Hobby Elitism in Warhammer.

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**gorgon**

Saldiven wrote:Y'know, I'm happy for all the people that feel rewarded by spending as much time as they do in modeling and painting.

Here is what I do in the time that the painters are painting:

Work 2 jobs; loan officer during the day and ballroom dance teacher 2-3 nights per week.

Take my ballroom competition training and practice with my partner.

Go out social dancing with friends.

Go to the gym 6-8 hours per week on average.

Practice with my club volleyball team; go to tournaments every month or so.

Have a social life by having at least one date-like-thing per week.

My life is very full. During the week, I leave my apartment by 7:30 in the morning and don't usually get back until 8:30 to 9:00, not until 11:00 if I teach that night. I usually have 3-4 hours on Saturday afternoon to spend with my gamer friends, and I'd rather spend that playing something that sitting around painting.

So, which of the above things that I do (that I actually enjoy) should I give up so that I can paint (which I hate) so that I can keep the "paint your minis" types happy?

Okay, let me play devil's advocate here.

All the things I've highlighted in bold are hobbies/activities you choose to pursue, right? They're not commitments like a family or job. So those are your leisure time activities...and you're simply prioritizing those leisure time activities over your gaming hobby. That's fine...that makes you a well-rounded person.

But my question is whether someone wanting to enjoy their hobby with others that have similar priorities really a bad guy? If your club volleyball team goes to tournaments, I assume it's at least a semi-competitive thing. Imagine if there was someone on your team that never practiced, never attempted to get better on their own, and really just didn't care to participate much. Wouldn't that be a little annoying to those of you more engaged in the team?

That wouldn't give you the right to act like an a$$hole toward them. No one has a right to behave like an a$$hole to another person. But wouldn't you maybe say something polite and tactful if it was hindering the fun of those more engaged in the team? And does that really fit the definition of a$$hole behavior?

I'm not saying that's what you're saying...I'm just having a lot of trouble following the logic trains of a lot of people here. I don't know how you can say live and let live and then call the other person a jerk for behaving similarly.

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Frazzled wrote:Thats just fine. He will play with people that don't care. Those that do care with play only with other like minded individuals. It balances out as it should. Frazzled will still be cranky. All is right in the world.

Yeah, and yet there seem to be individuals on either side of this discussion saying that this is somehow wrong. Maybe I'm getting old, cranky and dull, but I can't follow their logic to save my life.

**two_heads_talking**

Leotilt wrote:Wow a lot of childish mindsets in this thread.

You guys know that it is ok for other people to spend there money how they want and play a game how they want to play. If someone does not want to paint but enjoys playing warhams then that is cool, no really it is, he is ok to do that without being wierd just because he does not view the world through the same eyes that you do.

by that same logic, the person who only wants to play someone with a painted army is also ok.. he's just being weird too..

so basically you agree with the OP but you agree to be absolutely opposite right?

**combatmedic**

You know what. I blame Luna for starting this thread and making everyone yell at each other.

YOUR RUINING THIS FAMILY LUNA.

**two_heads_talking**

gorgon wrote:
Saldiven wrote:Y'know, I'm happy for all the people that feel rewarded by spending as much time as they do in modeling and painting.

Here is what I do in the time that the painters are painting:

Work 2 jobs; loan officer during the day and ballroom dance teacher 2-3 nights per week.

Take my ballroom competition training and practice with my partner.

Go out social dancing with friends.

Go to the gym 6-8 hours per week on average.

Practice with my club volleyball team; go to tournaments every month or so.

Have a social life by having at least one date-like-thing per week.

My life is very full. During the week, I leave my apartment by 7:30 in the morning and don't usually get back until 8:30 to 9:00, not until 11:00 if I teach that night. I usually have 3-4 hours on Saturday afternoon to spend with my gamer friends, and I'd rather spend that playing something that sitting around painting.

So, which of the above things that I do (that I actually enjoy) should I give up so that I can paint (which I hate) so that I can keep the "paint your minis" types happy?

