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We're not trying to break it. We are breaking it.

Just imagine, Ork armies that need absolutely Zero mobs of Ork Boyz

I think I'll take a Mek with a Shokk Attack Gun and stick him in cover behind some Lootas.

He seems awfully unreliable (even suicidal), unlike let's say MORE Lootas. 45 of them should provide you with all the dakka you need. Shouldn't you rather equip your Mek with a KFF just in case you need to deploy your Lootahorde in the open?

i like the codex since it is the rock to mech eldars paper.

Posted By skkipper on 11/01/2007 9:43 PM
i like the codex since it is the rock to mech eldars paper.

  Um, you do know that paper beats rock, right? 

If you look at most of the other recent HQ choices from other books, the Ork boss IS ded ard.

Stormboyz drop in points and get fleet, suddenly they are the new broken.
Boyz drop in points, and get a much better ride.. they aren't even worth taking.
Lootsas went from initial impressions of "I would never take" to, "40 of them is so broken"!!

I love pre-codex release discussion.....

Does anyone else think they have f*ed up the wargear reference system?. Half the wargear is detailed in the wargear section and the other half (gear for individual units) is in the specific unit description. They have done this in the last few codeci. It makes it very annoying to find the details of a particular piece of wargear when in the middle of a game. Why make things hard like that (constantly flipping pages)? I liked the old codex format where ALL the wargear was in one section and the individual unit entries listed the wargear. You only had two places to look (unit entry and wargear section). Now you have three places to look (unit entry, unit description and wargear section). Change for the sake of change is not necessarily a good thing...

Toreador:

Are you imagining things? They went from "the sexx" (when it was known that they carry D3 shot autocannons) to "meh" (when their points costs became known) to "will need them anyway" (current state). I don't recall anyone ever claiming that they were bad.



Don't think many people said that, either. The idea is that foot mobz are better, not that trukk mobz suck.

Posted By Toreador on 11/01/2007 11:02 PM

Stormboyz drop in points and get fleet, suddenly they are the new broken.

Stormboyz don't get the fleet thing.

Um, they get better than Fleet. They get the additional movement in their movement phase, leaving them free to shoot (for what it's worth).

Actually they may get the fleet move during the Waagh turn and they always get the extra dice movement that they have to roll whenever they move using their rokkitpacks... So that could be: 12" movement + D6 (for using rokkitpacks) + D6 Waagh (when it is declared) and then 6" charge.  (edit: That would be a potential of up to 30" assault range in one turn.... a bit OTT IMHO)

Interestingly the Unit description (p 47) lists them as having the Waaagh special rule, but the Army list entry (p 101) does not.  Which is correct? Yea GW rules writers!!!  The codex isn't even officially released yet and already there are issues for an FAQ.

The Waaagh rule says infantry units get the fleet benefit.  Stormboyz are jump infantry.  Different thing altogether I know.  But which is the error?  Unit description or armylist entry?  Was it intentional for them to list Waaagh in the unit description as an exception to the "norm"?  Grrr...

Additionally, Boss Zagstruk is also listed as having the Waaagh special rule... 

edit- I see now in the Ork Codex Review thread that most of these points were already mentioned...

Posted By Beast on 11/02/2007 4:55 AM

Actually they may get the fleet move during the Waagh turn and they always get the extra dice movement that they have to roll whenever they move using their rokkitpacks... So that could be: 12" movement + D6 (for using rokkitpacks) + D6 Waagh (when it is declared) and then 6" charge.

Interestingly the Unit description (p 47) lists them as having the Waaagh special rule, but the Army list entry (p 101) does not.  Which is correct? Yea GW rules writers!!!  The codex isn't even officially released yet and already there are issues for an FAQ.

The Waaagh rule says infantry units get the fleet benefit.  Stormboyz are jump infantry.  Different thing altogether I know.  But which is the error?  Unit description or armylist entry?  Was it intentional for them to list Waaagh in the unit description as an exception to the "norm"?  Grrr...

Of course it probably doesn't matter that they were given it or not. If it only affects infantry then all they have is a rule that they cannot actually benefit from.

I'm personally inclined to say they don't get it. But have to wait and see I suppose,

[edit: I note that deffcopters are also listed as having waaagh in their unit description as well, they also clearly aren't infantry and probably aren't expected to have it? They also have the mob rule but with a max unit size of 5 that is another example of having something that they can't actually benefit from}

Yeah.  Deffkoptas do have it listed but warbikes don't...  What about a Nobz unit that takes bikes?  Same for Big mek and Warboss- do they still get it or do they change their type to "biker" if they take that wargear?

