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 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

Allen Smith Is Shannon gone?
December 13 at 6:31am

Shawn Gately Yes.
December 13 at 6:58am

Allen Smith Nooooo!
December 13 at 9:21am

Shawn Gately I don't want to talk about it.
December 13 at 1:32pm

Spunky Staines nooooooooo!!! first sarah now shannon
December 15 at 8:57am

So...who are Sarah and Shannon, and is there an actual story here?

I do recall a while back an anonymous poster here claiming to be an ex employee referring to these ladies as Shawn's 'wifelets' in his 'compound', which, I hope, is a lot less sinister than it sounds.

It is Utah. Just sayin'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:

 BrookM wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I do recall a while back an anonymous poster here claiming to be an ex employee referring to these ladies as Shawn's 'wifelets' in his 'compound', which, I hope, is a lot less sinister than it sounds.

Anyone for koolaid?

Dang, how long before he also starts adopting a religious title?

Ok, less then stellar business practices aside, are these types of personal attacks really necessary?

I've corresponded with the guy several times, and he's never struck me as anything but a good person. A very good friend of mine has spent several of his Valhalla retreats with him as well, and agrees that he's a great person.

These types of attacks are just childish at this point.

Give him some money for a project. See how good he is after you get your models back. In fact, give him (by all estimates) nearly ten grand to do a huge project, and when you're unhappy with it, see what a "good person" he is when his attempt at ammends equates to a two percent refund.

I think "good person" is a matter of perspective here. Polite to you might have been the better term.

Also, the anecdote about your very good friend is unfortunately not worth that much. I"m sure it's true. I'm also certain i can write something similar right here. Neither of us can "prove it". However this thread and other threads are full of "proof" of bad customer service, unhappy customers, inconsistent products of service, and other not so "great" things.

Also, Ghandi was a great person. Winston Churchill was a great person. Franklin Roosevelt was a great person. Howard Zinn was a great person. This guy runs D&D campaigns and runs an overpriced painting service that charges obscene amounts for tabletop or sub-table top quality. Not sure i'd agree with "great". I mean, is he taking in hosts of starving African children refugees, or promoting tolerance and equality throughout the world ?

-- Haight

I have given him several grand over the years. A lot of what has been painted is in my gallery. I've had mixed results, but over all I've been satisfied with everything I've received.

And as I stated, his current business practices are one thing. But you have poster's here attacking his religion, which goes beyond that. They've entered the realms of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Which goes into why I called them childish.

 djones520 wrote:
I have given him several grand over the years. A lot of what has been painted is in my gallery. I've had mixed results, but over all I've been satisfied with everything I've received.

And as I stated, his current business practices are one thing. But you have poster's here attacking his religion, which goes beyond that. They've entered the realms of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Which goes into why I called them childish.

I'd really not call those worth it for a commission.

 Ustrello wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I have given him several grand over the years. A lot of what has been painted is in my gallery. I've had mixed results, but over all I've been satisfied with everything I've received.

And as I stated, his current business practices are one thing. But you have poster's here attacking his religion, which goes beyond that. They've entered the realms of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Which goes into why I called them childish.

I'd really not call those worth it for a commission.

And I say they were. It was my money spent, so you're opinion means not a damn thing to me. Plus I've never received anything but praise for the outcome from people who've seen the models in person, so I'm going to say that weighs a lot more then random faceless forum guy with axe to grind for some reason.

I'm not here to defend Shawn's practice. I'm no longer a customer of BTP, will never hire them again, for my own reasons. Doesn't mean I'm going to get on here and act like a jerk about him either.

 heartserenade wrote:
It's pretty normal, but there are a lot of ways to answer the question without sounding like there's bad blood between you. Because showing bad blood is bad for your company's image, and saying you don't want to talk about it is the worst way of avoiding the question.

"Shannon has left Blue Table Painting and we wish her well on her new endeavour!" is one way of saying it.

Sure, there's better ways to say it, but based on his personality as it comes across in the videos, reading anything into the way he worded it is a bad idea. If she quit on good terms, he'd be grouchy and let that come across. If he fired her, he'd be grouchy and let that come across.
The only meaningful data would be that she left. Anything past that is an assumption with poor support.

With regards to Shawn, I personally do feel uncomfortable with the way he presents himself on video, even back when I didn't know the shenanigans of Blue Table Painting. Of course, I'm not saying he's certainly a bad person because I don't know him personally but there's something unsettling about him that creeps me out personally.

And given this information I'm not surprised that you're seeing his facebook statement in a negative light. :-) I'm not criticizing or even poking fun, I'm just trying to illustrate that you are reading more into his statement than you should.

 djones520 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I have given him several grand over the years. A lot of what has been painted is in my gallery. I've had mixed results, but over all I've been satisfied with everything I've received.

