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Posted By Deadshane1 on 10/30/2007 5:28 PM

Posted By TragicNut on 10/30/2007 5:22 PM

Well you see, the Nob trades in his Choppa for a Klaw, then the mob of boyz trade in their choppas and sluggas for shootaz. I fail to see the problem.

...then you need to look closer.  When they say THE ENTIRE MOB does that not include the Nob?  He IS part of the Mob after all, it doenst specify boyz, it just says the entire mob.  Therin lies the problem.  The nob doesnt have a choppa anymore, therefore the ENTIRE MOB cant trade in their sluggaz and CHOPPAS for shootas.

clear enough?

Actually it's not..... you give the nob a power klaw, replacing his choppa, then the entire mob replaces all remaining choppas and sluggas with shootas..... the nob doesn't have a choppa anymore, therefore he doesn't trade it in. The ENTIRE MOB is still trading in all of their choppas and sluggas.

Posted By yakface on 10/30/2007 8:30 PM

Just want to mention to everyone that you are discussing leaked copyrighted information, so please only speak in generalities and please do not post any actual statistics or points-values.

Most importantly any discussion on where to actually find the rules will result in a quick lock of the thread and temporary suspension of posting priveleges for whoever posts a link.

I don't 'spose you'd have a problem with another Cover-2-Cover review right Yak? Afterall, I did that long before the Chaos Codex was out...

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/30/2007 9:58 PM

Posted By yakface on 10/30/2007 8:30 PM

Just want to mention to everyone that you are discussing leaked copyrighted information, so please only speak in generalities and please do not post any actual statistics or points-values.

Most importantly any discussion on where to actually find the rules will result in a quick lock of the thread and temporary suspension of posting priveleges for whoever posts a link.

I don't 'spose you'd have a problem with another Cover-2-Cover review right Yak? Afterall, I did that long before the Chaos Codex was out...

BYE

 

You did that with an actual (legally bought) copy of the codex, IIRC. There's no way to do a "cover-to-cover" reveiw of the Ork codex currently as we don't know what will actually be in the codex, and the PDF doesn't contain even contain all the pages in the codex.

In short, no it would not be acceptable to do a review of the PDF as a review of the codex and if you are simply reviewing the PDF it would be pretty tricky to discuss anything in detail without giving away huge swathes of the rules.

Posted By Angron on 10/30/2007 9:52 PM
The ENTIRE MOB is still trading in all of their choppas and sluggas.

no, in your example, the REST of the mob is doing so.

"The entire mob may replace their choppas and sluggas with shootas"

since one model has no choppa...no shootas.

I'm not really saying I agree with this interpretation, but I thought I would throw it out there for the hardcore RAW fans as I think this might be the interpretation that they will see once the book comes out.

I see what you mean though Angron, its just that I think that the other codeii word it better when such a situation comes up.

Posted By yakface on 10/30/2007 10:10 PM

You did that with an actual (legally bought) copy of the codex, IIRC. There's no way to do a "cover-to-cover" reveiw of the Ork codex currently as we don't know what will actually be in the codex, and the PDF doesn't contain even contain all the pages in the codex.

In short, no it would not be acceptable to do a review of the PDF as a review of the codex and if you are simply reviewing the PDF it would be pretty tricky to discuss anything in detail without giving away huge swathes of the rules.

As it happens, I didn't write that with a copy of the Codex in hand, I did it with a PDF. I got the Codex a week later in the army box.

And the pages this version appears to be missing are:

1. Any pages of just artwork, no text.
2. The colour section (oh, such a big loss).
3. And - and I'm sure everyone will find this ironic - the summary page.

I can still review the Codex, and if you take care to read my review of the Chaos one, you can hardly build a list from what I've written there. Chances are there are posts on Warseer that allow you to better play with the new Ork Codex than any review of mine would include.

BYE

H.B.M.C. If you've already got it written, PM it to me if you would.  I thought your Chaos reveiw was great even if I didnt quite agree with it all.

...after all, you were just pissed at the power loss..... j/k

Posted By Recklessfable on 10/30/2007 6:48 PM

Posted By tRiXxX on 10/30/2007 6:44 PM
If this leaked codex is so rife that every second person has seen it, then why isn't it uploaded on bittorrent somewhere?
Ang0r! I want to see it goddammit

Your search-foo is weak.

got it now
nice call lol
i feel like such a nub

All right, just to recap, this codex is apparently the bees' knees? I understand Slugga Boyz and Grots are bad enough to be useless in competitive lists?