Posted By Pariah Press on 11/01/2007 10:22 PM

Posted By skkipper on 11/01/2007 9:43 PM
i like the codex since it is the rock to mech eldars paper.

  Um, you do know that paper beats rock, right? 

yes but it felt so wrong calling mech eldar a rock.

8 battle wagons with death rollers. running over skimmers

now that's fun 

Posted By skkipper on 11/02/2007 3:33 PM

8 battle wagons with death rollers. running over skimmers

now that's fun 

Lol - I'd totally missed that one. can't see to many eldar getting caught by it due to speed issues, but that would be funny.

Da falconcruncher of bork: deffrolla, wreckinball, grabba claw, 4 rokkits, red paint

d6 auto s10 hits, 50% chance s9 hit, 4 rokkits, and if yer still hovrin, 50% chance not moving next turn. all for less than the falcon.

Posted By puree on 11/02/2007 4:36 PM

Posted By skkipper on 11/02/2007 3:33 PM

8 battle wagons with death rollers. running over skimmers

now that's fun 

Lol - I'd totally missed that one. can't see to many eldar getting caught by it due to speed issues, but that would be funny.

That's why you castle your Lootas with your Deffwagons.

Falcons might be a little too fast for the average wagon. Monoliths, on the other hand...

Well, first and foremost, I'm taking him as the least of all evils. I don't like any of the HQ choices at all. I'd skip it entirely if I could.

That said, I think it's more reliable than it appears.

First off, the weapon is roughly S7 and AP2, with the AP being the important part. It's certainly not something you'd be confident shooting at heavier vehicles, but against most any infantry it's a great option.

It does have the wacky side effects. There's a 1 in 6 chance of them occurring, with 2 results being relatively awful, 3 are annoying, and one is downright wonderful. That makes the odds of "something awful happening" in a 6 turn game around 1 in 3. I'll deal with that.

Even if he blows up, the model is less than 100 points, and honestly that's a big reason I took him.



Not really. He's got some pretty good stats, and he's fairly cheap, but he's lacking in all the ways that count for an IC. His saves suck, his I is very borderline, and above all, he lacks a Power Weapon. He's really pretty worthless. In order to survive, an IC needs to wipe out his killzone, or come close, before he gets attacked back. Furious charge helps, but he'll soon get swamped. The big issue is the lack of Power Weapon.



This one is a little bizzare, I don't know why people haven't figured this out yet. They're talking about Shootas, or saying Boyz are weak, or fawning over the Stormboyz... And missing the fact that a Trukkfull of Boyz with a Klaw Nob is now one of the best values in the entire game.



Yeah, that blows quite a bit.



I think that comes as close to emperical falsehood as anything can in the crazy, multi-variable equation that is 40K. Trukks are very cheap, very fast, very easy to leap out of and hit stuff, and it's even kinda fun to be in one when it blows up.

Trukks aren't just fast enough to assure a turn 2 assault, they're fast enough to assure a turn 2 assault and still hide behind cover on the way in. They can go 25" in one round. They can deliver Orks to assault from 21" away.

The foot horde is crap. One Fleet move doesn't change that fact. A few overpriced KFFs doesn't change that.

 

Please don't make requests on Dakka to find the leaked Ork PDF, even if the request is partially in jest.

--yakface

Phryxis:
My intention was not to make the claim, but rather point out what, in fact, people have been saying. And that is that foot mobz are better, not that trukk mobz aren't worth taking (as Toreador said they were).

That's cool, I'm just saying that no matter what the source is, the idea that walking in is better that Trukking in is just silly.

In that resepct, and as much as I am growing to love Phil Kelly, that is an issue with this Codex. There's simply no reason not to take loads of Trukks full of Boyz. The internal balance isn't really there. I'll be running two Stormboy mobs in my list (as it stands now), but mostly that's just because I want to have some diversity. A Trukkful of choppas is just a better value. And considering what an incredible value Stormboyz are, that's saying something.

Posted By Beast on 11/02/2007 1:55 AM
Does anyone else think they have f*ed up the wargear reference system?. Half the wargear is detailed in the wargear section and the other half (gear for individual units) is in the specific unit description. They have done this in the last few codeci. It makes it very annoying to find the details of a particular piece of wargear when in the middle of a game. Why make things hard like that (constantly flipping pages)? I liked the old codex format where ALL the wargear was in one section and the individual unit entries listed the wargear. You only had two places to look (unit entry and wargear section). Now you have three places to look (unit entry, unit description and wargear section). Change for the sake of change is not necessarily a good thing...

