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Please note that I don't actually play with 'pogs' anymore. That was just when I was starting out, and wanted to play the game WAY more than I wanted to model.

My main point here is that you should prepare for whatever you want from the hobby. If I'm here to play a game, and you are too, whether my stuff is painted or not is irrelevant. If I'm entering a painting contest, I would expect people to have painted figures. If you want to have a game where the theming and painting of the army is just as important as the gaming, then sure, but accept the fact that someone who's there for the gaming might not have put fifty gajillion hours into painting their lash list. You're both there for different reasons, and I doubt you'll get as much out of the game as you would if you were playing against someone there for the same reason( to play a serious competitive game, or an awesome looking fluffy campaign game).

Didn't read the thread but I know how it goes.

The point of miniature wargames is to play with figures and terrain that look as nice as you can make them. Otherwise just play counter games or computer games.

It doesn't matter if you paint them yourself or bought them painted/built. I have both.

It doesn't matter if they aren't Golden Demon standard -- GW has raised expectations far too high and discouraged a lot of players. If they are Golden Demon standard, then well done!

Just let them not be grey plastic.

Ketara Dont ignore the fact that to play in a official tornament you have to paint it as part of the rules... Its fair enough to assume thats the official GW stance on this... And for a good reason (apart the business side of things)... thats why most assume a ideal game would be with painted miniatures... If you disagree with it its ok we live in a free world... although GW is not that democratic

Just so long as you remember that rocks are NOT free, citizen. Or it shall be the Blue Chair for you!


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Sorry. I just realized that I am PUI.

LunaHound wrote:Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.

Aren't you doing just that by assuming we should value things the same way you do?

I know it's a catch 22..

If I'm playing with a painted army and my opponent on multiple occassions shows up with no progress, I'm going to tell them I'm disappointed in their progress and ask them what help they need to progress their paint job. If it bothers me enough, i'll just let them know that if they really want to play against me that they need to progress the paint job.. I'm willing to help them too.

And good natured ribbing about paint jobs or lack thereof, bad dice rolls, name calling etc. is part of the game and I'm fine with that.

I'm a bit of a hobby purist in that I hate playing with and against unpainted models. I like it to be a cinematic experience as much as possible, so that means painted models to the highest possible standard.

That said, I do find I spend huge amounts of time painting models rather than playing with them. I have also lost count of the amount of times I have scrapped a painting project (i.e. a box of miniatures) because I didn't like the way I had posed one of them, or the blue wasn't quite right. It's quite autistic really.

So credit to the people who just get on play. Maybe I should!

two_heads_talking wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.

Aren't you doing just that by assuming we should value things the same way you do?

I know it's a catch 22..

If I'm playing with a painted army and my opponent on multiple occassions shows up with no progress, I'm going to tell them I'm disappointed in their progress and ask them what help they need to progress their paint job. If it bothers me enough, i'll just let them know that if they really want to play against me that they need to progress the paint job.. I'm willing to help them too.

And good natured ribbing about paint jobs or lack thereof, bad dice rolls, name calling etc. is part of the game and I'm fine with that.

This is my type of gaming!

I don't know if I would call it elitism. I have to admit that when I have spent hours and hours painting miniatures and someone shows up for years with grey plastic I do get annoyed. I mean I just spent a lot of time painting and this guy can't even make an effort.

This has been said before but to many people, the painted aspect of this game is one of the main reasons people choose to play. It doesn't make them elitist. I have never refused to play someone with grey plastic, but If given the choice and all things being being equal, I would rather play someone that has taken the time to paint and to at least try to bring me some enjoyment as well.


GG

Painted armies should still be the goal that everyone strives for.

Having said that, I fully respect that people work at different paces and have different levels of interest in painting. I really do get that.

However, I tend to react more negatively to single young people claiming they don't have time to paint, because most of them are lying. Most of you will never have so much free time in your life as you have now. Once you have to balance the demands of a career, marriage, young children, bad commutes, etc. you'll be amazed how much you can do once you start managing your time better.

I might get an hour of "me" time on a weekday. Many days it's 30 minutes. Some days it's none. And yet I still make progress on my army. It's slow progress...but I still make progress. If I can do that, you young people have the ability to off the DVD player/WoW/console game or cut back on your 9.5 hours of sleep each day to paint once in a while.