Okay, let me play devil's advocate here.

All the things I've highlighted in bold are hobbies/activities you choose to pursue, right? They're not commitments like a family or job. So those are your leisure time activities...and you're simply prioritizing those leisure time activities over your gaming hobby. That's fine...that makes you a well-rounded person.

But my question is whether someone wanting to enjoy their hobby with others that have similar priorities really a bad guy? If your club volleyball team goes to tournaments, I assume it's at least a semi-competitive thing. Imagine if there was someone on your team that never practiced, never attempted to get better on their own, and really just didn't care to participate much. Wouldn't that be a little annoying to those of you more engaged in the team?

That wouldn't give you the right to act like an a$$hole toward them. No one has a right to behave like an a$$hole to another person. But wouldn't you maybe say something polite and tactful if it was hindering the fun of those more engaged in the team? And does that really fit the definition of a$$hole behavior?

I'm not saying that's what you're saying...I'm just having a lot of trouble following the logic trains of a lot of people here. I don't know how you can say live and let live and then call the other person a jerk for behaving similarly.

I'd also suggest that if you (saldiven) were teaching a dance class and one or two of your students or even friends decided to buck the system, in otherwords not wear the proper dance attire you'd not be too excited about that either. You've taken much time to polish your profession/hobby, while granted they are paying you to instruct them, I'm sure if you had events that you'd expect them to comply with the guidelines and rules set up for such events.. If they refuse to do so, because they feel uncomfortable, you'd be very dissapointed..

**Frazzled**

But if they are not going to an event, that requires such it wouldn't matter now would it?

**Dashofpepper**

Asmodai wrote:

Seriously though, it's like you have a friend who enjoys shooting bottles off of fence posts. He's buying $75 bottle of champagne for the purpose. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that he can get $3 bottles that suit the purpose just as well.

Maybe he really enjoys seeing the fizz when the champagne bottles explode and will keep shooting them. There's no point arguing with him about it, but there's also nothing wrong with pointing out that alternatives exist.

(Another alternative is VASSAL, you get the full 40K rules, can field whatever army you want, spend no money and no one will complain about your painting.)

You know what another alternative is? Letting your friend shoot $75 bottles of champagne because its his money to spend as he wishes. There's no need for you to look down on him for his choices, or tell him that you don't approve of how he spent his money.

The same applies in 40k.

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gorgon wrote:

But my question is whether someone wanting to enjoy their hobby with others that have similar priorities really a bad guy? If your club volleyball team goes to tournaments, I assume it's at least a semi-competitive thing. Imagine if there was someone on your team that never practiced, never attempted to get better on their own, and really just didn't care to participate much. Wouldn't that be a little annoying to those of you more engaged in the team?

You use the worst analogies. Volleyball is a team sport. If your TEAMMATE isn't practicing, you have a right to get frustrated or boot them off the team to find a TEAM PLAYER.

Warhammer 40k is NOT a team sport. Its an individual competition. I get to take it at the pace *I* want, and no one has any right to tell me differently. Neither you nor your elitist friends have the right to tell me that I need to find another hobby because I don't prioritize the same that you do with a hobby.

No...you don't necessarily spend more time in 40k than I do. You just choose to focus on a different aspect than I do, and THEN have the balls to tell me that your aspect is better than mine. How about we flip it around so you can taste your own medicine?

Since you like painting so much, maybe you should find a different hobby that doesn't have a wargaming aspect to it? Perhaps canvas painting? Painting sunsets? Finger painting? Something that doesn't involve a competitive activity.

**Kanluwen**

Dashofpepper wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:dashofpepper - you have a point and it's clear that you are 95%game vs 5%modelling in this hobby. If your opponent is 5%game vs 95%modelling then he probably felt the exact same way when he saw your army on the table.

If you want to play outside of a small group of like-minded friends then you need a decently presented army, a variety of lists of various power-levels and the ability to use them. With that you can have a good game with anyone.

