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I was also quite confused about the Warboss killing the Monolith. There's simply no way it's going to happen with 6 or 7 attacks that hit on 6's.

He's got 7 attacks, meaning you should get at least 1 hit. Charge him in with a unit of storm boyz or anything close with a hidden PK (which is S9 on the charge), and you will get the result you need.

The problem is destroying it at range when they don't use it to get close and flux everything.

I've played KoS for a while (and Necrons) and my Warboss has an impressive number of 'liths under his belt, and that's when he only had 6 attacks on the charge.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 11/04/2007 3:29 AM
He's got 7 attacks, meaning you should get at least 1 hit. Charge him in with a unit of storm boyz or anything close with a hidden PK (which is S9 on the charge), and you will get the result you need.

The problem is destroying it at range when they don't use it to get close and flux everything.

I've played KoS for a while (and Necrons) and my Warboss has an impressive number of 'liths under his belt, and that's when he only had 6 attacks on the charge.

Thats awefully optimistic Voodoo.  You'll be crying when you roll snake-eyes for damage.

Posted By mauleed on 11/03/2007 5:07 PM

What Yak said.

I'm thinking the new staple unit of any ork army is 20-30 shootas with a klaw. 6 or those creates a real problem for the enemy.

Now if I can just figure out how to crack a monolith with this new list, I'll be all set.

Shoota Boyz Nobs cannot get powerklaws.

 

....I may make this my sig, I just find it funny to repeat, this must be like the 9th time.

Posted By Therion on 11/03/2007 11:33 PM

A warboss gives you what?  One chance to kill it before dying? (and running the numbers, I believe you have something in the range of a 1.3% chance of killing one with the Warboss)

I was also quite confused about the Warboss killing the Monolith. There's simply no way it's going to happen with 6 or 7 attacks that hit on 6's.

As I remember the 'lith can't 'move fast' so you can penetrate it with S10 attacks (barring living metal arguments). So 7 S10 attacks even with 6's to hit has a 21% chance to kill it outright. Not awesome, but a lot better than a 1.3% chance, and way better than 'no way'.

Posted By Deadshane1 on 11/04/2007 4:20 AM

Posted By mauleed on 11/03/2007 5:07 PM

What Yak said.

I'm thinking the new staple unit of any ork army is 20-30 shootas with a klaw. 6 or those creates a real problem for the enemy.

Now if I can just figure out how to crack a monolith with this new list, I'll be all set.

Shoota Boyz Nobs cannot get powerklaws.

 

....I may make this my sig, I just find it funny to repeat, this must be like the 9th time.

There is just as many good arguements for being able to take them as against.  You could argue it till the cows came home and its something no good ork player would let slide until an official faq is released.

so far that seems to be deadshane's only contribution/comment to orks. "no pk nobs for shootas"

upgrade boy to nob, switch his choppa for PK now have all the boys switch their choppa and slugga for shootas. Whats this madness the nob doesn't have BOTH choppa and slugga. Well i guess he can't get himself a nice shoota. Good night deadshane.

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 7:12 AM
so far that seems to be deadshane's only contribution/comment to orks. "no pk nobs for shootas"

upgrade boy to nob, switch his choppa for PK now have all the boys switch their choppa and slugga for shootas. Whats this madness the nob doesn't have BOTH choppa and slugga. Well i guess he can't get himself a nice shoota. Good night deadshane.

That goes on the assumption that you can go down to the bottom options then come back to the top options. One normally follows rules in order, and some codices do seem very much geared up to having the options taken in the order written (e.g IG). so your assumption may not be a good one.

Hope there is a faq one way or the other on it.

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 7:26 AM

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 7:12 AM
so far that seems to be deadshane's only contribution/comment to orks. "no pk nobs for shootas"

upgrade boy to nob, switch his choppa for PK now have all the boys switch their choppa and slugga for shootas. Whats this madness the nob doesn't have BOTH choppa and slugga. Well i guess he can't get himself a nice shoota. Good night deadshane.

That goes on the assumption that you can go down to the bottom options then come back to the top options. One normally follows rules in order, and some codices do seem very much geared up to having the options taken in the order written (e.g IG). so your assumption may not be a good one.

Hope there is a faq one way or the other on it.