If you make slow progress because you're just not into it much, then be honest and say it. I'm alright with that.

LunaHound wrote:
Well , you 2 are looking at someone that never fiinshed painting a single army. The most i have ever painted (per army wise) is 1 squad of Necron Warriors .

Man, I don't mean to sound like a snob, but I painted 4000K of Bretonnians in a month, and god knows how many points of Space Marines in 2 months (6000+ easily). I work full time, as active duty military, have after hours exercises, 3 kids, I'm an apprentice blacksmith, have a muscle project car, a motorcycle, am married, and that's just getting started. To pretend like you don't have time to paint an army is just plain silly. If you watch TV, you have time to paint.

Hell, you're running necrons! I can paint an entire 3000+ necron army in ONE afternoon! Spraypaint black, dust on metallic silver spraypaint, then dip in army painter and you are DONE. I mean seriously, you're just kidding yourself if you act like you don't have time to paint. I've never met a human with a busier schedule than mine, and I can still turn and burn fully painted Memoir 44 sets at about 2 per month for sale on ebay for about 150$. My painting boardgame sets pays for my GW hobbies.

It's not elitism when people call you out for "not having time" it's just B.S. It's like saying "I own the moon."

Lord Manimal wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
Well , you 2 are looking at someone that never fiinshed painting a single army. The most i have ever painted (per army wise) is 1 squad of Necron Warriors .

Man, I don't mean to sound like a snob, but I painted 4000K of Bretonnians in a month, and god knows how many points of Space Marines in 2 months (6000+ easily). I work full time, as active duty military, have after hours exercises, 3 kids, I'm an apprentice blacksmith, have a muscle project car, a motorcycle, am married, and that's just getting started. To pretend like you don't have time to paint an army is just plain silly. If you watch TV, you have time to paint.

Hell, you're running necrons! I can paint an entire 3000+ necron army in ONE afternoon! Spraypaint black, dust on metallic silver spraypaint, then dip in army painter and you are DONE. I mean seriously, you're just kidding yourself if you act like you don't have time to paint. I've never met a human with a busier schedule than mine, and I can still turn and burn fully painted Memoir 44 sets at about 2 per month for sale on ebay for about 150$. My painting boardgame sets pays for my GW hobbies.

It's not elitism when people call you out for "not having time" it's just B.S. It's like saying "I own the moon."

... and BANG! there you have it. It's B.S. or lazy having unpainted models. Lets ignore the fact that the person has an assembled army and knows the rules inside out and is a balanced player. In your mind there is an issue with them because the models aren't painted.

Lord Manimal wrote:

It's not elitism when people call you out for "not having time" it's just B.S. It's like saying "I own the moon."

Yes, except when you actually do own the moon like I do.

There's a big section in the rules about how a game of miniatures is supposed to be fun for both participants.

Games are more enjoyable when both sides are fielding painted armies and obviously have some care put into them. One should strive to field a painted army, as this will make the experience more enjoyable for your opponent.

To those who say, "no time" - yeah, whatever. It's not that there is no time, it's that you choose to do other things with it. I too work a full time job, own a home and must maintain it, commute daily, and have a family that also wants my attention. What I don't do: watch tv.

If MegaDave can build and paint his entire army in a weekend then there's no reason that anyone should not be able to finish 2000 points in three months.

That is a very good example. Truly so.

MegaDave is hardcore for doing this, but he makes a very solid point unintentionally (perhaps, yet MegaDave is a mysterious figure) about a major aspect of the hobby. Having a finished army is extremely satisfying I am sure, and forcing yourself to accomplish a goal previously unattained is even better.

There are a lot of people Myself included that do not play as often as they want to becasue of this.
When I first started collecting 40k, NO one that I knew would game against an unpainted army. For people that have jobs, families, children etc. painting will have to take a backseat.
I feel as long as the opponent has an actual army not a crap load of "counts-as" and they have made an effort for WYSISYG, then it is all good.
IMO.

Kanluwen wrote:If you're going to do a miniatures game, you can take the time to paint.
It's not like you're playing 24/7, and in the most part of gaming groups they'll require SOME form of painting at least.

I agree with Kanluwen.