Yeah, they've totally been screwing up the WG section in the last few codexes. I'm actually surprised that they can get approved to publish them the way they are. The entire WG section is just pointers to random pages throughout the book where you can find the actual rules. They could have at least reprinted what is scattered throughout the book here so it was easier to look things up.

Posted By Phryxis on 11/03/2007 11:20 AM

My intention was not not to make the claim, but rather point out what, in fact, people have been saying.

That's cool, I'm just saying that no matter what the source is, the idea that walking in is better that Trukking in is just silly.

In that resepct, and as much as I am growing to love Phil Kelly, that is an issue with this Codex. There's simply no reason not to take loads of Trukks full of Boyz. The internal balance isn't really there. I'll be running two Stormboy mobs in my list (as it stands now), but mostly that's just because I want to have some diversity. A Trukkful of choppas is just a better value. And considering what an incredible value Stormboyz are, that's saying something.

I have to say that you are completely and utterly wrong on this point.

Not that Trukk boyz aren't useful (they are) just that they are more useful than footslogging boys.

What you have failed to calculate in your conclusion is a couple of very important changes to the way Orks behave.


#1 Orks lost their Choppa but also dropped in points. While point-for-point the new slugga boy is superior to the old slugga boy, the problem with Trukk mobs is that you are limited in taking advantage of that point superiority: You can't take more than 12 Orks in a Trukk. So while footslogging boys can take full 30 man mobs to really benefit from the new Ork statline/points cost Trukk boyz cannot. If you come into a game expecting a Trukkload of 12 Boyz to do roughly the same damage that 10 Trukkboyz used to do (if they mangaged to get into combat unmolosted) you are going to be in for a big surprise.

Even if you take all six of your Troops choices as Trukk boyz you're still only dealing with 72 Orks.  A number that could be enough if it weren't for point #2.


#2 Orks are drastically weaker in the morale department. Nobs can't take +1Ld anymore and the new mob rule means that once Orks get under 11 men in the unit, they become really vulnerable to running away. If this happens to be in combat, you are almost certainly going to have your Ork unit rundown with its paltry I2.

And this is why Trukk boyz are ultimately quite balanced in the new codex. With a cap of only 12 Orks, and a base Ld of 7, as soon as the unit takes any casualties (as they may well when their Trukk explodes) they will immediately start to be in that danger zone. And unlike in the old codex where falling back Ork units would mob up, once an Ork unit that is under 50% starts to flee, it is going to keep on running.

Again, this is where Footslogging mobs shine. The ability to take large mobs removes the issue of failing leadership until much later in the game. And to dismiss the impact of the 'Waaagh' is ridiculous. A single D6" move can often be the difference between a turn 3 or 4 charge and ignoring a whole turns worth of close range shooting from the enemy. Also, if players take 1 or 2 Warpheads they may well get a second (or more) 'Waaagh'.


Also, the new KFF rules are ridiculously good for the points. The only requirement now is that the unit must be within 6" of the mek which means you only have to keep a single model in range from each unit and it will be protected.

A gigantic mob of cheap Orks protected by a KFF marching forward across the battlefield with one (or more) Waaaghs to help propel them should do just fine indeed.

What Yak said.

I'm thinking the new staple unit of any ork army is 20-30 shootas with a klaw. 6 or those creates a real problem for the enemy.

Now if I can just figure out how to crack a monolith with this new list, I'll be all set.

WHo needs to kill the monolith when you can phase them.

Posted By Darkness on 11/03/2007 6:16 PM
WHo needs to kill the monolith when you can phase them.

And the question of whether or not you can phase them out raises a new question:

Can you successfully play Keep Away from 120-180 Orks?

You kill the Monolith with the Warboss on Bike with a S10 Power Klaw and 7 Attacks on the charge. That's the main reason I don't want to do dual KFF Meks (now that KFF's magically expand to entire mobs).

Considering we now have some tasty 36 and 48" range firepower, I think it'll be hard for them to stay away.

And we have a bunch of nice antitank options.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 11/03/2007 7:17 PM
You kill the Monolith with the Warboss on Bike with a S10 Power Klaw and 7 Attacks on the charge. That's the main reason I don't want to do dual KFF Meks (now that KFF's magically expand to entire mobs).

Its a skimmer

A warboss gives you what?  One chance to kill it before dying? (and running the numbers, I believe you have something in the range of a 1.3% chance of killing one with the Warboss)

And this plan immediately backfires if they have multiples. 

and who would believe that a ship capable of obliterating a planet could be destroyed by a lucky shot.