And as I stated, his current business practices are one thing. But you have poster's here attacking his religion, which goes beyond that. They've entered the realms of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Which goes into why I called them childish.

I'd really not call those worth it for a commission.

And I say they were. It was my money spent, so you're opinion means not a damn thing to me. Plus I've never received anything but praise for the outcome from people who've seen the models in person, so I'm going to say that weighs a lot more then random faceless forum guy with axe to grind for some reason.

I'm not here to defend Shawn's practice. I'm no longer a customer of BTP, will never hire them again, for my own reasons. Doesn't mean I'm going to get on here and act like a jerk about him either.

Sounds like you have an axe to grind seeing how mad you got.

 Ustrello wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I have given him several grand over the years. A lot of what has been painted is in my gallery. I've had mixed results, but over all I've been satisfied with everything I've received.

And as I stated, his current business practices are one thing. But you have poster's here attacking his religion, which goes beyond that. They've entered the realms of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Which goes into why I called them childish.

I'd really not call those worth it for a commission.

And I say they were. It was my money spent, so you're opinion means not a damn thing to me. Plus I've never received anything but praise for the outcome from people who've seen the models in person, so I'm going to say that weighs a lot more then random faceless forum guy with axe to grind for some reason.

I'm not here to defend Shawn's practice. I'm no longer a customer of BTP, will never hire them again, for my own reasons. Doesn't mean I'm going to get on here and act like a jerk about him either.

Sounds like you have an axe to grind seeing how mad you got.

Hardly.

 djones520 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I have given him several grand over the years. A lot of what has been painted is in my gallery. I've had mixed results, but over all I've been satisfied with everything I've received.

And as I stated, his current business practices are one thing. But you have poster's here attacking his religion, which goes beyond that. They've entered the realms of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Which goes into why I called them childish.

I'd really not call those worth it for a commission.

And I say they were. It was my money spent, so you're opinion means not a damn thing to me. Plus I've never received anything but praise for the outcome from people who've seen the models in person, so I'm going to say that weighs a lot more then random faceless forum guy with axe to grind for some reason.

I'm not here to defend Shawn's practice. I'm no longer a customer of BTP, will never hire them again, for my own reasons. Doesn't mean I'm going to get on here and act like a jerk about him either.

Sounds like you have an axe to grind seeing how mad you got.

Hardly.

I doubt it.

Guys! Play nice and get back to topic.......

 Ustrello wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I have given him several grand over the years. A lot of what has been painted is in my gallery. I've had mixed results, but over all I've been satisfied with everything I've received.

And as I stated, his current business practices are one thing. But you have poster's here attacking his religion, which goes beyond that. They've entered the realms of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Which goes into why I called them childish.

I'd really not call those worth it for a commission.

And I say they were. It was my money spent, so you're opinion means not a damn thing to me. Plus I've never received anything but praise for the outcome from people who've seen the models in person, so I'm going to say that weighs a lot more then random faceless forum guy with axe to grind for some reason.

I'm not here to defend Shawn's practice. I'm no longer a customer of BTP, will never hire them again, for my own reasons. Doesn't mean I'm going to get on here and act like a jerk about him either.

Sounds like you have an axe to grind seeing how mad you got.

Hardly.

I doubt it.

I'm inclined to believe Ustrello here, you're intentionally posting on the matter trying to "white knight" Blue Table Painting, a Miniature Painting Service.

No one likes admitting they wasted money on a sub-par job. So people do what they can to justify it.

From you guys' back and forth, you're the one who clearly looks like he's trying to white knight BTP and justify his spent money.

As for personal attacks, the guy opens himself up to that because he's constantly flaunting himself as the face of the company and he keeps mentioning personal activities every 30 seconds in his *business* videos...

(BTW, those books clearly read Pathfinder, so he plays Pathfinder, not DnD, there are differences in the systems)

I'm clearly trying to White Knight them? I've already said I will never hire them again. That's some seriously salesmanship I'm doing for them.

 djones520 wrote:
I'm clearly trying to White Knight them? I've already said I will never hire them again. That's some seriously salesmanship I'm doing for them.

Whiteknighting in the attempt to justify money spent... There are differences in whiteknighting for the purposes of getting them more business and between justifying spending too much money on a sub par product.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I'm clearly trying to White Knight them? I've already said I will never hire them again. That's some seriously salesmanship I'm doing for them.

Whiteknighting in the attempt to justify money spent... There are differences in whiteknighting for the purposes of getting them more business and between justifying spending too much money on a sub par product.

I'm not trying to justify anything. I don't need to. Maybe you guys feel like strangers need to justify how they spend there money and where, but that is your own issue.

 djones520 wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I'm clearly trying to White Knight them? I've already said I will never hire them again. That's some seriously salesmanship I'm doing for them.

