Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm kinda with Luna on this, with a caveat.

It's your hobby - if you really like modelling and playing, and hate painting, you don't HAVE to paint your models. That's ABSOLUTELY FINE.

You don't have a 'responsibility' to do it - that's a load of rubbish.

However, one of the things I get from the game is the look of two fully painted armies on a battlefield. I hate playing against unpainted models. Playing someone who has an unpainted army compromised MY enjoyment of the game. So I won't play anyone with an unpainted army. Easy.

It's absolutely fine for you not to paint your models. You're free to do whatever you want. But I wouldn't want to play against you. Which, again, is absolutely fine.

Now, I think a lot of players feel the same way as me. So one thing you might have to accept is that, if you don't want to paint your army, you might have trouble finding opponents to play against...

Most of my friends havent painted their armies and its been 5 years.. To me thats fine, it doesnt hinder my enjoyment of the game because its all about the actual game

Now, I do understand why some dont like playing against unpainted armies. It gives off the vibe that the person is a power gamer and doesnt really care about their models.. they just want to beat you

One of the stores near me used to require everything be painted or they didnt let you play.. I think that is an awful rule because if you BUY something you should be able to play with it.. Eventually they got rid of that rule because people said to hell with you guys we'll buy somewhere else

I do like models to be painted.. especially in my narrative games.. and there comes a point where the "I dont have time" excuse gets old

There is a difference between "I dont have time" and "I dont want to make time"

Orkeosaurus wrote:I never paint.

I just play 40k for the extremely balanced and well-written rules. The inexpensive models are just gravy.

Sarcasm much?

Anyways, its all relative to the gaming area each of us is in, relative then to what those people care about.

Basic 3 colours and im happy to play against anyone who has painted to any standard at all..

i am a lazy painter as i prefer the following hobby bits in this order

1st sculpting/converting
2nd gaming
3rd painting

I dunno. I just figure that if you just wanted to play a tactical game without fancy armies or peices then you should be playing board games like Tide of Iron, Battlelore, Memoir 44, Battlecry; the list goes on and on. That is the section of the gaming universe reserved for players that just like the "tactical" aspect. As was mentioned earlier, there are far better rulesets out there for sci-fi battles that can be done with pen and paper or cardboard chips. You didn't get into this hobby because of the glowing, error free and highly playtested ruleset - at least be honest with yourselves on this point. You got into it because of the cool models, and the well painted impressive armies on the game tables that were painstaking painted by the players of this HOBBY. Not game. HOBBY.

You want a game, go pick up a copy of Monopoly, and have good ole fashioned family fun with your plain plastic bits; no one at the Monopoly tournament will expect them to be painted and you can focus on the game itself rather than be distracted by people griping about your untrimmed houses. I'm really surprised this argument is still going on. There are games, and there are hobbys. It's pretty clear which side of the fence the current rendition of 40K is in.

Its kind of an interesting argument. Modeling or painting? But isn't it supposed to be both for Warhammer (40k & Fantasy)?

I mean, you can model/convert all day, alone. No one else is involved unless they're appreciating your work which is after the fact and indirectly.

Playing? You're involving others directly.

I guess I'll have to agree with the "three color" argument combined with the army showing continued improvement idea(as I am currently a perpetrator of this and a slow painter).

Just my thoughts.

I have no problems with unpainted armies. AT ALL.

It is very time consuming. Even speed painting is not fast. "Yay! I got a squad done today!" Great sentiment, sure.

But when you look at a Tyranid army, and know that painting 1 figure is not even a full percent of your army, or possibly even a 1/2 percent, you have to balance time to paint with time to play, or time away from the game to stay interested.

Scott-S6 wrote:dashofpepper - you have a point and it's clear that you are 95%game vs 5%modelling in this hobby. If your opponent is 5%game vs 95%modelling then he probably felt the exact same way when he saw your army on the table.

If you want to play outside of a small group of like-minded friends then you need a decently presented army, a variety of lists of various power-levels and the ability to use them. With that you can have a good game with anyone.