My army is painted. Some of it even got done on a commission (Hulksmash here on Dakkdakka) because I was curious to see what it would look like. My point is that I don't care if someone's army is painted or not. I care about spending 2-6 hours of my time having fun. FUN. Not goggling over someone's army, they can take pictures and post them online.

When I play a game against someone and I beat them down because they're not very good, you know what I do? I have an after action review (AAR) with them, and talk about what tactical changes, or army list changes might have helped, what I noticed, and how I think they could improve to fare better next time.

I do *NOT* frown down the end of my nose at their tactical inferiority and suggest that they go play something requiring less brainpower, or demand that they learn how to play before playing me against to prevent me from being bored during a game.

For anyone at all to judge ANYONE else's participation in the hobby is simply unacceptable. Just like a freakin' MMO. We all pay for it, and we can play it any damn way that we want to. Lets say that you and I both spend $25 buying a box of miniatures. We both assembled them and are playing the same game with them. For you to think how you treated your $25 is better than how I treated mine...is none of your business. If a tournament has a painting score built into it (RTT) then you're welcome to reflect your displeasure with someone's painting scheme on paper, via a score, for the judge.

Short of that, if someone is criticizing someone for lack of paint, or not wanting to play with them, or segregating them out of their group because they think they're better...hammer to the nuts for you.

I just want to point out this bit.

Nobody's saying that you HAVE to bring painted miniatures. Nobody's saying to beat up people with unpainted stuff. They're saying that, if after YEARS of playing you haven't taken the effort to paint, but take the effort to play--it's annoying. There's no real excuse, given the easy access to painting services, painting tutorials, or hell some gaming groups even run painting days in place of game days on some weekends.

And sorry, but the MMO comparison doesn't stand up. It's not a 1v1 thing like Warhammer can be. It's a *group* activity. You won't take someone who has made no effort to learn the fights, get consumables, etc to a raid. You won't take some git who does nothing but type out obnoxious statements in raid chat, constantly, while barely contributing.
So to put it simply, in that case it's you screwing over 24 or 9 other people who've got their junk together to enjoy the game, just because you want to be difficult.

**Howard A Treesong**

Seems to me the hobby consists of both playing and painting. A painted miniature is a thing of beauty, you don't need to play with it to appreciate the aesthetic value. Most models spend most of their lives sitting around not being played with anyway. A painted miniature isn't diminished by not being played with, many miniatures aren't for playing with, and some really nice conversions will never be used either nor would probably any GD entry.

But I don't think it works the other way around. While the table-top use of a miniature has no impact upon the painting side of the hobby, the playing of a game is affected by the whether an army is painted. A game isn't just about rolling dice, there's the idea of the spectacle. A good player shouldn't mind whether he wins or loses, but in enjoying the game - seeing the armies come to life on the table. Unpainted miniatures don't come to life. They all look the same, a collection of dull grey plastics and metal. The quality of the game suffers without painting just like it does if you don't bother to make nice scenery but rely on boxes of tissues and sauce bottles to make up the terrain. If that's your approach you may as well do away with the miniatures all together.

And then there's the practical side of things. I'd like to know exactly what chapter those plastic space marines are, and be easily able to identify your Death Company among your other Blood Angels units.

**gorgon**

Dashofpepper wrote:You use the worst analogies. Volleyball is a team sport. If your TEAMMATE isn't practicing, you have a right to get frustrated or boot them off the team to find a TEAM PLAYER.

Warhammer 40k is NOT a team sport. Its an individual competition. I get to take it at the pace *I* want, and no one has any right to tell me differently. Neither you nor your elitist friends have the right to tell me that I need to find another hobby because I don't prioritize the same that you do with a hobby.

No...you don't necessarily spend more time in 40k than I do. You just choose to focus on a different aspect than I do, and THEN have the balls to tell me that your aspect is better than mine. How about we flip it around so you can taste your own medicine?

Since you like painting so much, maybe you should find a different hobby that doesn't have a wargaming aspect to it? Perhaps canvas painting? Painting sunsets? Finger painting? Something that doesn't involve a competitive activity.

