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Kanluwen wrote:
Honestly, it's just annoying to me in that I've taken the time and effort to paint my stuff--and then I have to play against someone who's taken none whatsoever to improve their own stuff.

That preference and effort is your own out come , you get satisfaction from your own completed painted army.
Why are you entitled to enforce this effort you spent onto someone else? Is your existence so great that in order to confirm this self effort
you must see it been reflected into your opponent's army?

心胸狹窄

I guess it depends on how you view the game.

I think a game between players is a non-verbal contract. The contract essentially states 'I know I can't have fun without your mutual participation and you rely on me in the same fashion. So lets work through game problems and try to have fun'. I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with that.

Given that, we are involved in a hobby where a high majority of players paint/model. The parent company that pushes the game system also pushes the model aspect of the hobby (highly). So, you can't be upset when another player enjoys games against painted armies. It's a part of the hobby and by showing up with your plastic blob, you've already possibly encroached on that above mentioned contract. Against other players who also play with gray plastic? Well who the hell cares then? Play.

However, if you refuse to paint your miniatures in a hobby that encourages/sales modeling.....you can't justify getting angry when people avoid playing you. Or when you play in tournaments that reward it. On a personal note (Not used for argument, just my opinion), it boggles my mind that people would spend the cash GW demands for their models....but not paint them. Why not just use boxes of appropriate size marked "Land Raider"?

/Ejects from thread

LunaHound wrote:... it really is a shame to miss games due to lack of paint job.

No, its not. Its no more a shame than declining a game due to hygiene, or the color of someone's shirt. You chose not to play a game with someone who chose not to paint.

If you're not painting in your own house, or club environment, more power to you. Have a blast. If you're in your FLGS that's a touch different. If they tolerate that, its their business. On the flip side of that, if the FLGS, gaming club, what have you, holds an expectation of some painting progress to a sensible goal...3 colors for example (primer, wash, and metal of some sort comes to mind) then bucking the convention doesn't do anything more than reflect a lack of respect.

I see it as a show of respect to the host, since its nice to look over and see people playing with painted stuff. It helps a customer see a painted army and the FLGS gets a chance to make another sale. Paint also makes things easier for the opponent to identify separate units and gives them something nicer to look at than reminders of the inevitable heap of unpainted product in their workspace. Imagine for a moment an unpainted guard army. Cheating or simply too busy to paint - you decide.

In the time it took to make this discussion, defend positions, and counter them LunaHound could have primed a unit, given it a quick wash, and slapped another color on(but chose not to). Painted, drama avoided with a minimum of effort...or another smaller game could have been played. I'm frustrated that I (by proxy) received an accusation of elitism for what I see as a show of respect.

Oldgrue wrote:
In the time it took to make this discussion, defend positions, and counter them LunaHound could have primed a unit, given it a quick wash, and slapped another color on(but chose not to). Painted, drama avoided with a minimum of effort...or another smaller game could have been played. I'm frustrated that I (by proxy) received an accusation of elitism for what I see as a show of respect.

K , for the very last time , dont patronize me , check my gallery, I-DO-PAINT . You guys truly think this thread is drama? No , its real incidents that happens to people.
Drama is only created by people that chose to . You know its really really funny . I'll repeat this again " its incredible . you think because i created this thread, this situation is related to me personally?"
thats so far from the truth . Or is it my painting is so awful that you think its worse then primed + slapping wash on?

And please answer this i asked a few times already :

Can you address this issue so i can atleast understand your view on it.

a) some people cant visualize how the army plays by simply reading the codex . they have to physically play it.

b) most people dont allow proxy for entire armies , thus A: they have to purchase the army for the sake of even trying it.

c) if they dont even know whether they'll like the army or not , to hastily paint the army just to satisfy you , and at the end of the day the current army
is totally different than what they envisioned , then what?

d) they just totally ruined the resale value of their army to satisfy your preference.

Again , i must repeat , both side have preference and are entitled to it. But when you come down to this ultimate reality, there is more at stake then what you think.

Losing $400 per army vs make your picky opponent happy .