My army is painted. Some of it even got done on a commission (Hulksmash here on Dakkdakka) because I was curious to see what it would look like. My point is that I don't care if someone's army is painted or not. I care about spending 2-6 hours of my time having fun. FUN. Not goggling over someone's army, they can take pictures and post them online.

When I play a game against someone and I beat them down because they're not very good, you know what I do? I have an after action review (AAR) with them, and talk about what tactical changes, or army list changes might have helped, what I noticed, and how I think they could improve to fare better next time.

I do *NOT* frown down the end of my nose at their tactical inferiority and suggest that they go play something requiring less brainpower, or demand that they learn how to play before playing me against to prevent me from being bored during a game.

For anyone at all to judge ANYONE else's participation in the hobby is simply unacceptable. Just like a freakin' MMO. We all pay for it, and we can play it any damn way that we want to. Lets say that you and I both spend $25 buying a box of miniatures. We both assembled them and are playing the same game with them. For you to think how you treated your $25 is better than how I treated mine...is none of your business. If a tournament has a painting score built into it (RTT) then you're welcome to reflect your displeasure with someone's painting scheme on paper, via a score, for the judge.

Short of that, if someone is criticizing someone for lack of paint, or not wanting to play with them, or segregating them out of their group because they think they're better...hammer to the nuts for you.

So you want to nut-hammer someone who views the hobby differently than you because you feel it's wrong to judge others based on how they view the hobby.

GENIUS.

Dashofpepper wrote:How messed up is it that I spend 6 months crafting an army list, tailoring and tweaking it, planning strategy, perfecting techniques and battleplans, and when YOU show up to the game with your well-painted fluffiness, you absolutely suck. You then waste 2.5 hours (or more) of my time while I table you. That's not fun to me. I crave competition and challenge, and if people aren't willing to take the time to learn to play their army and participate in their hobby, its a worse sin than not painting your army. Painting your army just takes up YOUR time. Playing a game with me that isn't fun because you haven't an ounce of tactical sense (but look at the inked fill-ins!) wastes your time AND my time, which is even worse.

Sounds to me like you do look down on people that don't take gaming as seriously as you. By the way, most people take longer than six months to fully paint their army so they have more a time investment commitment than you. You should respect their commitment if you expect them to respect yours.

Dashofpepper wrote:When I play a game against someone and I beat them down because they're not very good, you know what I do? I have an after action review (AAR) with them, and talk about what tactical changes, or army list changes might have helped, what I noticed, and how I think they could improve to fare better next time.

I do *NOT* frown down the end of my nose at their tactical inferiority and suggest that they go play something requiring less brainpower, or demand that they learn how to play before playing me against to prevent me from being bored during a game.

How is having an "AAR" any different than suggesting to someone how to get their army painted. You're trying to improve an aspect of the hobby that you think is not up to par. I hope you realize that you're contradicted yourself in your above two quotes and you come across as an extreme WAAC in the majority of your posts.

gorgon wrote:So you want to nut-hammer someone who views the hobby differently than you because you feel it's wrong to judge others based on how they view the hobby.

GENIUS.

Thanks for taking what I wrote out of context. I want to nut-hammer anyone who ridicules or treats another gamer poorly. Period.

Look throughout this thread. How many people in here have said, "Oh, you don't want to participate in my hobby the way I want you to? Go find another hobby." That is pure, unadulterated, bull. Who the **** is anyone here to tell another person that they need to go find another hobby if they're not willing to conform to a particular belief about how their plastic toys should be treated?


*EDIT* And Tazok, while my army is painted, colorfully, with a lot of details...it won't ever win a painting contest. My wife paints most of it, I paint some, and neither of us would ever get hired to commission paint someone's stuff; my hand isn't steady enough with a paintbrush to paint straight lines, even though I have a magnifying glass/light on my desk to try helping my painting.

Call me a WAAC player...continue frowning on people who don't line up to your Hilterian beliefs that there is only one true way. Yep - I like to win. I've never taken a cookie-cutter list of anything, but I consistently win nonetheless; I'm simply a superior tactician. I play 40k so that I can be a general over my army and see them excel. I play for tactics, strategy, and hanging out. Not to paint and frown at other people for not loving their paintbrushes like I do.