Ha!

Your hoping for a FAQ on a yet to be released codex you all stole off the internet.

But seriously, GW is really good about getting out timely FAQ's for their released Codices, so should be any time right?

Thanks for the giggle!

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 7:26 AM

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 7:12 AM
so far that seems to be deadshane's only contribution/comment to orks. "no pk nobs for shootas"

upgrade boy to nob, switch his choppa for PK now have all the boys switch their choppa and slugga for shootas. Whats this madness the nob doesn't have BOTH choppa and slugga. Well i guess he can't get himself a nice shoota. Good night deadshane.

That goes on the assumption that you can go down to the bottom options then come back to the top options. One normally follows rules in order, and some codices do seem very much geared up to having the options taken in the order written (e.g IG). so your assumption may not be a good one.

Care to back that up?  I play IG and there are no options that indicate they have to be taken in any kind of order.  Please don't make up imaginary criteria like that and present them as fact.

that doesn't make sense, thats like saying you MUST pick an HQ character and all his gear before you even make an army list.... Or since you have to place heavy support first in most scenarios that you must pick all gear for your heavy support before all others... Do you understand the nonsense that you just thought of as an example?

Posted By Darkness on 11/03/2007 6:16 PM
WHo needs to kill the monolith when you can phase them.

  So spoke the Necron opponents at the 'Ardboyz tournament!

"Your hoping for a FAQ on a yet to be released codex you all stole off the internet.
But seriously, GW is really good about getting out timely FAQ's for their released Codices, so should be any time right?"

I think this is GW's revenge. They knew the codex would get leaked, so they intentionally left this horribly ambiguous rule in. Now every Ork player is sitting there in existential angst trying to decide if they should build and paint 60-120 shoota boyz or not. EVIL GENIUS!

Actually, I wish this was the case because then I could be reasonably sure it would get answered soon after the codex is actually released.

@ Dead Shanes comment. He seems to be right. You must replace both your SLUGGA and CHOPPA for a shoota. If the Nob doesnt have a choppa then he cant swap out, which means the unit cant as every member cant.

Posted By Orock on 11/04/2007 6:49 AM

Posted By Deadshane1 on 11/04/2007 4:20 AM

Posted By mauleed on 11/03/2007 5:07 PM

What Yak said.

I'm thinking the new staple unit of any ork army is 20-30 shootas with a klaw. 6 or those creates a real problem for the enemy.

Now if I can just figure out how to crack a monolith with this new list, I'll be all set.

Shoota Boyz Nobs cannot get powerklaws.

 

....I may make this my sig, I just find it funny to repeat, this must be like the 9th time.

There is just as many good arguements for being able to take them as against.  You could argue it till the cows came home and its something no good ork player would let slide until an official faq is released.

Problem is making your list with PK nobs in Shoota units, then showing up at an RTT that you drove 45 min to an hour to get to and not being able to play your list because they consider it illegal....which could easily happen.  All they have to do is interpret the rules in the way I pointed out.

"Shoota boyz cannot get powerklaws"-always good to insert into a thread so that it becomes another page or two long.

if we are reading into words, i would argue it says MAY. Like saying they ALL have the option but the nob MAY not take the option. Using that kind of "nit pick" logic would mean that the Nob may carry the units "special weapon" because it says 1 in 10 orks, well the nob is just that ork.

while we are at it, a boy with a special weapon cannot change his weapon for a shoota. unless you are arguing that the whole mob can only carry one type of weapon and any deviation of that is against the rules. For example i buy the special weapon first before i decide to have everyone get shootas. By your logic i can't switch the rest of the mob to shootas just because one boy cannot take that shoota option. Am i correct?

If you want to argue intention, then the intention that a local gamer came up with is as follows:

No hidden pks for shootas means people won't just take shoota mobs only, and slugga mobs
will be on the table to hide the pk.

Posted By Doctor Thunder on 11/04/2007 8:02 AM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 7:26 AM

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 7:12 AM
so far that seems to be deadshane's only contribution/comment to orks. "no pk nobs for shootas"

upgrade boy to nob, switch his choppa for PK now have all the boys switch their choppa and slugga for shootas. Whats this madness the nob doesn't have BOTH choppa and slugga. Well i guess he can't get himself a nice shoota. Good night deadshane.