Here is a key issue I think people are missing. If player A likes to play warhammer and enjoys it regardless of painting then player A will be able to enjoy his free time playing a game with and against armies painted or not. If player B likes to play warhammer with painted armies because it is more scenimatic and aestheticly pleasing then they will get the most enjoyment out of playing armies that are painted.

Is it anyones right to deny these individuals the freedom to spend their free time doing what is most enjoyable to them?

If player B wants to only play painted armies because it is far more enjoyable to them why is it that some people claim they are elitists? Maybe they can only play one game a week. Is it your right to tell them they can't enjoy their free time? If they politely avoid playing the players with unpainted armies and aren't rude about it, who are you to judge them and call them elistists?

I think many Player A type people seem to think that because they don't care about painting and will enjoy a game of bare plastic as much as painted that if they get turned down from a game offer it's some sort of elitism. It isn't player A's right to force player B to play a game they will less than likely enjoy just to feel a little bit better emotionally.

Player A's in this thread keep trying to get player B's to see it there way but I don't think any of you have bothered to see it player B's way. It cuts both ways and you should try and remember that other people don't have to spend their time doing something unenjoyable just because you think that the alternative is elitism.

This of course depends on people not being rude about it. Anyone who honestly gives someone crap for having bare plastic has some problems.

Wayfarer wrote:Here is a key issue I think people are missing. If player A likes to play warhammer and enjoys it regardless of painting then player A will be able to enjoy his free time playing a game with and against armies painted or not. If player B likes to play warhammer with painted armies because it is more scenimatic and aestheticly pleasing then they will get the most enjoyment out of playing armies that are painted.

Is it anyones right to deny these individuals the freedom to spend their free time doing what is most enjoyable to them?

If player B wants to only play painted armies because it is far more enjoyable to them why is it that some people claim they are elitists? Maybe they can only play one game a week. Is it your right to tell them they can't enjoy their free time? If they politely avoid playing the players with unpainted armies and aren't rude about it, who are you to judge them and call them elistists?

I think many Player A type people seem to think that because they don't care about painting and will enjoy a game of bare plastic as much as painted that if they get turned down from a game offer it's some sort of elitism. It isn't player A's right to force player B to play a game they will less than likely enjoy just to feel a little bit better emotionally.

Player A's in this thread keep trying to get player B's to see it there way but I don't think any of you have bothered to see it player B's way. It cuts both ways and you should try and remember that other people don't have to spend their time doing something unenjoyable just because you think that the alternative is elitism.

This of course depends on people not being rude about it. Anyone who honestly gives someone crap for having bare plastic has some problems.

Thank you , this is by far the best Type 2 player response.

Wolfstan wrote:There have been some damn good replies defending unpainted models on the post, many of them much better then I could articulate, but in the end they are probably wasted as I can't see the painted mindset changing their minds seeing how shallow they are. You've managed to implement a class system within a hobby, well done.

What does create a class system in the gaming side of the hobby is the cost of things. All the most powerful vehicles and characters are the most expensive which creates a ceiling to those with less money, some people have to manage with the same army all the time, others can choose from a full range and tailor their army for every battle, and buy every other codex as well if they wish. GW create that effect themselves through their pricing structure.

But a class system created on the basis of painting? Rubbish. Painting the miniatures is not beyond a person's control unlike their finances. Loads of people struggle to find the time to paint their figures, but if they make no progress month after month then they're not making the effort. Some peopel argue they do other things. Well yes, that's true enough. But what happens when a person has multiple interests and hobbies is that they find they've not got the time to invest fully in them all and in this case it would seem the painting side is being dispensed so that they can play on their X-box, or go horse riding or playing golf or watching TV. It's still a matter of choice where to spend your time so it's entirely your choice to turn up with unpainted minis.

Personally I have mixed feelings on the issue.

On the one hand, I would never turn down a FLGS game offer just because the person had an unpainted army. Everyone has to start somewhere and everyone is different distances along in their hobby travels.

On the other hand, it's fun to play with a painted army. The grand spectacle of two armies painted to at least a tabletop standard is something to behold. It's more visually pleasing.

Tournaments are (at least in theory) an exploration of all aspects of the hobby and I appreciate the effort people put into their armies. Please try to paint your army. If the rules specify that no unpainted models can be used, don't bitch and fuss or namecall... paint your gak or don't go.