Frazzled wrote:
Again I disagree. To many, the gaming itself is the equivalent of drinking beer and playing cards with a group of friends. Indeed I could just as soon be throwing lead downrange, and sipping a wine bsing with the crew before the movie starts.

that's how it is for me.. Personally I don't drink, so getting together with friends is my socialization. Sometimes we hit the shooting range, sometimes we play warhammer or bloodbowl or space hulk or whatever and sometimes we shoot paintballs at each other.

Sometimes we point out that an army is still unpainted after 6 months with no progress, we usually make a big deal of this, so the offender feels really really stupid for not doing anything.. That no progress army player is the one who buys the rounds for the next shooting activity (that's motivation enough to paint your damn army in our group)..

Although I keep reminding the younger crowd, you can drink and you can shoot but you can't drink and shoot at the same time, we don't allow that kinda hillbilly crap to go on..

Sorry, but the, 'Ah, you don't respect the view of someone who doesn't respect yours so you're just as bad' thing doesn't work here. According to that kind of logic, we shouldn't lock kidnappers up, because then we're doing exactly the same thing as them by holding someone against their will.

NO.

Go and practice your pseudo-philosophical psychological paradoxes somewhere else please.

Painting is a large part of the hobby and really the only way to justify the cost of the models. Otherwise, Lord Manimal is correct that there are other games that will provide a far better bang for your gaming buck. I'll also add that D&D/Star Wars minis, Confrontation, AT-43 and a number of other games come prepainted. If you're looking for solely the gaming aspect, one of those might fit your needs much better than 40K.

I probably spend 6 hours painting for every one hour of playing. If I removed the painting time from the equation, the cost of 40K/WFB would be very difficult to justify.

Half my armies are unpainted since I'm a fairly slow painter. Ergo, I'm not going to refuse to play unpainted armies. I do prefer playing with my painted armies, and I think it's very noticeable how much more fun the game is with two painted armies and some decent terrain.

I'd recommend people paint just because it will make the game much more fun for them and their opponent.

ArbitorIan wrote:
It's absolutely fine for you not to paint your models. You're free to do whatever you want.

Pretty much. The problem is that its rather uncool to have two squads of bare plastic anything next to each other, or heaven forbid interleaved. It just causes trouble, and is basically uncool. The more it drifts from wysiwyg the worse things get.

There is a social convention that folks point their wargames minis. Its just good form no matter the system, since it helps identify models/units for both players.

Asmodai wrote:Painting is a large part of the hobby and really the only way to justify the cost of the models. Otherwise, Lord Manimal is correct that there are other games that will provide a far better bang for your gaming buck. I'll also add that D&D/Star Wars minis, Confrontation, AT-43 and a number of other games come prepainted. If you're looking for solely the gaming aspect, one of those might fit your needs much better than 40K.

I probably spend 6 hours painting for every one hour of playing. If I removed the painting time from the equation, the cost of 40K/WFB would be very difficult to justify.

Half my armies are unpainted since I'm a fairly slow painter. Ergo, I'm not going to refuse to play unpainted armies. I do prefer playing with my painted armies, and I think it's very noticeable how much more fun the game is with two painted armies and some decent terrain.

I'd recommend people paint just because it will make the game much more fun for them and their opponent.

Sorry I do not subscribe to the gentle judging of "maybe you should play another game."

translation: I call bs. You can do what you want. Those that don't like it can suck it and I'd point and laugh at them anyway (but I mean it in the best way possible).
Being old means you don't give a gak what other people think.

Some people like to paint. Let them paint.
Some like to model. Let them model.
Some like to play with lists. Let them play.
Some like to game. Let them game.
Don't oppress me with your RULZ MAAN!

Wow a lot of childish mindsets in this thread.

You guys know that it is ok for other people to spend there money how they want and play a game how they want to play. If someone does not want to paint but enjoys playing warhams then that is cool, no really it is, he is ok to do that without being wierd just because he does not view the world through the same eyes that you do.