Wow, that was weird.

First, that post wasn't aimed at you, so I'm not sure why you have your back up about it.

Second, are you sure you quoted the right person? I've made it pretty clear where I stand (which I think is actually fairly middle ground), and I challenge you to find one instance in which I've told anyone to get another hobby. I simply think it's reasonable -- in fact, it's probably human nature -- for people to prefer interacting with others who want the same level of engagement with a given hobby/activity. That goes for people who like playing more than painting and vice versa. That's a completely different statement than "get a new hobby," so again...are you talking to me?

Miniatures wargaming requires social interaction between two people. For that interaction to be enjoyable for both parties, everyone usually has work together and be on the same page in their expectations. It isn't different than a team sport in that respect. If wargaming was a true sport, say tennis -- overseen and rules enforced by an active referee, you might have a point. But it isn't.

I also don't know what your problem is with being civil. For some bizarre reason, you're trying to make this about me, and frankly you don't know anything about me. I've laid out my views more than once, but you've chosen to ignore what I've said and instead spew stuff that probably deserves a mod warning. But hey, have fun with your nerd rage over a topic this inane. LOL.

**Commisar00**

I don't really care about wether my opponent has a painted army or not (for the record I have a fully painted space marine army, Guard army, and a Protectorate of Menoth army) My one problem I see is when I there are lots of proxies or my opponents units have no way of being told apart and get mixed up, such as when I drop a template on a unit and even he can't tell which squad is which. I'm not saying you have to paint but it can help differentiate things.

**Brother SRM**

I used to play a lot more often in highschool, since my friends and I all had a lot more free time. However, it bugged me when I would put heaps of time and effort into an army, and some of my friends would have an unpainted army week after week, showing no progress.

I won't refuse anyone a game if their army is unpainted, but it does irk me when their army never has any paint on it, week after week. I don't care if people detail the bases on their miniatures or not though. It looks nice, but I don't find it mandatory.

So yeah, I'm a bit of an elitist, but I know there are far worse people around.

**Crazy_Carnifex**

This thread sounds like question period.

**LunaHound**

Super , this thread have already yielded the results i was hoping to see. There are clearly 3 types of players here:

Type 1) Gamers:

Most of my friends havent painted their armies and its been 5 years.. To me thats fine, it doesnt hinder my enjoyment of the game because its all about the actual game
Now, I do understand why some dont like playing against unpainted armies. It gives off the vibe that the person is a power gamer and doesnt really care about their models.. they just want to beat you

Type 2) Gaming Hobbiests:

The place I play at accepts peoples armies no matter what state of painting they are in. Most have really basic paint jobs, others are only primed, one guy has had his army for a year and hasn't even primed it.
We dont care in terms of the paint jobs because we are all there to play the game, not get into a story telling experience. Only one guy there is really into LARPing and D&D, and while his stuff is painted, he doesnt go off on people whos stuff is the bare plastic. Sure we make fun of people who dont have their stuff painted, but in a playful way, not a "You dont get your stuff painted you dont play" tone.

Type 3) Painting Elitists :

- Last time I checked painting 40k armies is part of official rules for gaming... you can choose not to its your perrogative as is others to decline to play with you... no need to rant or btch about it just learn to embrace the consequences of your choices.

K , i also see the argument comming from a weird issue. Painters not willing to acknowledge gaming is as essential to others as painting is to themselves.

Also , i have many people claiming what im saying is double standard . Not really , as we dont laugh about how nerdy someone is for spending 10 hour on a model ,
we would expect same basic lvl of respect not to do the same on lack of paint effort. It is not double standard when one out come = you dont get to play because the person complains about lack of painted minis.
You see the problem now?

**combatmedic**

This is going to be one of those questions that will not have a right answer from one person to the next.

One person will say that its part of the game, and if you cant/wont take the time to paint, you shouldn't play because it ruins their experience.