Seriously, the time argument is a non-starter.

Let's take an 1850 Blood Angels army for example (this also works for other Space Marines, Necrons, Tau, Tyranids, Eldar, etc.).

Let's say the army is 60 models including a few tanks.

Step 1:

Spray paint the model red. (Time: 1 hour, easily divided into 15 minute chunks while you wait for the paint to dry anyway.)

Step 2:

Dunk the models in red wash or Devlan Mud, you'll need to use a large tank brush to get it on your tanks. (Time: 1 - 2 hours)

Step 3:

Paint the Bolters black, the eyes green and add a few splashes of metal. Paint the tank tracks black and drybrush some metal on them. (Time: 3 - 4 hours).


It takes the same amount of time as 1-2 games to get your army full painted to a table-top standard. This level of effort is all that anyone ever expect other players to make.

My own painting is a lot more intricate and time-consuming, but that's because I enjoy taking the time. If you hate painting, it's still worth investing a couple hours of your time to make the game that much more visually appealing and interesting.

Agree. It is not more fun to play an opponent with a painted army than it is to face a non painted army, but it is more interesting.

That being said, a lot of the non-painting party seem to have the attitude of "Woohoo! Revolt againts oppressive societal norms!" when it comes to this thread.

Incidentaly, how long do you think it will take for mods to lock this thread?

I don't think refusing to play someone on the grounds that they refuse to paint their army is any more unreasonable than refusing to play someone who refuses to learn the rules well.

Some people prefer the spectacle of two well-painted armies battling over nice terrain to a tactical/strategic exercise.

Calling them "elitist" and comparing yourself to African-Americans discriminated against during the Jim Crow era (for some reason) isn't really justified.

Kanluwen wrote:Any hobby has a natural set of "rules" that come with it.

You don't expect someone who plays paintball regularly to not do the research and get a decent gun, or someone whose hobby is working on cars to not do any form of research.

The thing with those sports is..if someone's following the safety regs they can use a cheap POS marker or show up in a Yugo, but their game is going to suffer from using inferior components and they'll lose a lot due to malfunctions until they wise up and invest time and money in better gear.

In this game, an unpainted miniature isn't going to throw the game unless they count painting into the points you earn. If you're a sharp player, you can still place high based on your ability. You won't really suffer from having a shoddy looking army.

Leotilt wrote:Wow a lot of childish mindsets in this thread.

You guys know that it is ok for other people to spend there money how they want and play a game how they want to play. If someone does not want to paint but enjoys playing warhams then that is cool, no really it is, he is ok to do that without being wierd just because he does not view the world through the same eyes that you do.

Enjoying the Hobby in two different ways is ALSO fine, and the fact that someone would be willing to share their experience in painting (and gaming for that matter) with another players is fantastic; diversity has a lot to offer us as people. The fact remains that you as an individual are allowed to make decisions that effect how you play you particular hobby with other people. If I don't want to play an unpainted army after 5 or 6 games against it, I would call that totally reasonable and fair; I have most definitely tried to help the other player enjoy the part of the hobby that I wish to take a part in.

"Note"
Mind-games on the internet don't tend to go nowhere but arguments, so calling EVERYONE out on a certain "side" is really unnecessary. Picking on specific people is also unnecessary and is petty on top of it. We all have our opinions and we are entitled to them as long as we are respectful about doing so. Respect is quite a universal trait; perhaps one culture jumps through a hoop, and the other jumps over a bush, but the end result equates the same thing.

LunaHound wrote:
Or is it my painting is so awful that you think its worse then primed + slapping wash on?

Now we've both ruffled each other's feathers on accident and I apologize.
I was trying to demonstrate that for all the time spent arguing the position, any person could sling just a little paint.

To clarify my position:

A) This seems strange to me that someone can't read a stat block and understand the general principles of a unit, thus by extension the army. I read tech manuals for a living, so I can only accept this at face value.
B) Proxied armies are for friends, borrowed armies are for pickup games...or find an opponent who'll let you test drive a proxy. Asking is a precursor to permission.
C) So someone decided to buy an army whole cloth to test it out because they can't do a little due diligence (or can't comprehend) , and can't ask to borrow/test drive/ proxy... Seems alien to me.
D) Resale value? This isn't a car. Its a bloody game. A person getting into a game with an eye to resale value has unrealistic expectations. Clothes, books, tableware, and furniture are not purchased for resale value. Who in their right mind buys for resale value?

