insight, its just when people start seeing the artists constantly in updates doing personal Items and on the Computer playing WoW or LoL(only really 2 staff do this to my knowledge) it gets people like Tenebre to wonder WTF is going on with his project if someone has the time to mess with one of the other staffs stuff. I understand taking breaks on major projects, to keep on from getting burned out and all, as well as working on multiple projects at once, It doesnt excuse lack of updates to clients, poor quality control and other such snafus that arise. Yes inventory is a factor to complete projects but then you move on to something that is available to do, just like when you prep in a kitchen. If your roomies, or spouse is bring something home you need like milk or something to get as much done as possible until you need that milk.

Also if any of the staff is getting paid once something is finished, I hope they are working other jobs or have someone else in their live they depend on. Mind you I know nothing of cost of living in Utah, but if a project is to last roughly 2-4 weeks and say its around $300 to $700, and after you take the commission percentage and split that up among Assembly and Painting, that doesnt seem like someone can make a living off of how BTP presents it self.

Jathom wrote:
In defense of BTP employees using their time at the studio to NOT work on client projects: they are commission paid. They do not make anything hourly and do not get paid while working on their own stuff. They are only paid when a project is completed.

This is also part of the problem (for the artists) with projects like Tenebre's. It's a multiweek project for an artist, which means they will be going at least one pay cycle with no paycheck. For the majority of the people who work there, this is their sole source of income and so projects like that usually get picked up by multiple artists so they can be completed in less than 2 weeks, which means splitting the pay. It also means that the paint job WILL NOT be consistent because more than one person is painting. No matter how they train, most of the people there were hobbiests first so they have different skills and different levels of expertise.

Not defending how poorly it was done, because it was crap, just wanted to make sure folks around here have an understanding of some of the ways the artists work and deal with the job there.

On the Shannon thing, she was the HR person, the office manager, the packing specialist, and the person who did all the logistics for Valhalla; and Spencer was right, she SHOULD have been running the company. Allowing Shawn to run around and do his thing without impacting the running of the company.

Kudos,

Another (former) BTP Artist.

I did freelance legal research and writing when i was younger and was paid on a X percent on delivery, Y percent after requested revisions are complete. However, for large projects (which was my decision, not theirs), i could "draw" on part of Y. Remember, it was essentially a contract, and if i engaged in breach, i was working for absolutely the worst people to breach a contract with ; lawyers!

If this is how the artists are paid, and there's no draw, no schedule of retention and payout at milestones, then no wonder any job worth more than 1-2 weeks of effort comes out with quality issues. Because it's asinine. You would need contractors that are skilled at what they do, but also financially intelligent, or you are basically guaranteeing that you're bringing on an employee that is going to have issues NOT speed rushing through a project because he has to make rent. / car payment / groceries.


I mean... i dunno... maybe Jah or Crabby can chime in... is this typical in commission work ? Just sounds like a really bad idea from the outset.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Jathom wrote:
This is also part of the problem (for the artists) with projects like Tenebre's. It's a multiweek project for an artist, which means they will be going at least one pay cycle with no paycheck.

But Tenebre had to pay the majority of the project up front. If that money is only going to the artist AFTER the project is done then it's horrible mismanagement. When Tenebre pays his deposit, much of that should be going to the artist so they don't starve in the 2 months it takes them to do the project.

I don't know if i agree with "much", but yeah, on a large project, some of it should go to the artist.

Because here's the thing, as a manager myself, if i have to worry about my team's skillset AND THEIR PRIVATE financial competency, I literally don't know how i would get any work done. By private financial competency, I mean does BIllie-Bob who just took on the 9k point huge, upper level of detail project have a couple grand in the bank to make rent, car payment, and groceries for the next 3 months this takes him. Or does Billie Bob live toally paycheck to paycheck, and after 3 weeks of this he's going to be rushing trhough the project like Sonic the hedgehog mainlining methamphetamine simply so he can get paid and take care of his bills.