My prospective is that you at least try to paint. I don't care how bad it looks, especially if your excuse is that you don't have time.

Any progress is good progress. More you do it, the better you get. Etc, etc...

Playing versus a all based coat army is lame, just is.

Lord Manimal wrote:....It's not elitism when people call you out for "not having time" it's just B.S. It's like saying "I own the moon."

You have a busy schedule by the sound of it. You are also extremely motivated to do certain things in your life. And yet it is so hard for you to accept that others possibly are motivated to play, but could care less about painting? You can sit there and call BS. Congratulations, you win 7 internets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I'll throw the eighth one in for free.

Redbeard wrote:
If MegaDave can build and paint his entire army in a weekend then there's no reason that anyone should not be able to finish 2000 points in three months.

It's finding a spare weekend I have problems with at the moment. I'd advise Dakka members never to get married. Wedding preparations are sucking away my life!

EDIT - But in a good way, honest

If you have the time to assemble armies, just don't switch and paint it instead. Instantly, you get more motivation to stick with it.

I vastly prefer armies that are painted to unpainted. 'polystyrene grey' and 'pewter white' are NOT valid colourschemes, either.
Otherwise, just how hard can it be to spray on the undercoat, basecoat one colour, and add a few details in two others?
My Marine army used to get a squad assembled and painted in about 4 hours. I ended up doing it in a sort of production line manner, and still ended up with posed and detailed models. I mean, sure, dark blue washed space marines with shiny metal guns and shoulderpads with black casings and green-painted bases aren't the prettiest of armies, but it came out looking good.

My Guard, however, are going unassambled and unpainted due to a lack of impetus. Only recently did I get an idea of what I wanted to do with them, or decide on a means to DO it.
Well, that and the chosen paint scheme reacted with my hayfever, so I was painting camoflage schemes while my nose and eyes were streaming.

The moral is, basically, that ink washes take very little time but come out with shaded, finished-looking models. Just applying blue ink to my marines was the difference between 'oh, this guy can't paint, laugh at him' to my models being used in the store's mega-battles and being complimented on the finished army.
With the only difference being the ink itself; older models just got inked, and the splashes on the detailing touched up.

grizgrin wrote:

Lord Manimal wrote:....It's not elitism when people call you out for "not having time" it's just B.S. It's like saying "I own the moon."

You have a busy schedule by the sound of it. You are also extremely motivated to do certain things in your life. And yet it is so hard for you to accept that others possibly are motivated to play, but could care less about painting? You can sit there and call BS. Congratulations, you win 7 internets.

He's not - he's pointing out that the excuse-makers are exactly that.

There are two types of players that don't paint:

a) the ones that have absolutely no interest in doing so - they are only interested in playing.
b) the ones that can't be bothered.

A lot of the people that claim to be group a) are actually group b) but aren't admitting it.

There are two types of players that don't paint:

a) the ones that have absolutely no interest in doing so - they are only interested in playing.
b) the ones that can't be bothered.

A lot of the people that claim to be group a) are actually group b) but aren't admitting it.

For example, Wolfstan objects to using pogs instead of models (so clearly finds the asthetics of the model to be part of the game) but doesn't paint. Which group is he in? On that subject, would he care to answer the question that I posed him?

Kilkrazy wrote:Didn't read the thread but I know how it goes.

The point of miniature wargames is to play with figures and terrain that look as nice as you can make them. Otherwise just play counter games or computer games.

It doesn't matter if you paint them yourself or bought them painted/built. I have both.

It doesn't matter if they aren't Golden Demon standard -- GW has raised expectations far too high and discouraged a lot of players. If they are Golden Demon standard, then well done!

Just let them not be grey plastic.

I have to disagree. The point of miniature wargames is to hang with comrades and have fun. The miniatures are only as relevant as you want them to be.


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gorgon wrote:Having fun as you see fit should still be the goal that everyone strives for.
Correc ted your typo for you

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Didn't read the thread but I know how it goes.

The point of miniature wargames is to play with figures and terrain that look as nice as you can make them. Otherwise just play counter games or computer games.

It doesn't matter if you paint them yourself or bought them painted/built. I have both.