As I see it these are excuses for mediocrity. (A) seems to be having issues with reading comprehension. (B) is stubborn or prideful (C) is impulsive (maybe young) and (D) is unrealistic. Anyone who cites all of these seems to have just a bit of cognitive dissonance going on. Forgive me if I'm being unreasonable in considering bucking a social convention and being offended by the response is more than a little childish.


Quick edit:
其粗魯發表意見其他語言。發揮公平

Back when I was in the SCA, everyone tried their best to make campsites look "period" because a lot of people took a lot of time and effort and money so they could spend the weekend and pretend they were in the Middle Ages. You would believe you were there and then all of a sudden, you see an igloo cooler or someone playing on a notebook and the illusion was ruined.

This game is sort of the same way, we want to imagine there are two armies in a war torn future fighting for their lives and then someone brings in a Lego truck or a squad of gray albinos to mix in with their allie's 'Eavy Metal painted army and it throws it off and it's just a game again..we've all done it so we can try something out without wasting the time and money buying and painting a unit that will suck.

What we have to do is motivate each other to paint and build, not run off newer players or people that think they're unskilled at it. My group helps each other all the time. One guy is a whiz at detailing tanks to make them look like they just came in out of a prolonged campaign, but he can't paint tanks worth a darn, so I've painted more than a few of his tanks for him. We've got a guy who can sculpt as good as someone from Forgeworld, but he needs encouragement in painting, so the better painters give him tips. They're all whizzes at playing and tactics, so they give me hints (I'm pretty scatterbrained, it's all up to the luck of the dice for me, and the deal I did with the devil to make my scatter die not scatter so much. )

Wayfarer has a good handle on it. Painters have no right to force others to paint, just as they have no right to force painters to play unpainted armies. It's hypocritical to demand the right to do or not do what you like, while crying foul if someone exercises a similar right.

Wolfstan wrote:You've managed to implement a class system within a hobby, well done.

I thank you sir, for the epic lulz. I'm sorry to hear you have such a persecution complex, but I think you take the issue far more seriously than the rest of us.

combatmedic wrote:You know what. I blame Luna for starting this thread and making everyone yell at each other.

YOUR RUINING THIS FAMILY LUNA.

Oh.... diggity-damn.

"Note"
If you really want to play with someone and they appreciate your painting enough to let you take a stab at their army, offer the opportunity. Some might have the time to finish your army (with skill) in under a day. You go over to their house, drink some beer, have some BBQ, and they slap 3 colors and some wash on your minis. Sure it may be wishful thinking some of the time, but if you pay for the supplies, I would think you could find a friend or two willing to help you out.

Asmodai wrote:

It takes the same amount of time as 1-2 games to get your army full painted to a table-top standard. This level of effort is all that anyone ever expect other players to make.

What if time constraints means that you have a choice of painting, or playing? I know I'd rather be playing.

Also, who's table top standard are we talking about?

Scott-S6 wrote:

grizgrin wrote:

Lord Manimal wrote:....It's not elitism when people call you out for "not having time" it's just B.S. It's like saying "I own the moon."

You have a busy schedule by the sound of it. You are also extremely motivated to do certain things in your life. And yet it is so hard for you to accept that others possibly are motivated to play, but could care less about painting? You can sit there and call BS. Congratulations, you win 7 internets.

He's not - he's pointing out that the excuse-makers are exactly that.

There are two types of players that don't paint:

a) the ones that have absolutely no interest in doing so - they are only interested in playing.
b) the ones that can't be bothered.

A lot of the people that claim to be group a) are actually group b) but aren't admitting it.

There are two types of players that don't paint:

a) the ones that have absolutely no interest in doing so - they are only interested in playing.
b) the ones that can't be bothered.

A lot of the people that claim to be group a) are actually group b) but aren't admitting it.

For example, Wolfstan objects to using pogs instead of models (so clearly finds the asthetics of the model to be part of the game) but doesn't paint. Which group is he in? On that subject, would he care to answer the question that I posed him?