The other person will say they dont have the time/don't want to paint their said armies because thats not why they play, they do it for the fun of the game, and no one should tell them how to handle their army.

Its the wonders of free thought, and there will never be an answer to make everyone happy.

**Wolfstan**

I find it fascinating that there is a mind set that feels that there is something wrong in playing with unpainted figures. People have generally given the impression that the person turning up with an unpainted army is lazy or making excuses. That you should make the effert, other wise move along to a game that is more suitable for your lazy can't be bothered arse.

People have said that they tend to avoid gamers who turn up with unpainted models as it offends their ideas of what the hobby entails. That is sad. Yes it's your choice as people have posted, but it's still sad that you think it, even if you don't say it out loud.

There have been some damn good replies defending unpainted models on the post, many of them much better then I could articulate, but in the end they are probably wasted as I can't see the painted mindset changing their minds seeing how shallow they are. You've managed to implement a class system within a hobby, well done.

Me? I've seen guys turn up with models that are just the legs of walkers or half assembled and the only reason that this bothers me is that it is open to cheating.

**Kanluwen**

Wolfstan wrote:I find it fascinating that there is a mind set that feels that there is something wrong in playing with unpainted figures. People have generally given the impression that the person turning up with an unpainted army is lazy or making excuses. That you should make the effert, other wise move along to a game that is more suitable for your lazy can't be bothered arse.

People have said that they tend to avoid gamers who turn up with unpainted models as it offends their ideas of what the hobby entails. That is sad. Yes it's your choice as people have posted, but it's still sad that you think it, even if you don't say it out loud.

There have been some damn good replies defending unpainted models on the post, many of them much better then I could articulate, but in the end they are probably wasted as I can't see the painted mindset changing their minds seeing how shallow they are. You've managed to implement a class system within a hobby, well done.

Me? I've seen guys turn up with models that are just the legs of walkers or half assembled and the only reason that this bothers me is that it is open to cheating.

Sorry?
The vast majority of the posts defending unpainted models are:
I don't have time to do it with my busy social life.
I don't want to do it because I want the option of reselling an army later.
I just want to game, screw the hobby aspect.

How is that any different than the powergamer elitists who refuse matches against compositions they know they can't beat? Or refuse to game because the mission won't favor them, or who will fudge up the rules in their favor?

They're all EXCUSES.
You can not paint your models for all I care.
But once you've had the same army, for over a year, and you haven't even ATTEMPTED to begin painting?
You need to reexamine your priorities for doing a miniatures game, rather than sitting at home on your 360 or PC.

**LunaHound**

Again , for the people that keep saying its double standard , please keep in mind this:

Its true the mind set is on the opposite of the line .

Its true they dont have to agree , its their choice and preference.

HOWEVER , when it comes down to one side not willing to accept a game due to painting standards , this is where the real problem starts.

Yes / No

**Kanluwen**

LunaHound wrote:
Again , for the people that keep saying its double standard , please keep in mind this:

Its true the mind set is on the opposite of the line .

Its true they dont have to agree , its their choice and preference.

HOWEVER , when it comes down to one side not willing to accept a game due to painting standards , this is where the real problem starts.

Yes / No

And if you're not going to make the effort to paint after someone has neglected to play you, after god knows how long you've had to paint--That's your problem, not theirs.

**LunaHound**

Kanluwen wrote:
And if you're not going to make the effort to paint after someone has neglected to play you, after god knows how long you've had to paint--That's your problem, not theirs.

In other words , you are not willing to respect people's choice of not painting , to the extreme point of not wanting to play against them .

Thats pretty harsh imo. This would be the gaming's equivalent of not wanting to play against proxy / converted / base size difference / wysiwyg .

**Kanluwen**

LunaHound wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
And if you're not going to make the effort to paint after someone has neglected to play you, after god knows how long you've had to paint--That's your problem, not theirs.

In other words , you are not willing to respect people's choice of not painting , to the extreme point of not wanting to play against them .

Thats pretty harsh imo.