Whiteknighting in the attempt to justify money spent... There are differences in whiteknighting for the purposes of getting them more business and between justifying spending too much money on a sub par product.

I'm not trying to justify anything. I don't need to. Maybe you guys feel like strangers need to justify how they spend there money and where, but that is your own issue.

Well, can you at least understand receiving an unfinished product that you paid top dollar for and feeling ripped off? And the guy won't even give you a reasonable refund?

2% is laughable.

Does this topic really need any more pages?

If it does, then please stick to it.

Jeeze people lets stop attacking each other please. djones said he felt the personal attacks were bad and that he is happy with the models he's gotten, can we just take those comments at face value and move on with our lives and stick to on topic discussion instead of trying to assign ulterior motives like white knighting and subconscious personal vindication. It comes across petty and childish and devalues the conversation.

EDIT: Sorry, mod ninja'd me.

So, who is Shannon, and what did she do?

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
So, who is Shannon, and what did she do?

I have no idea... I can't stand BTP's videos so I haven't really watched many of them But googling "blue table painting shannon" came up with this video from a few years back...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzSLsmnaDRk

rigeld2 wrote:

And given this information I'm not surprised that you're seeing his facebook statement in a negative light. :-) I'm not criticizing or even poking fun, I'm just trying to illustrate that you are reading more into his statement than you should.

To be fair, I'd interpret as anything with "I don't want to talk about it" in a negative light. It's very passive-aggressive, and no one who says that line meant something ended well.

Just a quick question from me here, havent followed the thread that closely anymore. But wasnt it a 20% refund in store credit or something? When did this 2% refund happen? (not saying 20% is more reasonable either).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
So, who is Shannon, and what did she do?

I have no idea... I can't stand BTP's videos so I haven't really watched many of them But googling "blue table painting shannon" came up with this video from a few years back...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzSLsmnaDRk

Well I watched the video and all I can say is the guy is super creepy.. he would have that girl cut his hair in his office... Seriously? She was also responsible for packing from what I could understand from the video. So he lost his trusted hairdresser that's why the long face.

Blue Table Painting the Painting service doesn't suck only at painting minis but also at internal business management. Video after video you see new persons like the staff is constantly changing. How you can achieve consistent results at painting if you have new people day in day out. People are pushed to the limit like tenebre was saying to his video, where people was staying until late at night to complete his already overdue project.

 djones520 wrote:

Ok, less then stellar business practices aside, are these types of personal attacks really necessary?

I've corresponded with the guy several times, and he's never struck me as anything but a good person. A very good friend of mine has spent several of his Valhalla retreats with him as well, and agrees that he's a great person.

These types of attacks are just childish at this point.

Hey guys, the mods have been clear about personal attacks and staying on-topic in this thread, and they came down on me pretty hard for fairly innocuous behavior.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1620/618082.page#7432471

Personal attacks do not really have a place on Dakka. On the one hand, djones520 is right that some of this is pretty childish. On the other hand, it's pretty sexist too, and that really detracts from tenebre's message. There are thousands of other ways you can choose to express yourself, pick something less childish then calling females in Blue Table Painting videos 'wifettes.'

The internet has a way of fixating on pretty blondes to the exclusion of everyone and everything around them. If anyone wants to know what happened to Shannon, you can see her in the last Blue Table Painting video she appeared in. I commented on it a few months ago.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1140/618082.page#7353521

This was published right after several members of the community started sending letters to Blue Table Painting requesting a refund of tenebre's money. I don't know what the the body language and attitude was all about, or why Shawn chose to feature someone who was clearly not interested in being photographed at that time as a way of promoting his miniature painting service. The subtext I noted towards the end of the video, in retrospect, seems to be more poignant now - it was Shannon's swan song. The only people who did not know were the audience.

But more importantly - I am concerned about Chad. This was the last time we saw him in a Blue Table Painting video, and he's clearly being portrayed as the quality assurance guy (or at least the dude who makes sure there are instructions in the boxes). Shannon strikes me as a well organized, interesting person, but Chad seems to be very keyed into the specifics of Blue Table Painting's process. I really worry about Chad making the jump from whatever he did before to being the person responsible for keeping the train on the rails. There's no way that was an easy transition and the video left me with concerns that he might not be the guy who can make the hard choices when they matter.

This is pure speculation and should not be treated as fact - but I think the tenebre affair lead to someone taking the fall, and then something really bad happened to that person's replacement. Contrast that video with one of the more recent ones, like the one featured here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1680/618082.page#7451140

... it's pretty clear not all is well at Blue Table Painting. Shawn's tone has changed dramatically, he is no longer the owner fretting about business processes and quality, he's the man seeking satisfaction in games of Dungeons and Dragons with a bunch of people who should not be considered his equals. While Shawn may very well be a good person at some level, the story these videos tell is of a troubled man shedding relationships with the ones who made him who he is. I hope the tenebre affair ends soon, for Shawn's sake.