After reading the new Ork Codex I can say it seems to be great addition to 40K. It has some huge fixes (Trukks!) without being overly powerful. It will definately produce some competitive armies. Noone seems to be forced to play either all footsloggers or all mounted Orks.

The Trukk special rule is how all mounted units should work in 40K. Getting entangled once your ride is popped is simply too much. For Orks now it will be enough to get one movement phase out of the Trukk and the boys are hitting home next turn no matter what (as long as there are footslogging enemy targets available). The compromise of Boys in wrecked Trukks getting wounded on 5's is a nice touch. Grot riggers working in the shooting phase makes them less cheesy than before but still nice -- Also a nice touch.

So how will these Orks fare against Lash Chaos, mech Eldar and Godzilla? I think all of those three have a good chance of defeating the Orks as the lists certainly has its counters but I wouldn't ever rule out the Orks again. All in all they might bring a breath of life to the tournament scene.

Someone will eventually build an Ork version of Godzilla etc, but the list seems to have enough flexibility to avoid falling into a pigeonhole. If you make an all mounted Trukk and Wagon assault, mobile Eldar and Tau will be able to pick up a lot of VPs from the fragile vehicles and then try to deal with the small Ork mobs one by one. If you make an all footslogger list, the mech Eldar will have to play for a draw or a minor victory since there's simply too many models to effectively wipe out for such a small elite force, but can a slow footslogger Ork horde really withstand the Devourer/Obliterator onslaught and have enough models alive during turn four to deal with the Nid/Chaos assault elements? As it stands I think not. Devourers wipe out entire mobs and the smaller Chaos firepower is compensated by the fact that there are two Chaos models moving Ork mobs back each turn. If it so happens that a mixed approach proves to be the most effective one then Phil Kelly can consider his job well done.

Heh. Look at the paragraph on Golgotha on page 19. The Squats have not been forgotten!

The date on the scan is in July...So I really doubt anything has changed since the rumors...

Posted By Pariah Press on 10/31/2007 1:26 AM
Heh. Look at the paragraph on Golgotha on page 19. The Squats have not been forgotten!

The book mentions the S-word? That'd certainly be unusual.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/30/2007 8:26 PM
Nothing really changed at all.

Ghazgulls Waagh doesn't take up a Waaagh for the game (Ie. you can still call a normal one, just not a second one that turn). This is exactly how it was in Orkdom's summary.

Re-read it.  Ghazgull's Waagh replaces the normal one.

what's so great about shoota boyz vs. slugga boyz? i keep hearing that they're great now, but haven't heard why yet.

I was wrong on the Waaagh for Ghazgull, over-enthusiasm for the new dex and late night re-reading of his rules got to me. Sorry for the mistake.

The great thing about Shootas vs. Sluggas is that Shootas are now 18" S4 AP6 Assault 2. They don't need to be in CC to start doing Decent damage to enemy units, and pose a pretty potent shooting threat, especially combined with Rokkits.

what's so great about shoota boyz vs. slugga boyz

Shootas are now like Dire Avenger Shuriken Catapults (not quite as good AP).

Very happy to hear that Codex rks isn't the fest of broken I thought it was shaping up to be. Glad that fun units are in, and the build-a-looted-vehicle entry sounds like good stuff. Also pleased that Zag won't be in every list ala Eldrad Alwaystaken

- Salvage

I think the "build your own looted vehichle" could be the start of something hot. I had mentioned something similar as a good option for LatD "local flavor" vehicles. If it doesn't end up being silly broken, it might be a good start for an extremely flexible army make up for LatD, representing the plethora of traitors and PDF forces using their own non-stc vehicles. That would be a great deal of fun, and perhaps might lead to a demi-VDR sort of set up. Fingers are crossed.

Note that I haven't actually seen the entry or how in-depth it is, but I wonder at such a complex unit existing in the Nü Gee-Dub Focus on simplicity (look at the Chaos vehicle upgrades to see the apocalypse that this is for vehicles). It seems that Kelly alone is allowed to chunk out entries with enormous amounts of upgrades - the carnifex and now this build-a-vehicle.