That goes on the assumption that you can go down to the bottom options then come back to the top options. One normally follows rules in order, and some codices do seem very much geared up to having the options taken in the order written (e.g IG). so your assumption may not be a good one.

Care to back that up?  I play IG and there are no options that indicate they have to be taken in any kind of order.  Please don't make up imaginary criteria like that and present them as fact.

Please re-read what I said, and don't ascribe imaginary statements to me.

I said that the IG codex seem very much geared up to having the options taken in the order written, I didn't state it was a fact that you have to, though I think you are. e.g. HQ unit

• 2 men may form a heavy weapon crew
• any one not a heavy weapon crew may have a special
• 1 not a heavy weapon crew or special weapon may have vox
• any one not a heavy weapon, special, vox may be a vet.

Given how each option is excluding what went before it, it does appear that they are meant to be taken in order, other wise you cold do the following
 
give someone a vox (not excluded as all normal guys)
give all plasma (one now has plasma and vox)
make a heavy crew (both crew have plasma).

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 8:48 AM


while we are at it, a boy with a special weapon cannot change his weapon for a shoota. unless you are arguing that the whole mob can only carry one type of weapon and any deviation of that is against the rules. For example i buy the special weapon first before i decide to have everyone get shootas. By your logic i can't switch the rest of the mob to shootas just because one boy cannot take that shoota option. Am i correct?

People keep suggesting this, to those people, I suggest you try reading the rules instead of making assumptions about them.

Its perfectly legal to trade in a shoota for a rokkit or a big shoota, since the rules state that you may trade in your slugga OR shoota for said weapon.  The rules DO NOT make that same allowance for the Nob were the powerklaw is concerned. 

You should really try reading the army list entry in question before you start arguing points about it.  It reduces the amount of times that you look silly.  Just saying.

Posted By malfred on 11/04/2007 9:24 AM
If you want to argue intention, then the intention that a local gamer came up with is as follows:

No hidden pks for shootas means people won't just take shoota mobs only, and slugga mobs
will be on the table to hide the pk.

Thats the main reason I would quite like to see the shoota PK disallowed, just to make the shootas maybe that little bit less of the no brainer that everyone is saying they are, If only choppa mobs get them then is a little more internal balance between the 2 main troop units.

yes he may trade in his slugga for a big shoota or rokkit, but then the whole mob can't trade in their slugga/choppa for a shoota at that point? Since they all do it. How is that different from the nob? Where he purchases gear first. Obviously the boy w/ big shoota or rokkit isn't going to give up his weapon for a shoota. Especially when he no longer has said weapon to trade over.

you are arguing the fact that he can trade a shoota for said weapon, but what if i do not want to make them all shootas first? Then your argument would be flawed no? So what stops me from upgrading the nob then switching over the shootas? The argument would stand nob + rokkit/big shoota boy would NOT trade in weapons they do not own.

cerealkiller:
And if our answer to that is, "Yes, you're quite right. If he trades in his slugga first, then the whole squad may not swap for shootas. You need to do the shoota swap first in order to get it to work"? What then?

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 9:46 AM
yes he may trade in his slugga for a big shoota or rokkit, but then the whole mob can't trade in their slugga/choppa for a shoota at that point? Since they all do it. How is that different from the nob? Where he purchases gear first. Obviously the boy w/ big shoota or rokkit isn't going to give up his weapon for a shoota. Especially when he no longer has said weapon to trade over.

you are arguing the fact that he can trade a shoota for said weapon, but what if i do not want to make them all shootas first? Then your argument would be flawed no? So what stops me from upgrading the nob then switching over the shootas? The argument would stand nob + rokkit/big shoota boy would NOT trade in weapons they do not own.

I think you have totally missed what that argument was about.

Boyz. choppa/slugga
don't go shoota
change some sluggas for specials
upgrade to nob, can be  a special weapon boy
upgrade nob choppa to PK

Boyz. choppa/slugga
upgrade to shoota
change some shootas for specials
upgrade to nob, can be  aspecial weapon boy
{nob can't upgrade to PK as has no choppa.?}

Both ways you get special weapons, which may be on the nob.