It doesn't matter if they aren't Golden Demon standard -- GW has raised expectations far too high and discouraged a lot of players. If they are Golden Demon standard, then well done!

Just let them not be grey plastic.

I have to disagree. The point of miniature wargames is to hang with comrades and have fun. The miniatures are only as relevant as you want them to be.

No, you've made one of your very rare mistakes, Frazz.

You can hang with friends and have fun justd rinking beer. if you do any more complex activity, the activity has a point in itself as well as the fun.

You know, JJ did this month's Standard Bearer on this subject. Apparently it's all about pie, which piece you enjoy the most and how large it is.

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Didn't read the thread but I know how it goes.

The point of miniature wargames is to play with figures and terrain that look as nice as you can make them. Otherwise just play counter games or computer games.

It doesn't matter if you paint them yourself or bought them painted/built. I have both.

It doesn't matter if they aren't Golden Demon standard -- GW has raised expectations far too high and discouraged a lot of players. If they are Golden Demon standard, then well done!

Just let them not be grey plastic.

I have to disagree. The point of miniature wargames is to hang with comrades and have fun. The miniatures are only as relevant as you want them to be.


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gorgon wrote:Having fun as you see fit should still be the goal that everyone strives for.
Correc ted your typo for you

Just to tease a bit... you dont need wargames for that

Scott-S6 wrote:

grizgrin wrote:

Lord Manimal wrote:....It's not elitism when people call you out for "not having time" it's just B.S. It's like saying "I own the moon."

You have a busy schedule by the sound of it. You are also extremely motivated to do certain things in your life. And yet it is so hard for you to accept that others possibly are motivated to play, but could care less about painting? You can sit there and call BS. Congratulations, you win 7 internets.

He's not - he's pointing out that the excuse-makers are exactly that.

There are two types of players that don't paint:

a) the ones that have absolutely no interest in doing so - they are only interested in playing.
b) the ones that can't be bothered.

A lot of the people that claim to be group a) are actually group b) but aren't admitting it.

There are two types of players that don't paint:

a) the ones that have absolutely no interest in doing so - they are only interested in playing.
b) the ones that can't be bothered.

A lot of the people that claim to be group a) are actually group b) but aren't admitting it.

For example, Wolfstan objects to using pogs instead of models (so clearly finds the asthetics of the model to be part of the game) but doesn't paint. Which group is he in? On that subject, would he care to answer the question that I posed him?

Hmm, where did I say that I don't paint? See my first post. For the record I have painted:

1 RoE Panzer Lehr force
1 RoE Royal Marine Commando force
1 RoE US Paratroopers force
1 large force of Syntha
2 Warhammer Historical Pirate gangs
A large group of Wolfen
A large group of Kelts
Building a Panzer Lehr FoW force
A Very British Civil War force
Working on my Gripping Beast Vikings
Painting up a Valkyrie to sell
Painting up a Drop Pod to sell
Painting up a Baneblade to sell
Painting up an Infinity force
Painting up a Junkers force

I have sold over the last few years:

A fully painted 6000pt + Space Wolf army
A fully painted Sisters of Battle army (approx 2000pts)
A fully painted Warhammer Dwarf army (approx 2000pts)
A fully painted Tallarn army (2000pts)
A fully painted Trollbloods army
A fully painted Menoth force
A fully painted PBI Russian force

Nuff said.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Didn't read the thread but I know how it goes.

The point of miniature wargames is to play with figures and terrain that look as nice as you can make them. Otherwise just play counter games or computer games.

It doesn't matter if you paint them yourself or bought them painted/built. I have both.

It doesn't matter if they aren't Golden Demon standard -- GW has raised expectations far too high and discouraged a lot of players. If they are Golden Demon standard, then well done!

Just let them not be grey plastic.

I have to disagree. The point of miniature wargames is to hang with comrades and have fun. The miniatures are only as relevant as you want them to be.

No, you've made one of your very rare mistakes, Frazz.

You can hang with friends and have fun justd rinking beer. if you do any more complex activity, the activity has a point in itself as well as the fun.

Oh I make mistakes on a second by second basis

Again I disagree. To many, the gaming itself is the equivalent of drinking beer and playing cards with a group of friends. Indeed I could just as soon be throwing lead downrange, and sipping a wine bsing with the crew before the movie starts.