The place I play at accepts peoples armies no matter what state of painting they are in. Most have really basic paint jobs, others are only primed, one guy has had his army for a year and hasn't even primed it.
We dont care in terms of the paint jobs because we are all there to play the game, not get into a story telling experience. Only one guy there is really into LARPing and D&D, and while his stuff is painted, he doesnt go off on people whos stuff is the bare plastic. Sure we make fun of people who dont have their stuff painted, but in a playful way, not a "You dont get your stuff painted you dont play" tone.

For whatever reason I had some kind of mental awakening and decided the paint scheme of my 15K point army was crap. I spent almost 2 months stripping and re-assembling my entire army, and I am about half way done with painting them all. I still use my primed but unpainted models because again, Im there to play.

Some people dont like to paint, or dont want to paint. Fine. You can choose not to play with them, or try to push them away from the hobby, but who is that going to hurt in the long run? Thats one less person to play, and to others who dont feel the same way as you do (and there are ALOT of us out there), you will look like a jerk.

Everyone is entitled to their option, just don't force it on others.

Alright! Lets stop playing proverbial ping-pong with the points! Lets look at this is a rational, subjective manner.

1) Many players feel that painting/Converting is a major factor in the game, and feel that their hobby experience is less if you don't paint.
2) By not painting, you are makeing them question the importance of what they do. People hate to think, and this results in a snobby, superior attitude as Painters develope a mentality that pushes non-painters into a lower class of lifeform, thereby establishing that, by painting, they are showing their supperiority, thus establishing the importance of what they do (Painting).
3) By not painting, you appear lazy, as the painters generally have time or find time, and, in a very human manner, judge you by their own standards. Either that or you appear to be a Skinflint, because you don't seem to care enough about your armies appearance to send it in for a commission job. Either way, you look like a slob, and they treat you as one.

However, there are counterpoints:

1) Money. This hobby is expensive. Paints, primer, brushes, all of these cost money. Many players would rather have lots of WYSIWYG Models than a small selection of painted armies. The models also cost a lot, which explains the profusion of Proxy and empty base armies.
2) Time. Often even harder to find than money. Who will have more time: the 16-year-old on summer vacation, or the Guy with a full-time job, a hour long commute, three kids and a pile of housework? Obviously, the 16-year-old, who probably only has a part-time job, no kids, and some chores.
3) Many people just do not feel that painting is that important. They do not want to bother painting that army, and would rather just go play Apocolypse. They also do not want to pay for pro painting, as they would rather go buy a Stompa. These people are in it for the gameplay, and don't want to find some obscure game with only 3 other guys in the country playing it.

But, there are solutions!

Painters: Lower your stadards a bit for games at the club, but feel free to ding them in tournaments.

Non Painters: I have prepared a small FAQ on some of the non-paint Related parts of painting

Q)What if we can't afford the supplies?
A) Simple. Take a good, hard look at your expenses, particularily at the luxury section. Ask yourself, can I cut back on anything here? Sometimes it's easy. If you are always buying more models for your army, try cutting back a bit. Next month, buy painting suppies instead of new models. Six pack a day smoker? Try cutting down to five. That will really see the cash pile up. Same with Coffee. Make it from home instead of buying from Starbucks. Consolidate trips, and the money will flow (Gas is murder these days). Small things, but over time they really pay off. Some still may not be able to afford anyhting more than they already can, but many will find themselves rolling in dough.

Q) What if I simply do not have the time?
A) Finding time is easy. Finished Lunch? Spend the rest of your break painting those space marines that are stored under your desk. Finished work, and your date isn't for half an hour? Painting time! Same with Breakfast to work. Half an hour? Great! Watching the News? Try just listening and glanceing up occasionaly. Your eyes are now free to paint! Even if the amount of time that you can find is still small, remember: 15 Minutes a week is better than no time at all.

Q) What if I just don't care?
A) Then it is perfectly understandable for someone who paint's and plays to regard themselves as more into the hobby than you.