If they don't have an advance or draw system, or retentions payment schedule, then that's probably half of their quality issues right there. It's people biting off more than they can chew while probably not having enough financial resources between paydays. This creates stress to get paid, rushing, sloppiness. Would also totally explain the inconsistency, as i'm sure the art directors get paid in a similar manner (i.e. speed and smoothness of things out the door on a first touch basis, rather than really acting as a second pair of eyes and final arbiter to quality).

God... i'm so glad i paint my own stuff.

 Haight wrote:


I don't know if i agree with "much", but yeah, on a large project, some of it should go to the artist.

Because here's the thing, as a manager myself, if i have to worry about my team's skillset AND THEIR PRIVATE financial competency, I literally don't know how i would get any work done. By private financial competency, I mean does BIllie-Bob who just took on the 9k point huge, upper level of detail project have a couple grand in the bank to make rent, car payment, and groceries for the next 3 months this takes him. Or does Billie Bob live toally paycheck to paycheck, and after 3 weeks of this he's going to be rushing trhough the project like Sonic the hedgehog mainlining methamphetamine simply so he can get paid and take care of his bills.


If they don't have an advance or draw system, or retentions payment schedule, then that's probably half of their quality issues right there. It's people biting off more than they can chew while probably not having enough financial resources between paydays. This creates stress to get paid, rushing, sloppiness. Would also totally explain the inconsistency, as i'm sure the art directors get paid in a similar manner (i.e. speed and smoothness of things out the door on a first touch basis, rather than really acting as a second pair of eyes and final arbiter to quality).

God... i'm so glad i paint my own stuff.

Exalted for improved managerial thinking

On this video back from 2007 we can see Shawn from Blue Table Painting sharing with us his idea of how pricing should be figured out.




Please notice that on 0:50 he says that the reasonable amount of time needed for a professional artist to finish painting a miniature is tested by himself...

Well unless you have painted a large amount of minis you can't really figure out how much work it is needs to achieve the wanted result can you? You just have to do it into a reasonable

amount of time according to Shawn and get enough money to pay your bills. It is no wonder artists rush through a project "like Sonic the hedgehog mainlining methamphetamine simply so he can get paid

and take care of his bills." I can't even imagine the hell he gives them if they fall behind on time besides not getting paid!

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I think the whole "showing employees playing games" and "talking more about my DnD campaign" is another symptom of the naivete on Shawn's part. To him, I think the image of a relaxed and "fun" workplace are the intent of those things, after all, I don't think I'm stretching much in saying that a workplace where you have room to play and a boss who is a friend as well as a boss is a very appealing thing, regardless of the job. And heck, one of my old jobs had a place where employees could just relax and watch movies and it was great. The problem with Shawn, however, is that it seems like he believes showing that is all he needs to do. That by showing how loose and happy the workplace is it shows how successful as a friendly boss he is. However, the equation is not balanced. You can't exalt the loose casual work atmosphere when your work is receiving complaints of lax and underwhelming performance.

I'm not surprised about the level of turnover, either. I had a friend express interest once in working for them, but quickly changed his tune after the first Skype call with Shawn. He described it as "everything felt wrong about it" when discussing how he would be paid by Shawn. Again, more signs of a lack of grounded vision and naivete on Shawn's part. I think he sincerely believes that he is doing the right thing, that he does not want a "serious" and stuffy business and that by doing this, he is looking out for his employees in a wider scope than someone who just signs the checks. However (there's always a however), all ships need a captain, and Shawn does not feel like he wants to LEAD.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Everyone nominate Blue Table Painting's decision not to offer tenebre a full refund the worst business move of 2014.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/628090.page

Vote now.

Hmmm...

I have to disagree - not because BTP didn't screw up. They did so in spades. (Royal blue, and tattooed too!)

But... look at GW... bragging in their stockholder report that they don't do market research? That GW had a 'great year' unless you counted growing their market? (Last year was just as good - Attacking a charity project over the use of the term 'Space Marine'?)