So cross another set of fingers that Kelly gets to write LatD, in addition to it being written at all

- Salvage

If only I were polydactyl!

It is really wierd though how there are practically two different design teams. Maybe Kelly has an office across town, and so the two groups never really work on things together.

Ok, and everyone has to exchange their normal clothing for a prison jumpsuit before they can get into prison. But if you show up naked, they're not going to let you go.

I think everyone sees your point, but to argue that it's the RAW is not correct. The wording here is a bit ambiguous. I don't think anybody is going to notice.



And a weapon summary? Or did I just miss it?



If by "useless" you mean "mandatory" then yes. They're the only two Troops choices, so you need at least two. Unless you mean Slugga Boyz as opposed to Shoota Boyz.

Honestly, I think two Trukks full of Slugga Boyz seems like a real solid choice. The Trukk rules are very, very favorable now, what with the chance to turn a wreck into an even faster and more successful assault. Never in my life has the term "Ramshackle" seemed so positive.



No question they improved Shootas, but I don't get this undercurrent of Shoota Worship I think I'm hearing. Brian Nelson may have made the Shoota, but the Shoota isn't Brian Nelson, you don't worship it.

Seriously tho, why give up CC attacks? It's where the Orks are doing their best work. I'd rather have another Furious Charge attack at Orky WS than another shooting attack at Orky BS.  It's not the end of the world, the Shoota Boyz will still be solid in CC, especially now that the choppa is not adding any major benefit, but I think I'd rather my Orks could get the big bulk of CC attacks they need to compensate for their horrid I score.


HEEYYYYYY!!! Am I correct that they took away my Looted Russ? I don't see it in the list right now.

Posted By Phryxis on 10/31/2007 8:12 AM

no, in your example, the REST of the mob is doing so.

Ok, and everyone has to exchange their normal clothing for a prison jumpsuit before they can get into prison. But if you show up naked, they're not going to let you go.

I think everyone sees your point, but to argue that it's the RAW is not correct. The wording here is a bit ambiguous. I don't think anybody is going to notice.

And the pages this version appears to be missing are

And a weapon summary? Or did I just miss it?

I understand Slugga Boyz and Grots are bad enough to be useless in competitive lists?

If by "useless" you mean "mandatory" then yes. They're the only two Troops choices, so you need at least two. Unless you mean Slugga Boyz as opposed to Shoota Boyz.

Honestly, I think two Trukks full of Slugga Boyz seems like a real solid choice. The Trukk rules are very, very favorable now, what with the chance to turn a wreck into an even faster and more successful assault. Never in my life has the term "Ramshackle" seemed so positive.

Shootas are now like Dire Avenger Shuriken Catapults

No question they improved Shootas, but I don't get this undercurrent of Shoota Worship I think I'm hearing. Brian Nelson may have made the Shoota, but the Shoota isn't Brian Nelson, you don't worship it.

Seriously tho, why give up CC attacks? It's where the Orks are doing their best work. I'd rather have another Furious Charge attack at Orky WS than another shooting attack at Orky BS.  It's not the end of the world, the Shoota Boyz will still be solid in CC, especially now that the choppa is not adding any major benefit, but I think I'd rather my Orks could get the big bulk of CC attacks they need to compensate for their horrid I score.


HEEYYYYYY!!! Am I correct that they took away my Looted Russ? I don't see it in the list right now.

It's basically the enclosed looted Wagon with a Boomcannon (the illustration even shows a Russ), I guess we can assume that when the Mek loots it, he tears out some of the armor.

Or you can always take an enclosed Battlewagon with a Killacannon. Of course it costs more than a Russ, has a worse gun than the Russ, has weaker side armor than a Russ, and a BS of 2, but at least it can carry 12 models (not to useful, I know).

Honestly, I think I'll be playing my looted Russ as a an enclosed looted Wagon. It really isn't too bad a deal for the gun it carries. You just need to make sure you take lots of Trukks so your opponent doesn't have an easy choice of what to shoot at.

So does the nob loose his slugga when the mob gives up slugga and chopa? Does he have a shoota and klaw while the slugga boyz nob gets klaw and slugga?

Looted Wagon is basically where all the old Leman Russ's and Basilisks go.