Asmodai wrote:Painting is a large part of the hobby and really the only way to justify the cost of the models. Otherwise, Lord Manimal is correct that there are other games that will provide a far better bang for your gaming buck. I'll also add that D&D/Star Wars minis, Confrontation, AT-43 and a number of other games come prepainted. If you're looking for solely the gaming aspect, one of those might fit your needs much better than 40K.
/quote]

... and the winner of the most condescending comment goes to that man there. Well done sir. I'll just get those offending grey plastic models out of your sight and go and play the games that you allow me to.

Y'know, I'm happy for all the people that feel rewarded by spending as much time as they do in modeling and painting.

Here is what I do in the time that the painters are painting:

Work 2 jobs; loan officer during the day and ballroom dance teacher 2-3 nights per week.

Take my ballroom competition training and practice with my partner.

Go out social dancing with friends.

Go to the gym 6-8 hours per week on average.

Practice with my club volleyball team; go to tournaments every month or so.

Have a social life by having at least one date-like-thing per week.

My life is very full. During the week, I leave my apartment by 7:30 in the morning and don't usually get back until 8:30 to 9:00, not until 11:00 if I teach that night. I usually have 3-4 hours on Saturday afternoon to spend with my gamer friends, and I'd rather spend that playing something that sitting around painting.

So, which of the above things that I do (that I actually enjoy) should I give up so that I can paint (which I hate) so that I can keep the "paint your minis" types happy?

Frazzled wrote:
Some people like to paint. Let them paint.
Some like to model. Let them model.
Some like to play with lists. Let them play.
Some like to game. Let them game.

Some like to judge. Let them judge

Point! Utan!

*shakes his head*

I can't believe the absolutely ugly, elitist, too-clean-to-touch-you attitude that is rearing its head in this thread. Some of you folks need to listen to yourselves - the idea that you'd bar someone from playing a GAME with you because they haven't spent as much time painting as you have is ridiculous. This isn't the southern United States in 1960...keep the black kids out of my school, and you're going to turn around and bring something else offensive?

Yeah...you don't appreciate some aspect of how you spend your fun time, I think you need to find another hobby. I'm on the verge of vulgarity here and holding back the best that I can, but you folks need to have a brand smoked into your forehead that is a word starting with "C" and refers to a woman's no-no place.

Saldiven wrote:Y'know, I'm happy for all the people that feel rewarded by spending as much time as they do in modeling and painting.

Here is what I do in the time that the painters are painting:

Work 2 jobs; loan officer during the day and ballroom dance teacher 2-3 nights per week.

Take my ballroom competition training and practice with my partner.

Go out social dancing with friends.

Go to the gym 6-8 hours per week on average.

Practice with my club volleyball team; go to tournaments every month or so.

Have a social life by having at least one date-like-thing per week.

My life is very full. During the week, I leave my apartment by 7:30 in the morning and don't usually get back until 8:30 to 9:00, not until 11:00 if I teach that night. I usually have 3-4 hours on Saturday afternoon to spend with my gamer friends, and I'd rather spend that playing something that sitting around painting.

So, which of the above things that I do (that I actually enjoy) should I give up so that I can paint (which I hate) so that I can keep the "paint your minis" types happy?

Perhaps get up 15 minutes earlier. There is 15 minutes per day that you could spend on painting.

Dashofpepper wrote:*shakes his head*

I can't believe the absolutely ugly, elitist, too-clean-to-touch-you attitude that is rearing its head in this thread. Some of you folks need to listen to yourselves - the idea that you'd bar someone from playing a GAME with you because they haven't spent as much time painting as you have is ridiculous. This isn't the southern United States in 1960...keep the black kids out of my school, and you're going to turn around and bring something else offensive?

Skokie wasn't in the South. Rodney King wasn't in the South. Black Panther party didn't start in the South. Just a gentle reminder.

Yeah...you don't appreciate some aspect of how you spend your fun time, I think you need to find another hobby. I'm on the verge of vulgarity here and holding back the best that I can, but you folks need to have a brand smoked into your forehead that is a word starting with "C" and refers to a woman's no-no place.

People can do what they want. Don't want to play me for whatever reason? Thats completely fine. Their loss.