These are gaffs that caught attention from media outside of the hobby (or the HHHOBBY).

BTP screwed up, but they are not ready for the big league.... Folks outside of the community have not been reading about them in the papers....

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Hmmm...

I have to disagree - not because BTP didn't screw up. They did so in spades. (Royal blue, and tattooed too!)

But... look at GW... bragging in their stockholder report that they don't do market research? That GW had a 'great year' unless you counted growing their market? (Last year was just as good - Attacking a charity project over the use of the term 'Space Marine'?)

These are gaffs that caught attention from media outside of the hobby (or the HHHOBBY).

BTP screwed up, but they are not ready for the big league.... Folks outside of the community have not been reading about them in the papers....

The Auld Grump

Yeah, but that's all old news for GW. Their annual reports are straight up crazy, talking about moats, rants about 3d printing, boasting about suing the crap out of small companies in Eastern Europe and dishing on the hard parts about sucking people into blowing money on plastic models (instead of saying they produce quality products). Pick any annual report from the last 10 years and you will find similar levels of nucking futz in the pages.

Dumb of the Year awards don't do them justice. They deserve lifetime achievements.

Blue Table Painting, on the other hand, mostly gets it's business off Google searches and links back to their site from a relatively small list of websites. Every time someone says they screwed tenebre, he gets a millimeter closer on his 20 kilo journey to a refund. But when someone says GW is crazy, everyone just agrees and buys more miniatures.

Your vote for Blue Table Painting for Worst Business Decision makes a minor, almost insignificant difference in the grand scheme of things. Don't waste your vote on something everyone already knows.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Hmmm...

I have to disagree - not because BTP didn't screw up. They did so in spades. (Royal blue, and tattooed too!)

But... look at GW... bragging in their stockholder report that they don't do market research? That GW had a 'great year' unless you counted growing their market? (Last year was just as good - Attacking a charity project over the use of the term 'Space Marine'?)

These are gaffs that caught attention from media outside of the hobby (or the HHHOBBY).

BTP screwed up, but they are not ready for the big league.... Folks outside of the community have not been reading about them in the papers....

The Auld Grump

Yeah, but that's all old news for GW. Their annual reports are straight up crazy, talking about moats, rants about 3d printing, boasting about suing the crap out of small companies in Eastern Europe and dishing on the hard parts about sucking people into blowing money on plastic models (instead of saying they produce quality products). Pick any annual report from the last 10 years and you will find similar levels of nucking futz in the pages.

Dumb of the Year awards don't do them justice. They deserve lifetime achievements.

Blue Table Painting, on the other hand, mostly gets it's business off Google searches and links back to their site from a relatively small list of websites. Every time someone says they screwed tenebre, he gets a millimeter closer on his 20 kilo journey to a refund. But when someone says GW is crazy, everyone just agrees and buys more miniatures.

Your vote for Blue Table Painting for Worst Business Decision makes a minor, almost insignificant difference in the grand scheme of things. Don't waste your vote on something everyone already knows.

I'm gong to agree here. I'm a GW game fan, but even i'm of the opinion that being surprised that Dumb comes out of GW is like being surprised that Waffles come out of a Waffle Iron.

So that said, it's nothing new that GW is epically slow when it comes to business decisions ; however Blue Table Painting, a miniature painting service, really made a strong splash on the "horrible business decisions" scene with this entire scenario. I think they deserve this hard won (dis)honor.

 curran12 wrote:
I think the whole "showing employees playing games" and "talking more about my DnD campaign" is another symptom of the naivete on Shawn's part. To him, I think the image of a relaxed and "fun" workplace are the intent of those things, after all, I don't think I'm stretching much in saying that a workplace where you have room to play and a boss who is a friend as well as a boss is a very appealing thing, regardless of the job. And heck, one of my old jobs had a place where employees could just relax and watch movies and it was great. The problem with Shawn, however, is that it seems like he believes showing that is all he needs to do. That by showing how loose and happy the workplace is it shows how successful as a friendly boss he is. However, the equation is not balanced. You can't exalt the loose casual work atmosphere when your work is receiving complaints of lax and underwhelming performance.