I kinda figured most looted vehicles start their orky existence as battlefield salvage, hence the dinked armor making sense - the rokkits what downed it have to have left some mark!

- Salvage

Posted By Deadshane1 on 10/30/2007 10:12 PM

Posted By Angron on 10/30/2007 9:52 PM
The ENTIRE MOB is still trading in all of their choppas and sluggas.

no, in your example, the REST of the mob is doing so.

"The entire mob may replace their choppas and sluggas with shootas"

since one model has no choppa...no shootas.

I'm not really saying I agree with this interpretation, but I thought I would throw it out there for the hardcore RAW fans as I think this might be the interpretation that they will see once the book comes out.

I see what you mean though Angron, its just that I think that the other codeii word it better when such a situation comes up.

I know you do Deadshane, we both agree, ork players are still going to bring them, we're just arguing RAW, and I'm not done argueing. It just says "the ENTIRE MOB", it doesn't say "EVERY MODEL IN THE MOB MUST REPLACE THEIR CHOPPAS", so as long as all choppas in the mob, not every model, are accounted for, RAW seems to be satisfied.

I agree with Angron. This is faulty logic.


If you have a classroom full of kids and you make a rue that says: the entire classroom must exchange their pens for pencils, if there are any kids in the classroom who don't have pens the entire exchange isn't suddenly invalidated, rather the kids who don't have pens just don't exchange them for pencils.

The only thing that would make any difference in this discussion is if there were an order to it. If you go down the list in order, it cannot be done. Otherwise there is no real issue. Using the logic above, if I took rokkits and shootas before exchanging for shootas I couldn't do it as they no longer have the slugga to trade in.

But it almost does seem like there is an order to how you do things. You work down the list outfitting as you go. To do it this way you could not give a Nob in a shoota squad a powerklaw, any other way he can.

I just find it odd that they are very specific in most of the entries, and even that entry to say exactly what you can and can't replace.

When you upgrade to a heavier weapon, they make certain and say slugga or shoota

I agree that a nob can be upgraded before the mob swaps for shootas. I think that there is history, intent, and a desire to not screw over hobbyists to justify an incredibly precise reading of the rule, especially since a casual reading of the rules would result in the same outcome. First off, why no heavy weapon, or even combi weapon upgrade for shooy nobs? The models are out there, unless GW want's all non-HtH nobs to be re-designated Flash Gitz.

What worries me isn't some guy claiming that shoota nobs can't have claws. Even the tournaments I go to (I live in the Cleveland Ohio area) tend to be pretty low key, with no rules fascists (I hate using the word Nazi to describe anybody that isn't a National Socialist).

What does worry me is GW in a year of so finally dropping an FAQ that says, "You must swap weapons before all other upgrades." Is it just me, or is that enough of a fear to justify holding off on building an Ork army?

I sadly still don't think Kommandos are worth it, even though I will still field them.

There are too many selections per org that really compete with each other. I am having a hard time coming up with any kind of list.

It really seems to follow the basic pattern most other armies have taken. Klaws are expensive, along with most heavy weapons (like rokkits) went up in points.

Posted By Polonius on 10/31/2007 9:02 AM
I agree that a nob can be upgraded before the mob swaps for shootas. I think that there is history, intent, and a desire to not screw over hobbyists to justify an incredibly precise reading of the rule, especially since a casual reading of the rules would result in the same outcome. First off, why no heavy weapon, or even combi weapon upgrade for shooy nobs? The models are out there, unless GW want's all non-HtH nobs to be re-designated Flash Gitz.

What worries me isn't some guy claiming that shoota nobs can't have claws. Even the tournaments I go to (I live in the Cleveland Ohio area) tend to be pretty low key, with no rules fascists (I hate using the word Nazi to describe anybody that isn't a National Socialist).

What does worry me is GW in a year of so finally dropping an FAQ that says, "You must swap weapons before all other upgrades." Is it just me, or is that enough of a fear to justify holding off on building an Ork army?

The whole Tyranid Warrior style FAQ coming out is something that scares me when I think about this.

It makes me want to build a KoS styled army without using "the horde" approach. You can always use PK Nobz, what I don't want to end up with is 64 Shoota Boyz models who will suddenly become not worth fielding without their PK Nob.

I think we should be safe though.