I'm not willing to respect a person's lack of effort in a hobby.
I put my time into it, I do what I can to make it enjoyable for both parties.

Can I not expect the same from someone else, or do I have to respect that they're choosing to not painting because of some random excuses?

**LunaHound**

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not willing to respect a person's lack of effort in a hobby.
I put my time into it, I do what I can to make it enjoyable for both parties.

Can I not expect the same from someone else, or do I have to respect that they're choosing to not painting because of some random excuses?

Like i said many times already , this type falls into the unwillingness to accept warhammer is also a game to others , not a hobby.

You might also want to read i have given reasons someone might have for not wanting to paint.
and these are REAL issues not excuses . ( maybe you missed the post )

**Kanluwen**

This would be the gaming's equivalent of not wanting to play against proxy / converted / base size difference / wysiwyg .

And since you added that in since my post, I'm going to reply to it really quicklike.

If it's someone's first game, or they're testing out a new army?
I'm fine with a proxy army.
If it's someone's heavily converted, counts as Deathwing, Iron Hands Terminator Company, with everything explained before hand?
I'm fine with it.

If it's a base size difference that favors you, and seems to be a sneaky underhanded attempt to get an edge? I'm usually against that.
If you genuinely don't have the base? That's fine.

And why wouldn't you be at least ATTEMPTING WYSIWYG? I'm sure there's a few exclusions that could be made, or substitutes that are easily explainable before deployment or the game starting.
Most people are okay with that.

It's when it goes into the realm of unassembled proxy armies where things just magically keep changing that people have issues.

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LunaHound wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not willing to respect a person's lack of effort in a hobby.
I put my time into it, I do what I can to make it enjoyable for both parties.

Can I not expect the same from someone else, or do I have to respect that they're choosing to not painting because of some random excuses?

Like i said many times already , this type falls into the unwillingness to accept warhammer is also a game to others , not a hobby.

You might also want to read i have given reasons someone might have for not wanting to paint.
and these are REAL issues not excuses . ( maybe you missed the post )

Sorry, but Warhammer IS a hobby. Games are hobbies, Luna. Paintball's a hobby, console gaming is a hobby, MMOs are hobbies.

Anything you're doing for fun/enjoyment without being paid, with your own free time is a hobby.

And yeah. I read your reasons for not wanting to paint.
Getting more gaming time, wanting to sell the army later, etc.

Those are excuses, pure and simple. There are plenty of people with multiple armies, and doing Warhammer in college, while also working part time jobs to pay for it and their courses. There are plenty of people who work full-time with families that can find the time to paint AND game.

**LunaHound**

Kanluwen wrote:
This would be the gaming's equivalent of not wanting to play against proxy / converted / base size difference / wysiwyg .

And since you added that in since my post, I'm going to reply to it really quicklike.

If it's someone's first game, or they're testing out a new army?
I'm fine with a proxy army.
If it's someone's heavily converted, counts as Deathwing, Iron Hands Terminator Company, with everything explained before hand?
I'm fine with it.

If it's a base size difference that favors you, and seems to be a sneaky underhanded attempt to get an edge? I'm usually against that.
If you genuinely don't have the base? That's fine.

And why wouldn't you be at least ATTEMPTING WYSIWYG? I'm sure there's a few exclusions that could be made, or substitutes that are easily explainable before deployment or the game starting.
Most people are okay with that.

It's when it goes into the realm of unassembled proxy armies where things just magically keep changing that people have issues.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not willing to respect a person's lack of effort in a hobby.
I put my time into it, I do what I can to make it enjoyable for both parties.

Can I not expect the same from someone else, or do I have to respect that they're choosing to not painting because of some random excuses?

Like i said many times already , this type falls into the unwillingness to accept warhammer is also a game to others , not a hobby.

You might also want to read i have given reasons someone might have for not wanting to paint.
and these are REAL issues not excuses . ( maybe you missed the post )

Sorry, but Warhammer IS a hobby. Games are hobbies, Luna. Paintball's a hobby, console gaming is a hobby, MMOs are hobbies.