I'm not surprised about the level of turnover, either. I had a friend express interest once in working for them, but quickly changed his tune after the first Skype call with Shawn. He described it as "everything felt wrong about it" when discussing how he would be paid by Shawn. Again, more signs of a lack of grounded vision and naivete on Shawn's part. I think he sincerely believes that he is doing the right thing, that he does not want a "serious" and stuffy business and that by doing this, he is looking out for his employees in a wider scope than someone who just signs the checks. However (there's always a however), all ships need a captain, and Shawn does not feel like he wants to LEAD.

"Everything felt wrong about it" Is the thing you should focus on here. I do not belive that Shawn is a Relaxed and easy going dude.. The more videos I watch with him the more I get the feeling that he tries to hide his "true self".. He shows his "mask" to the public and tries to hide "The Dark Side".. As I have stated before The dude gives me the creeps.. I am a really good judge of character and sadly my first inpressions of people are almost never wrong... I have a real skill for it to be honest... And there "definitely is something wrong here", you can trust me on this...

You can train your social skills.. And I have had to do it since forever, Some people are born with great memory/mathematical skills and some are born with High social skills and if you train them you become really good at judging peoples charecter. Sadly this has also made me very jaded and cynical.. And I grow more and more tired of people in general, it also becomes very boring to always be right.. I can have a conversaion with someone for about 30m and then know exacly what makes them tick... I am also very manipulative myself, and Shawn comes across as a manipulative person that has some serious issues that he is trying desperately to hide..

OK, this really is going to be the last time...

BEFORE POSTING IN THIS THREAD:

1) Read the title of the thread.
2) Think about all the warnings that have already been placed in this thread for going off topic, for making personal attacks, etc.
3) Ask yourself "Is my post going to follow all the rules of this site, including but not limited to being on topic and polite?" If the answer is no - then DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD. If the answer is yes, please do post.

That's it.

From now on, it is all about warnings, suspensions and thread locks.

For the love of god, let us see the pictures before the thread is locked!

 Reality-Torrent wrote:
For the love of god, let us see the pictures before the thread is locked!

The repaint is being covered here and probably will continue to be: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/624649.page

 zlayer77 wrote:

"Everything felt wrong about it" Is the thing you should focus on here. I do not belive that Shawn is a Relaxed and easy going dude.. The more videos I watch with him the more I get the feeling that he tries to hide his "true self".. He shows his "mask" to the public and tries to hide "The Dark Side".. As I have stated before The dude gives me the creeps.. I am a really good judge of character and sadly my first inpressions of people are almost never wrong... I have a real skill for it to be honest... And there "definitely is something wrong here", you can trust me on this...

You can train your social skills.. And I have had to do it since forever, Some people are born with great memory/mathematical skills and some are born with High social skills and if you train them you become really good at judging peoples charecter. Sadly this has also made me very jaded and cynical.. And I grow more and more tired of people in general, it also becomes very boring to always be right.. I can have a conversaion with someone for about 30m and then know exacly what makes them tick... I am also very manipulative myself, and Shawn comes across as a manipulative person that has some serious issues that he is trying desperately to hide..

Humble brag. Is this an advertisement for your psychoanalyzing business? I would like a profile on Alpharius, if you please Nutcase? Hero? Future talk show host? Stamp connoisseur? Hoarder (and not just minis)? LMK.

Please sir, stay on topic.

Any new news ten?

 Ustrello wrote:
Any new news ten?

There is a different thread that is covering it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/624649.page

 Reality-Torrent wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Any new news ten?