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 9:46 AM
yes he may trade in his slugga for a big shoota or rokkit, but then the whole mob can't trade in their slugga/choppa for a shoota at that point? Since they all do it. How is that different from the nob? Where he purchases gear first. Obviously the boy w/ big shoota or rokkit isn't going to give up his weapon for a shoota. Especially when he no longer has said weapon to trade over.

you are arguing the fact that he can trade a shoota for said weapon, but what if i do not want to make them all shootas first? Then your argument would be flawed no? So what stops me from upgrading the nob then switching over the shootas? The argument would stand nob + rokkit/big shoota boy would NOT trade in weapons they do not own.

Cerealkiller, what are you?  Like 8?  You want to know why your boys can do it in one order and not the other.....? :S

If you're trying to justify the Shoota Nob getting a PK with this arguement, it doesnt work either, since with the current wording, neither order works, Nob or boyz.  Therin lies the problem with the Shoota Nob.

teg i'm arguing that looking to much into the order of the rules is silly. obviously that is not the way it's supposed to be. So that would be my argument for the nob w/ pk it is just an oversight that they will hopefully fix, i just had to pull out that sort of 'tard logic' to try and figure it out from a different stand point.

puree im arguing for the order in which they are picked. Like i stated if you trade in the slugga from the boy for a special weapon even if you dont include the nob, that would mean that none of the orks can switch their slugga and choppas because they ALL can't.

That's nice. Try again when you have an actual RAW argument.


Correct! What's the problem?

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 10:13 AM
teg i'm arguing that looking to much into the order of the rules is silly. obviously that is not the way it's supposed to be. So that would be my argument for the nob w/ pk it is just an oversight that they will hopefully fix, i just had to pull out that sort of 'tard logic' to try and figure it out from a different stand point.

puree im arguing for the order in which they are picked. Like i stated if you trade in the slugga from the boy for a special weapon even if you dont include the nob, that would mean that none of the orks can switch their slugga and choppas because they ALL can't.

It doesnt work EITHER way....

...one more time for the guys in the rear seats, this is straight out of the book...

 

boyz are armed with choppas and sluggas

ENTIRE MOB may replace choppas and sluggas for shootas

One boy may be upgraded to Nob

He may replace his CHOPPA with a power klaw

 

...there you have it, those are the exact wordings.  Upgrade your nob FIRST and the entire mob no longer has choppas AND sluggas to trade in for shootas.  Upgrade him LAST and he has no choppa to trade in for a Klaw and you cant trade in a shoota for one.

....clear as mud?

hey shane i'm not pulling anything personal just trying to make sense of it if you just want it to be a flame war go ahead.

Moving on though if neither of the scenarios work then it's just an oversight in the part of GW. Because the way everyone is arguing makes it seem like you MUST do things in a certain order making it impossible to do any other variation on how you make an army list. This is simply not true there is no such thing/rule as creating an army list in one set way. We just have rules and/or guidelines on what we can take now necessarily how and in what order we take them.

i'm just saying that it doesn't make sense that even if the nob was not concerned that if you upgrade the a big shoota/rokkit boy before the others they cannot change weapons. When i would hope that the assumption would be that you can buy whatever gear you want on your nob and upgrade your boys to carry big shootas and rokkits. While at the same time giving the rest of the boys a shoota. If anything GW reads this thread and fixes the oversight with the possible:

any ork may trade his slugga/choppa for a shoota for: free
1 in 10 orks may trade his slugga for a big shoota or rokkit at X pts
1 boy may be upgraded to nob that can trade his slugga/choppa/shoot for X weapons and Y cost.

i'm only keeping this up to catch attention if it is true they lurk these boards they would fix this and my whole intent would be justified.

along w/ stormboyz getting the WAAAGH rule
giving deffkoptas mob rule can you say useless? they only max out at 5...
and so forth

Exactly. You can construct your army list in whatever order you like--only some orders will leave you unable to do certain things by virtue of the way the rules are phrased.

Posted By cerealkiller195 on 11/04/2007 10:20 AM
hey shane i'm not pulling anything personal just trying to make sense of it if you just want it to be a flame war go ahead.

No flame intended, but if you dont read and study the rules, you cant discuss a RAW issue.  You couldnt have read them based on your arguement.