Anything you're doing for fun/enjoyment without being paid, with your own free time is a hobby.

And yeah. I read your reasons for not wanting to paint.
Getting more gaming time, wanting to sell the army later, etc.

Those are excuses, pure and simple. There are plenty of people with multiple armies, and doing Warhammer in college, while also working part time jobs to pay for it and their courses. There are plenty of people who work full-time with families that can find the time to paint AND game.

Again , why do you expect a gamer to care about your efforts in converting ? to the degree of changing wysiwyg .

Im not saying thats right mind set to have , however im also saying your mind set isnt nice either.

The whole purpose of what i want to come across is , i want there to be a happy medium where everyone can play without these extra preference / standards .

**Saldiven**

gorgon wrote:

Okay, let me play devil's advocate here.

All the things I've highlighted in bold are hobbies/activities you choose to pursue, right? They're not commitments like a family or job. So those are your leisure time activities...and you're simply prioritizing those leisure time activities over your gaming hobby. That's fine...that makes you a well-rounded person.

But my question is whether someone wanting to enjoy their hobby with others that have similar priorities really a bad guy? If your club volleyball team goes to tournaments, I assume it's at least a semi-competitive thing. Imagine if there was someone on your team that never practiced, never attempted to get better on their own, and really just didn't care to participate much. Wouldn't that be a little annoying to those of you more engaged in the team?

That wouldn't give you the right to act like an a$$hole toward them. No one has a right to behave like an a$$hole to another person. But wouldn't you maybe say something polite and tactful if it was hindering the fun of those more engaged in the team? And does that really fit the definition of a$$hole behavior?

I'm not saying that's what you're saying...I'm just having a lot of trouble following the logic trains of a lot of people here. I don't know how you can say live and let live and then call the other person a jerk for behaving similarly.

I actually believe that I agree with you. Yes, I do prioritize the things I do based upon things I have to do and things I want to do. The things I have to do come first, and the things I want to do are prioritized by how much I enjoy them.

There is an important difference between someone on my v-ball team not practicing and someone I play a pickup game of 40K not having a painted army. His painted army does not negatively impact my ability to play to my highest potential. Now, if he were a team-mate on a 40K team tourney, that would be different.

The entire point I was trying to make is that I'm not a bad person or bad gamer because I don't put all aspects of the 40K "hobby" above everything else I like to do in my life. The fact that I absolutely loathe painting miniatures does not somehow make a painter superior to me.

I'm a fairly good player and do well in tournaments. I've even won a few. Despite this, I don't look down upon, make fun of, or otherwise deride players who I beat. Honestly, when I really beat someone bad, I feel bad about it, because I want them to have a good time, too. Yes, I have painted armies that I use for tournaments, but I hated every minute of painting them so much that I will never give someone crap for not having a painted army to play against me.

I think that people forget that the entire purpose of an activity like 40K is a chance to socialize with people and have a good time. What constitutes fun for one person isn't necessarily fun for the other guy. Live and let live. Do unto others.... All that stuff.

**LunaHound**

@Kanluwen , i also realize you and i will never agree on this. But its fine , but please look at so many type 2 players in this thread , and perhaps consider alittle in what they think?
Because it really is a shame to miss games due to lack of paint job.

**Saldiven**

Kanluwen wrote:
Nobody's saying that you HAVE to bring painted miniatures. Nobody's saying to beat up people with unpainted stuff. They're saying that, if after YEARS of playing you haven't taken the effort to paint, but take the effort to play--it's annoying. There's no real excuse, given the easy access to painting services, painting tutorials, or hell some gaming groups even run painting days in place of game days on some weekends.

Why? (To the bolded part)

So someone else chooses to not paint their minis. Why do you care? They aren't your minis, so it's no skin off your teeth.