There is a different thread that is covering it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/624649.page

I think he may mean the legal/money section of things that are in direct link to Blue Table Painting

It will be interesting seeing how this all plays out for Blue Table. I am throwing my support to Tenebre and hope he gets a refund in the end. As a small business owner since 1995, I can clearly see this as a classic case of "when the cat is away the mice will play" scenario. These days especially you have to have someone, usually the owner, watching the service process closely or have someone in the company who has a vested interest in things.....ie...Shannon. The whole matter was handled horribly by the owner and has now blown up as a result. We are a close community and Shawn should know this by now. My solution: Refund the entire project cost. Put out an apology video to the community and fans. Completely revamp the "level" system and costs. Stick with what you do best....building and painting armies! Keep the self help and rants to another channel. Make sure the customer has contact with the artist directly. Go back to a "team" project artists concept as introduced by Sarah. The customer has contact with the "lead" artist. This will insure continuity and speed up the larger projects. Have the customer purchase his/her own models and only do assembly and painting! Hope this helps BTP in some way moving forward. Cheers! aka Allen Smith...aka youtube Crazie German.

Hmm...

Still curious as to how this will all end.

I am curious though as I saw this on the facebooks page of Blue Table Painting a commission painting service in Utah's wall:

Be my room-mate. I'm looking for a business to share my building with, something wargame related that blends with (but does not compete with) what I'm doing. I have 10,000 square feet of workshop and showroom. I'm looking for a company that will/does employ 8+ people. Contact me at bluetablepainting@gmail.com if interested.

 FatherKnowsBest wrote:
Hmm...

Still curious as to how this will all end.

I am curious though as I saw this on the facebooks page of Blue Table Painting a commission painting service in Utah's wall:

Be my room-mate. I'm looking for a business to share my building with, something wargame related that blends with (but does not compete with) what I'm doing. I have 10,000 square feet of workshop and showroom. I'm looking for a company that will/does employ 8+ people. Contact me at bluetablepainting@gmail.com if interested.

At first glance that reads like they are having trouble paying the rent and need to sublet space to stay in the building. I couldn't imagine having to be in the same building when that fool is making his video intro.

Maybe a quality control & customer relations business can move in.

When they expanded to the two story building (one floor was for terrain) I often wondered how long they could cover all of that overhead.

Require to employ eight? Btp wants to unload his payroll to new guy?

Graxous wrote:
Maybe a quality control & customer relations business can move in.

lol that was pretty good. I don't think When I really think about it I don't want to see blue table painting fail or anything, but I could certainly stand to see shawn eating some humble pie.

 Laemos wrote:
Require to employ eight? Btp wants to unload his payroll to new guy?

I'm assuming he wants to charge them per employee, or just wants someone that'll take up all of the available space rather than a 1 or 2 man office.

The up to 8 employee thing doesn't bother me too much. I mean, assuming he has some kind of sense, he'd know roughly how many people his rental space can take (not just in terms of office space, but also things like parking and so on). Of course, I am a bit curious at the timing as that kind of physical space must have created such immense overhead that Shawn had to have known this would happen. Which makes me wonder why he didn't seek 'roommates' right out of the gate.

My friend used to work at BTP. He quoted as below:

"I'm not working at Btp anymore because I'm tired of always earning a little amount of money and Shawn having no ethics. I worked for the company for 5 years and I made a lot of contribution to BTP's terrain team but I got nothing for it.
He does whatever he wants, and wants with no interference from anyone in btp. He believes himself entirely in the right all the time. The Dropzone Commander "studio" armies given to him for free by Dave Lewis, not painted by him. Shawn doesn't upload HD vids since (according to him) takes too much time and effort. Though he looks like an honest hard-working man, I was disappointed when I left the company 7 years ago. I won't be working for them ever again."

Paint your own models so you can blame yourself instead.

FratHammer wrote:
Paint your own models so you can blame yourself instead.

Sure, I'll just un-damage the nerves in my dominant arm. Easy, huh.

I wanted to post an update.

A settlement was reached and I am satisfied.

Part of the settlement included non disclosure as is common in all legal settlements. Therefore I can not comment any further or provide any additional details.