I cannot and willnot speak for Wolfstan, but really what's the difference between youre type A's and B's? Maybe this is a "common language barrier" problem (probably, because it certainly sounds semantic to me), but "absolutely no interest" sounds precisely the same as "can't be bothered" to me. I was raised "if you slept last night, then you had time to take care of XYZ.", so to me having the time to do ANYTHING at all is all a matter of whether you have motivation to do it or not. Simple. Either people have the motivation to paint to level whatever because it means that much to them, or they do not have the motivation to paint to level whatever (or at all) because it means that little to them. What's the difference in your A and B? If you have absolutely no interest, then you cannot be bothered. They sound the same.

Lord Manimal wrote:I dunno. I just figure that if you just wanted to play a tactical game without fancy armies or peices then you should be playing board games like Tide of Iron, Battlelore, Memoir 44, Battlecry; the list goes on and on. That is the section of the gaming universe reserved for players that just like the "tactical" aspect. As was mentioned earlier, there are far better rulesets out there for sci-fi battles that can be done with pen and paper or cardboard chips. You didn't get into this hobby because of the glowing, error free and highly playtested ruleset - at least be honest with yourselves on this point. You got into it because of the cool models, and the well painted impressive armies on the game tables that were painstaking painted by the players of this HOBBY. Not game. HOBBY.

You want a game, go pick up a copy of Monopoly, and have good ole fashioned family fun with your plain plastic bits; no one at the Monopoly tournament will expect them to be painted and you can focus on the game itself rather than be distracted by people griping about your untrimmed houses. I'm really surprised this argument is still going on. There are games, and there are hobbys. It's pretty clear which side of the fence the current rendition of 40K is in.

You make a ton of assumptions that (I would guess) are defined so narrowly by your own experiences. You "just figure" that people have had access to additional games (which admittedly are fairly common but I will bet there are many here who have never seen them in the "flesh"), have had what they deem to be appropriate time to branch out to other games, or are interested in the game as anything other than a social outlet (IE: they just do it because their buddies do it), or any other of a million reasons that people get into this hobby. Your "figure"ing assumes quite a bit of prior knowledge about the game, AND it's entire industry, AND the whole reason the individual is looking at the game in the first place. And yes, to some of us it is a game. GW can call it a hobby or a Little Red COrvette if it wants to, but in this multifaceted offering that GW has presented us with, some of us only partake of the portions we find of merit, of interest; basically "worth it" to us as individuals.

Just because you are extremely motivated in all these things, dont expect the rest of the world to share that same binary approach to life. Not trying to be a jerk, but just warning you that you will be very disappointed because the rest of the world doesnt necessarily work that way. Not everyone takes an "all or nothing" approach to their past times.

You are right. There are games, and there are hobbys. And some of us dont define our perceptions and participation in such things merely by what we are told.

Heck, even in your muscle car project, you find people who are only interested in certain aspects. Do you not have people who only paint the cars? Do you not have people who only work on engines? Do some of these people really not care about other aspects because their lives are full "enough" (by the only definition that matters; their own) with what they have chosen to pursue?

You don't want to play against person X for whatever reason fine, you play person Y

As Person Z you can't play persone X for some reason so you play person Y.

Congrats to person Y playing everyone,

I say if my unpainted army offends you so damn much, then why don't you paint them for me and spare yourself the unbearable pain of seeing them? This would be a free service as well, since you're doing this to benefit yourself more than me (and obviously I can't afford to commission someone to paint it or else I'd have it done already, yeah?).

I just never understood the "YOU'RE RUINING THE CINEMATIC EXPERIENCE FOR ME!!!1" argument all that much. If that were true then I don't know how you can stand to make it through a game without live fire coming out of the barrels of all your models guns, sound effects, or an epic orchestral soundtrack playing in the background constantly. If you want to lose yourself and literally feel like you're there, then plastic models seem like a horrible way to go about doing it, it sounds to me like you'd be more interested in PC or console gaming with first-person shooters. Or LARPing.

As long as you cut the bits off the sprue, and put them together (magnets, glue, blu tak, spit), Id play your unpainted army.