**Kanluwen**

Saldiven wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Nobody's saying that you HAVE to bring painted miniatures. Nobody's saying to beat up people with unpainted stuff. They're saying that, if after YEARS of playing you haven't taken the effort to paint, but take the effort to play--it's annoying. There's no real excuse, given the easy access to painting services, painting tutorials, or hell some gaming groups even run painting days in place of game days on some weekends.

Why? (To the bolded part)

So someone else chooses to not paint their minis. Why do you care? They aren't your minis, so it's no skin off your teeth.

Honestly, it's just annoying to me in that I've taken the time and effort to paint my stuff--and then I have to play against someone who's taken none whatsoever to improve their own stuff.

I'm willing to let it slide in some cases, like if it's their first game or they've got a really hectic job situation(one of the guys who I used to game with was a police officer, alongside of being in the National Guard...suffice to say, he didn't have much time to paint), or if they've just started up a brand new army.

But there comes a point where it just frustrates me to no end that they haven't even tried.

**studderingdave**

wow, what a thread.

i paint, alot. mostly speed painting, but i have been doing some skill stuff to learn new things.

bottom line for me? you dont wanna paint your stuff? whatever. thats you, i have more spare time then most, im not hating on ya.

just dont get mad at me when i ding ya for painting in a tourney. i hate that, people who dont embrace the painting aspect of the game then get pissed when they get hit for no paint at an event.

**LunaHound**

Kanluwen wrote:

I'm willing to let it slide in some cases, like if it's their first game or they've got a really hectic job situation(one of the guys who I used to game with was a police officer, alongside of being in the National Guard...suffice to say, he didn't have much time to paint), or if they've just started up a brand new army.

But there comes a point where it just frustrates me to no end that they haven't even tried.

Can you address this issue so i can atleast understand your view on it.

a) some people cant visualize how the army plays by simply reading the codex . they have to physically play it.

b) most people dont allow proxy for entire armies , thus A: they have to purchase the army for the sake of even trying it.

c) if they dont even know whether they'll like the army or not , to hastily paint the army just to satisfy you , and at the end of the day the current army
is totally different than what they envisioned , then what?

d) they just totally ruined the resale value of their army to satisfy your preference.

Again , i must repeat , both side have preference and are entitled to it. But when you come down to this ultimate reality, there is more at stake then what you think.

Losing $400 per army vs make your picky opponent happy .

**Saldiven**

Kanluwen wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Nobody's saying that you HAVE to bring painted miniatures. Nobody's saying to beat up people with unpainted stuff. They're saying that, if after YEARS of playing you haven't taken the effort to paint, but take the effort to play--it's annoying. There's no real excuse, given the easy access to painting services, painting tutorials, or hell some gaming groups even run painting days in place of game days on some weekends.

Why? (To the bolded part)

So someone else chooses to not paint their minis. Why do you care? They aren't your minis, so it's no skin off your teeth.

Honestly, it's just annoying to me in that I've taken the time and effort to paint my stuff--and then I have to play against someone who's taken none whatsoever to improve their own stuff.

I'm willing to let it slide in some cases, like if it's their first game or they've got a really hectic job situation(one of the guys who I used to game with was a police officer, alongside of being in the National Guard...suffice to say, he didn't have much time to paint), or if they've just started up a brand new army.

But there comes a point where it just frustrates me to no end that they haven't even tried.

Again, why do you care. You took the time and effort to paint your minis because that is important to you, and (hopefully) you actually enjoy the process of painting and the product that results.

But that's on you. That's your army.

If I freaking hate painting (which I do) and cannot afford to pay someone to paint them for me (which I can't), why does it make a difference to you?

The presence or lack of paint on their minis neither changes their ability as a gamer nor their quality as a person/opponent.

Yes, a person definitely has the right to decide not to play someone for any reason, including the fact that they don't like to play against unpainted armies. That's fine. The point I (and I believe Luna) am trying to make is that the "painting elite" are not somehow superior to the non-painters. When someone doesn't paint their minis, it is not evidence of laziness or being a power gamer. It's just likely that they don't like painting, don't enjoy it, and don't want to do it just to satisfy some guy down at the FLGS.