I have to agree with Luna's original post.

I have been playing Warhammer 40K since the Rogue Trader book came out in, I think, 1988-1989. I still own the first print I bought from Komix Kastle in Macon, GA when I was in high school. When I was younger and had more free time, I enjoyed painting.

Now, I see painting and sculpting as an albatross around my neck. I know that other people really enjoy their painting and love it. More power to them. I can appreciate a well painted army.

Personally, I hate it. I can think of about a dozen things that I would rather be doing that are more rewarding to my life than painting a Warhammer army. That's my opinion, and it is no more or less valid than the opinion of someone who loves their painting.

I play 40K because I enjoy the strategic aspects, the competitive aspects, and the chance to spend time with my friends.

I have been playing for 20 years, and I have exactly two painted armies. Both of them took me forever to do, and they're not particularly good. I know I could to better, but there are so many things I would rather be doing than sitting at a desk with a paintbrush in my hand.

I'm sorry if some of you will judge me as being somehow deficient as a gamer because of this, but I guarantee you that you'd have a good time playing against me. (Assuming you could get by the poorly painted and unpainted models.)

Ultimately (hopefully), the reason people play a game like 40K is because they enjoy it. There are so many different aspects to 40K that someone can enjoy that it is ridiculous to think that everyone else enjoys the exact same aspects of it as YOU do. No one person's opinions on the matter are superior to anyone else's; opinions are like that.

What we need more of in this hobby is respect for other players and how their perceive the "fun" part of the game/hobby/whatever.

I've known people who were amazing painter/converters who either never played or were horrible players. I've also known great players that were too busy with actual important aspects of real life to do any more than build the models so they could play one or two games on a Saturday. These people derived enjoyment from the game by doing the aspect that they liked. Who am I to judge them and tell them they're doing it wrong?

I never paint.

I just play 40k for the extremely balanced and well-written rules. The inexpensive models are just gravy.

I think we should all aspire to paint our armies. Yes I don't mind playing with someone's half painted army, because I can understand that it's hard to fit in the time to paint/finish an army with work and all of the other trappings of life. I DO get disappointed when I see a sea of plastic on every table, because no one even makes an effort to try and paint their models. No, splashes of colour here and there do not count.

If this is a hobby (and it is), then we should try and get better at EVERY aspect of it. Sure you're awesome at the game, I'm glad! Unfortunately, you're using half built models, with glue everywhere, and one model is basecoated. It just doesn't look attractive! There is definitely an aesthetic value to having two painted armies on the battlefield, and I think we SHOULD call out people who just buy the models, glue them, and put them on a table. Not having the adequate supplies is not an excuse, considering how readily available they are and how readily available free tutorials are on how to paint (either from other gamers, GW Staff [although the quality is lessening as of late], or online). We should at least make an effort to try and paint our models. And really, how hard is learning how to put down basecoats, drybrush highlights, or even use those new GW washes? Obviously, not expecting a Golden Demon standard for everyone, but why can't we aspire to somewhere close? It's just disheartening to similarly see people tossing their models in boxes, throwing them around with no real care or attention. These sort of attitudes really hurt the hobby, not because these people are bad people, but it sets a standard for everyone else that, "it doesn't matter". If this comes across as sounding elitist, then that's what it is.

I would prefer if people at least made an effort to paint their armies before they use them, just because it makes the experience so much more rewarding for everyone.

The few people I've seen with unpainted armies, who absolutely refuse to make ANY progress with them are:
a) TFG(s)
b) Obnoxious kids
c) Combinations of a & b.

Hate away!

Agreed with Luna.

However the GW Hobby lends itself towards elitist attitudes since its the most expensive toy soldiers wargaming hobby out there. That doesn't mean its justified though; however GW elitists have superficial GW tournament rules and such to reinforce their holier-than-thou perspectives.

Its like talking smack about a lvl 80 WOW character who isn't as skilled or geared as someone who devotes a lot more time in raiding/pvping even though WOW can be thoroughly enjoyed through casual play. And then there are guys who have multiple accounts, first ones to do this or that, and a whole lot of other crap that elitists pride themselves on. Pride is fine but not at the expense of others since thats just silly and demeaning.

But to each their own.