But... I recommend painting, its fun!

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

I'm willing to let it slide in some cases, like if it's their first game or they've got a really hectic job situation(one of the guys who I used to game with was a police officer, alongside of being in the National Guard...suffice to say, he didn't have much time to paint), or if they've just started up a brand new army.

But there comes a point where it just frustrates me to no end that they haven't even tried.

Can you address this issue so i can atleast understand your view on it.

a) some people cant visualize how the army plays by simply reading the codex . they have to physically play it.

b) most people dont allow proxy for entire armies , thus A: they have to purchase the army for the sake of even trying it.

c) if they dont even know whether they'll like the army or not , to hastily paint the army just to satisfy you , and at the end of the day the current army
is totally different than what they envisioned , then what?

d) they just totally ruined the resale value of their army to satisfy your preference.

Again , i must repeat , both side have preference and are entitled to it. But when you come down to this ultimate reality, there is more at stake then what you think.

Losing $400 per army vs make your picky opponent happy .

Sorry?
Did you not even read the post you're quoting?
If it's a first game for someone who's just getting in, someone with a ridiculously busy work schedule that CANNOT help it, or they're starting a brand new army--
I'm fine with it and let it slide.
I have no problems with someone doing a proxy Wood Elf army using their Chaos Warriors, because they want to try it out before they buy it. So long as they have the same amount of miniatures as the army they want to try out.

If they continue showing up with that proxy army, and make no effort to get the models for it, then I have a problem.

Are you starting to understand my stance?

So long as you make SOME FORM OF EFFORT along the way, I am okay with you.
If you just continue with the "I don't have the time/money/effort" stance, I have a problem.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Warhammer 40k is NOT a team sport. Its an individual competition.

Painting is an individual activity, not a competition. Playing is not an individual activity, you do it with someone else. If you can increase your opponent's enjoyment of your time together, isn't that a good thing?

LunaHound wrote:
Why are you entitled to enforce this effort you spent onto someone else? Is your existence so great that in order to confirm this self effort you must see it been reflected into your opponent's army?

Wow, that's misunderstood. If my opponent has a painted army, I'm going to have a much more enjoyable time gaming with them than if it isn't. I want to enjoy my time gaming. Therefore, I hope that my opponent's will paint their armies. I'm not going to refuse to play against someone who hasn't done so, but if they're part of my social group, I will (as will other's in our club) certainly mock the unpainted army. Peer pressure can be a good thing. And, if I am looking for a pickup game, I'll always choose to play someone who made some effort to paint their army over someone who did not.

See, if I want to play a strategy game, I can always play chess. Miniature games are more than that. No one gives a rats ass if you're the best 40k player in the world. It's a dice game, and there's too much luck involved to really make this distinction. On the other hand, a chess Grandmaster will get respect worldwide, even from many non chess players. So, "testing your skill" at 40k is, in the greater scope of things, really a pretty silly thing to do.

No, I play 40k because it's immersive. My army is a reflection of me. I choose the conversions. I choose the colours. I choose the composition. I base it on thousands of pages of backstory. It's more than just a handful of models sloppily glued together and thrown on the table. And, while I recognize that people do just enjoy playing, when I face an unpainted army, I expect to play a game against someone who cares for nothing but winning. When I play against a painted army, even one that isn't stunning, I know that my opponent is also looking for the immersion. They're making the effort to have their pieces exist in a miniature world and fit in.

I dunno, it's hard to explain, I'm probably not doing a great job of it.

wittzo wrote:
This game is sort of the same way, we want to imagine there are two armies in a war torn future fighting for their lives and then someone brings in a Lego truck or a squad of gray albinos to mix in with their allie's 'Eavy Metal painted army and it throws it off and it's just a game again..we've all done it so we can try something out without wasting the time and money buying and painting a unit that will suck.
...
What we have to do is motivate each other to paint and build, not run off newer players or people that think they're unskilled at it.

Wittzo gets it...


I took a ride out to the Chicago bunker tonight, and found a pick-up game, where my Tzeentch daemons faced off against Miggidy Mack's Grey Knights. Both armies were fully painted, and we had a bunch of people end up watching the game as a result. It's just more fun that way, what more can I say?