Frazzled wrote:

Sorry I do not subscribe to the gentle judging of "maybe you should play another game."

translation: I call bs. You can do what you want. Those that don't like it can suck it and I'd point and laugh at them anyway (but I mean it in the best way possible).
Being old means you don't give a gak what other people think.

Some people like to paint. Let them paint.
Some like to model. Let them model.
Some like to play with lists. Let them play.
Some like to game. Let them game.
Don't oppress me with your RULZ MAAN!

Then don't oppress me with you gray blobs of plastic.

Seriously though, it's like you have a friend who enjoys shooting bottles off of fence posts. He's buying $75 bottle of champagne for the purpose. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that he can get $3 bottles that suit the purpose just as well.

Maybe he really enjoys seeing the fizz when the champagne bottles explode and will keep shooting them. There's no point arguing with him about it, but there's also nothing wrong with pointing out that alternatives exist.

(Another alternative is VASSAL, you get the full 40K rules, can field whatever army you want, spend no money and no one will complain about your painting.)

Saldiven wrote:Y'know, I'm happy for all the people that feel rewarded by spending as much time as they do in modeling and painting.

Here is what I do in the time that the painters are painting:

Work 2 jobs; loan officer during the day and ballroom dance teacher 2-3 nights per week.

Take my ballroom competition training and practice with my partner.

Go out social dancing with friends.

Go to the gym 6-8 hours per week on average.

Practice with my club volleyball team; go to tournaments every month or so.

Have a social life by having at least one date-like-thing per week.

My life is very full. During the week, I leave my apartment by 7:30 in the morning and don't usually get back until 8:30 to 9:00, not until 11:00 if I teach that night. I usually have 3-4 hours on Saturday afternoon to spend with my gamer friends, and I'd rather spend that playing something that sitting around painting.

So, which of the above things that I do (that I actually enjoy) should I give up so that I can paint (which I hate) so that I can keep the "paint your minis" types happy?

Odd, I have a rewarding career and full social life, but I can easily find 10-15 minutes here and there when dinner is cooking, I'm ready for work earlier than I expected, waiting for friends to show up when I'm going out.

Everyone's life involves short gaps between activities unless you live in some Dickensian workhouse. If you just spend those 10-15 chunks painting a few times a week, you'll have a painted army within a year and it involves sacrificing none of the things you mentioned. It's just a matter of time management. If you do the "two colours and dip method", you'd probably be done and fully painted in a month.

Dashofpepper wrote:Thanks for taking what I wrote out of context. I want to nut-hammer anyone who ridicules or treats another gamer poorly. Period.

Is simply saying "I'd rather not play with you" bad treatment? That's what you said here, and that's what I'm responding to:

Short of that, if someone is criticizing someone for lack of paint, or not wanting to play with them, or segregating them out of their group because they think they're better...hammer to the nuts for you.

If you're going to come at this from a "pursuit of happiness" standpoint, then pro-paint hobbyists should be allowed to pursue their hobby with those of a similar mindset and not be called to the carpet for it either.

Personally, I'm all for live and let live. But live and let live does not involve nut-hammers.

Dashofpepper wrote:*shakes his head*

I can't believe the absolutely ugly, elitist, too-clean-to-touch-you attitude that is rearing its head in this thread. Some of you folks need to listen to yourselves - the idea that you'd bar someone from playing a GAME with you because they haven't spent as much time painting as you have is ridiculous. This isn't the southern United States in 1960...keep the black kids out of my school, and you're going to turn around and bring something else offensive?

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
2) By not painting, you are makeing them question the importance of what they do. People hate to think, and this results in a snobby, superior attitude as Painters develope a mentality that pushes non-painters into a lower class of lifeform, thereby establishing that, by painting, they are showing their supperiority, thus establishing the importance of what they do (Painting).

Its the exact same attitudes.

I'm assuming his life is busy and he doesn't want to paint.

Thats just fine. He will play with people that don't care. Those that do care with play only with other like minded individuals. It balances out as it should. Frazzled will still be cranky. All is right in the world.

(I find it ironic my game play is predomonantly with people who routinely win best painted)