 M0ff3l wrote:
Just a quick question from me here, havent followed the thread that closely anymore. But wasnt it a 20% refund in store credit or something? When did this 2% refund happen? (not saying 20% is more reasonable either).

I have read in several places it was 2%. That being said, i fully acknowledge i read it ; it could have been a typo that was later picked up and carried forward. If so, then that's my mistake and i'll admit it. Tenebre could probably shed light if he wanted to (and if not that's cool too).

 Capamaru wrote:
Video after video you see new persons like the staff is constantly changing.

To be fair to BTP, even if the work environment was awesome I imagine a large miniature painting company would have a fast turn over of employees. It doesn't seem like the sort of work that really has advancement opportunities and is never going to pay terribly well. I imagine people who are passionate enough about painting to want to make a career out of painting (which would be very few) they would be better served doing it on their own or at most with a couple of like minded friends than in a larger company regardless of how good or bad that company is. Then for the majority of people, the commission painting is just a stop gap rather than a career, or something they'd rather do in their spare time rather than their primary full time job. I'm guessing the only real promotion (both money wise and position wise) would be if Shawn quit/died and someone else could take over.

So yeah, I expect there to be a high turn over of employees the same way there's a high turn over of employees at supermarket, it's not the sort of job most people want to turn in to a life long career, it's not well paid and it's not glamorous (as much as Shawn might try to make it look glamorous, lol).

The suspect thing is the way Shawn just says "I don't want to talk about it"... that heavily implies something bad happened to cause the split. A high turn over where people are simply moving on to bigger and better things is less of a concern than a high turn over where everyone is leaving with bad blood.

A high turnover at all levels isn't always that great or a sign. If I know anything about us employment is that it seems like the norm to try and get as much free labour out of your employees as possible. Having a project change hands as its being painted is one thing, but if along the way the painter or painters leaves the company, that's problematic for larger projects like whole armies. My thought would be that a lot of the part timers might get caught having to finish projects off the clock and if that happens often enough it can greatly contribute to turnover.

Yeah, a high turnover of artists would be bad when people are leaving mid project (like seems to be the case with Tenebre).

I was mostly just saying that I would think a high turnover would be expected when running a large commission painting service rather than a sign of a bad company in and of itself.

Though ideally you'd have enough rapport with your workers that you could arrange for them to leave after they've finished jobs they are currently working on and that you wouldn't have to make facebook posts saying "I don't want to talk about it" when someone vanishes.

Even if high turnover isn't necessarily a problem, a painter should never be leaving mid project if you could help it. You would want to at least let them finish before getting rid of them.

And if it was unavoidable, let the customer know that their artist is being changed and there may be a delay.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Even if high turnover isn't necessarily a problem, a painter should never be leaving mid project if you could help it. You would want to at least let them finish before getting rid of them.

And if it was unavoidable, let the customer know that their artist is being changed and there may be a delay.

Exalted for truth.

Once again, communication is the key to success. That's a major part of the problem here, bigger than smudges and basecoated sections

Shannon was the so called office manager and would be HR person. Sarah was that same at one time and they both briefly worked together at the same time I think. There was a major youtube response awhile ago that Spencer, the trade stock guy, said in reality She should be running the business. The post of "I dont want to talk about it" comes off as she stepped up and wanted change vs the way Shawn is running things. As I have stated before in this thread towards the beginning, The business practices of how employees are allow to work is laughable. When you have employees that play video games while on company time says one thing, as does hearing about artists working on other artists personal projects during updates. When employees feel its more important to do their own things vs someone that is paying for the commission, its time to write people up and get the point across that this is a business and not a google hangout or whatever and focus on what pays their bills.

In defense of BTP employees using their time at the studio to NOT work on client projects: they are commission paid. They do not make anything hourly and do not get paid while working on their own stuff. They are only paid when a project is completed.

This is also part of the problem (for the artists) with projects like Tenebre's. It's a multiweek project for an artist, which means they will be going at least one pay cycle with no paycheck. For the majority of the people who work there, this is their sole source of income and so projects like that usually get picked up by multiple artists so they can be completed in less than 2 weeks, which means splitting the pay. It also means that the paint job WILL NOT be consistent because more than one person is painting. No matter how they train, most of the people there were hobbiests first so they have different skills and different levels of expertise.

Not defending how poorly it was done, because it was crap, just wanted to make sure folks around here have an understanding of some of the ways the artists work and deal with the job there.

On the Shannon thing, she was the HR person, the office manager, the packing specialist, and the person who did all the logistics for Valhalla; and Spencer was right, she SHOULD have been running the company. Allowing Shawn to run around and do his thing without impacting the running of the company.

Kudos,

Another (former) BTP Artist.