Sidstyler wrote:I say if my unpainted army offends you so damn much, then why don't you paint them for me ... This would be a free service as well

Or, I can choose not to associate with you. It works fine this way between myself and PETA. Maybe there's some good folks at PETA, but I'll never know because I'm not interested in their requirements for a middle ground and vice versa.





Fair disclosure: PETA bugs me. I think its because vegans and beer don't always mix

Kanluwen wrote:
Sorry?
Did you not even read the post you're quoting?
If it's a first game for someone who's just getting in, someone with a ridiculously busy work schedule that CANNOT help it, or they're starting a brand new army--
I'm fine with it and let it slide.
I have no problems with someone doing a proxy Wood Elf army using their Chaos Warriors, because they want to try it out before they buy it. So long as they have the same amount of miniatures as the army they want to try out.

If they continue showing up with that proxy army, and make no effort to get the models for it, then I have a problem.

Are you starting to understand my stance?

So long as you make SOME FORM OF EFFORT along the way, I am okay with you.
If you just continue with the "I don't have the time/money/effort" stance, I have a problem.

*giggle unfortunately without the uniformed consensus everyone can agree to , not everyone will be allowed to proxy.
Unless that person only plays with you , if they dont have a choice to every time , they'll STILL end up having to paint in a haste just to be able to game.

Remember one thing , i'll drill it into your head over and over again if i must. Just because YOU will allow something , doesnt mean others will.
Do not use yourself as the rule of thumb everyone can relate to. hence what i said up there? still stands.

After all , 60% of the people voted i cannot proxy Sister of battle as Marines even if they have same war gear and matches WYSIWYG perfectly.

Kanluwen wrote:Any hobby has a natural set of "rules" that come with it.

Some may, but not all.

Kanluwen wrote:You don't expect someone who plays paintball regularly to not do the research and get a decent gun

False example.

Someone could play paintball because they love running around pretending to shoot their friends and other people. Hell they might just do it for the exercise, and don't give two gaks about having a decent gun.

Kanluwen wrote:or someone whose hobby is working on cars to not do any form of research.

False example.

Someone working on a car needs that car to work, therefore would have to ensure they have the right parts lest they break something. And even that won't be true 100% of the time. Some people might just like taking things apart and putting them back together with no need to have top spec'ed components or even have the damned thing work.

Redbeard wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
Warhammer 40k is NOT a team sport. Its an individual competition.

Painting is an individual activity, not a competition. Playing is not an individual activity, you do it with someone else. If you can increase your opponent's enjoyment of your time together, isn't that a good thing?

LunaHound wrote:
Why are you entitled to enforce this effort you spent onto someone else? Is your existence so great that in order to confirm this self effort you must see it been reflected into your opponent's army?

Wow, that's misunderstood. If my opponent has a painted army, I'm going to have a much more enjoyable time gaming with them than if it isn't. I want to enjoy my time gaming. Therefore, I hope that my opponent's will paint their armies. I'm not going to refuse to play against someone who hasn't done so, but if they're part of my social group, I will (as will other's in our club) certainly mock the unpainted army. Peer pressure can be a good thing. And, if I am looking for a pickup game, I'll always choose to play someone who made some effort to paint their army over someone who did not.

See, if I want to play a strategy game, I can always play chess. Miniature games are more than that. No one gives a rats ass if you're the best 40k player in the world. It's a dice game, and there's too much luck involved to really make this distinction. On the other hand, a chess Grandmaster will get respect worldwide, even from many non chess players. So, "testing your skill" at 40k is, in the greater scope of things, really a pretty silly thing to do.

No, I play 40k because it's immersive. My army is a reflection of me. I choose the conversions. I choose the colours. I choose the composition. I base it on thousands of pages of backstory. It's more than just a handful of models sloppily glued together and thrown on the table. And, while I recognize that people do just enjoy playing, when I face an unpainted army, I expect to play a game against someone who cares for nothing but winning. When I play against a painted army, even one that isn't stunning, I know that my opponent is also looking for the immersion. They're making the effort to have their pieces exist in a miniature world and fit in.

I dunno, it's hard to explain, I'm probably not doing a great job of it.

wittzo wrote:
This game is sort of the same way, we want to imagine there are two armies in a war torn future fighting for their lives and then someone brings in a Lego truck or a squad of gray albinos to mix in with their allie's 'Eavy Metal painted army and it throws it off and it's just a game again..we've all done it so we can try something out without wasting the time and money buying and painting a unit that will suck.
...
What we have to do is motivate each other to paint and build, not run off newer players or people that think they're unskilled at it.

Wittzo gets it...


I took a ride out to the Chicago bunker tonight, and found a pick-up game, where my Tzeentch daemons faced off against Miggidy Mack's Grey Knights. Both armies were fully painted, and we had a bunch of people end up watching the game as a result. It's just more fun that way, what more can I say?

Great post, agreed completely. As a side note, your Daemons look fantastic (As does your entire gallery). I would love to line up against any of those armies!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Any hobby has a natural set of "rules" that come with it.

Some may, but not all.

Kanluwen wrote:You don't expect someone who plays paintball regularly to not do the research and get a decent gun

False example.

Someone could play paintball because they love running around pretending to shoot their friends and other people. Hell they might just do it for the exercise, and don't give two gaks about having a decent gun.

Kanluwen wrote:or someone whose hobby is working on cars to not do any form of research.

False example.

Someone working on a car needs that car to work, therefore would have to ensure they have the right parts lest they break something. And even that won't be true 100% of the time. Some people might just like taking things apart and putting them back together with no need to have top spec'ed components or even have the damned thing work.

They were pretty bad examples, but I wasn't able to think of any hobbies off the top of my head right there.

Maybe LARP would be a better example, but I'm not big with LARP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Sorry?
Did you not even read the post you're quoting?
If it's a first game for someone who's just getting in, someone with a ridiculously busy work schedule that CANNOT help it, or they're starting a brand new army--
I'm fine with it and let it slide.
I have no problems with someone doing a proxy Wood Elf army using their Chaos Warriors, because they want to try it out before they buy it. So long as they have the same amount of miniatures as the army they want to try out.

If they continue showing up with that proxy army, and make no effort to get the models for it, then I have a problem.

Are you starting to understand my stance?

So long as you make SOME FORM OF EFFORT along the way, I am okay with you.
If you just continue with the "I don't have the time/money/effort" stance, I have a problem.

*giggle unfortunately without the uniformed consensus everyone can agree to , not everyone will be allowed to proxy.
Unless that person only plays with you , if they dont have a choice to every time , they'll STILL end up having to paint in a haste just to be able to game.

Remember one thing , i'll drill it into your head over and over again if i must. Just because YOU will allow something , doesnt mean others will.
Do not use yourself as the rule of thumb everyone can relate to. hence what i said up there? still stands.

After all , 60% of the people voted i cannot proxy Sister of battle as Marines even if they have same war gear and matches WYSIWYG perfectly.

Not everyone will be allowed to proxy because some people make a habit of doing it, especially TFG.
MOST people will be lenient in a friendly environment if you're trying to fiddle around with a potential new army. Everyone's done it at some point. Then there's also the opposite of TFG, the guy with multiple painted armies, who's most likely willing to let you use them every so often for big games or trying a full army out.

And yes, just because I allow something doesn't mean others will. I'm well aware of that. I don't think the world revolves around me or any slights from that unpainted gamer mafia out there.

But then, you can also realize that not everyone will be willing to put up with someone who repeatedly comes in with a new army every week, no attempt to paint their stuff, always trying to unload an army, etc.

And yes. People wouldn't let you proxy Sisters of Battle as Marines, what a tragedy. Probably because Sisters of Battle have an established army list, established models, and established background rather than Gurl Mareenz Hurr. It's just like I won't let someone proxy an Imperial Guard army as Tyranids, or a Tau army as Imperial Guard...

Except if they've gone far, far out of their way converting it heavily to make it obvious that they're NOT what they started life as.

Kanluwen wrote:
And yes. People wouldn't let you proxy Sisters of Battle as Marines, what a tragedy.

Watch your tone of voice sir , not only have you started this thread accusing me of making this thread for attention ,
you have taken a basic trade of opinion onto a personal lvl.

Granted you seem to be pretty heated into the discussion , just dont get carried away.