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Except that it is specifically stated to not be a psychic power.

Melissia wrote:Because through all of it, they still worshipped the Emperor, not the Dark Gods of Chaos.

They worshipped what they thought was the Emperor, sure.

Why couldn't they have been tricked into thinking that a demonic presence was that of the Emperor?

And if they had, would they still not be True chaos worshippers?

pretre wrote:

Ixquic wrote:
Trading card

What?

There's a trading card that says they are immune to Chaos and we're gonna use that?

Pic or GTFO

My mistake thought that they had the fluff quote on the card itself.

Card does exist tho'
http://www.emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php?title=Characters:Miriael_Sabathiel

Melissia wrote:Except that it is specifically stated to not be a psychic power.

(I assume this is in reference to my thing about faith points.)

So what? Not all demonic gifts are psychic powers.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

It's honestly arguable that faith points represent a chaos deity granting them boons in response to their worship.

Nope, read page 18 of the witch hunter codex. Its the manifestation of the Emperor divine purpose.

Ixquic wrote:

pretre wrote:

Ixquic wrote:
Trading card

What?

There's a trading card that says they are immune to Chaos and we're gonna use that?

Pic or GTFO

My mistake thought that they had the fluff quote on the card itself.

Card does exist tho'
http://www.emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php?title=Characters:Miriael_Sabathiel

Uh no, his point(at least as I read it) was that if we're going to talk about the "validity" of fluff and discount Black Library--why the feth would we use a trading card as a background reference?

I don't have a copy on me. Is this in fluff, or is it in crunch?

If it's in fluff, is it stated by someone in a position to know the difference?

No, because there are no omniscient beings in 40k.

...Except for Tzeentch.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:I don't have a copy on me. Is this in fluff, or is it in crunch?

If it's in fluff, is it stated by someone in a position to know the difference?

No, because there are no omniscient beings in 40k.

...Except for Tzeentch.

Crunch. "AoF are a manifestation of the Emperor's Divine Will..."

It's in the rules section that explains how they work.

How can the Emperor have a divine will? He's a corpsicle.

You can play it your way, but as far as I'm concerned my explanation explains more.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:How can the Emperor have a divine will? He's a corpsicle.

You can play it your way, but as far as I'm concerned my explanation explains more.

But mine is RAW. Read C: WH, it's black and white in the Crunchy Rules section. Their faith in the emperor and his Divine Will give them supernatural powers. Not fluff, rules.

Not to mention, what do you think the Astronomican is? It's his Divine Will.


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Codex: WH p 18 wrote:
Acts of Faith
Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose; small miracles that can turn the tide of battle if used in the correct combination at just the right moment. How many Acts of Faith can be attempted during a game, and which units can make use of them are described below.

Kanluwen wrote:

Ixquic wrote:

pretre wrote:

Ixquic wrote:
Trading card

What?

There's a trading card that says they are immune to Chaos and we're gonna use that?

Pic or GTFO

My mistake thought that they had the fluff quote on the card itself.

Card does exist tho'
http://www.emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php?title=Characters:Miriael_Sabathiel

Uh no, his point(at least as I read it) was that if we're going to talk about the "validity" of fluff and discount Black Library--why the feth would we use a trading card as a background reference?

...and I admitted the caption from a short story wasn't on the card and the point is moot so I'm not sure what you're so strung up about.

pretre wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:How can the Emperor have a divine will? He's a corpsicle.

You can play it your way, but as far as I'm concerned my explanation explains more.

But mine is RAW. Read C: WH, it's black and white in the Crunchy Rules section. Their faith in the emperor and his Divine Will give them supernatural powers. Not fluff, rules.

Not to mention, what do you think the Astronomican is? It's his Divine Will.

Seriously not EVERYTHING that people think is good has to really be the evil machinations of Chaos.

pretre wrote:But mine is RAW.

Repeat after me: the game rules are not the world's physics.

Read C: WH, it's black and white in the Crunchy Rules section. Their faith in the emperor and his Divine Will give them supernatural powers. Not fluff, rules.

Uh.

That's fluff. It's not crunch.

Not to mention, what do you think the Astronomican is? It's his Divine Will.

It's the energy of an untold number of psykers being fed into the golden throne and output to programmed coordinates.

So following on from that, Sisters get their faith points from cannibalising psykers and taking energy away from the Astronomican.


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Ixquic wrote:Seriously not EVERYTHING that people think is good has to really be the evil machinations of Chaos.

Not everything good, just everything that seems way too good to be true.

This quote about the one fallen sister seems to be from the First Person perspective of a Canoness in one short story.

That doesn't seem terribly authoritative.

Second.

It really seems like the only reason to think that only one sister has fallen to Chaos is that everyone else on the way there gets "martyred" before arriving at the destination.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
Repeat after me: the game rules are not the world's physics.

No but the explanations of the world's physics in the rules are.

It's the energy of an untold number of psykers being fed into the golden throne and output to programmed coordinates.

So following on from that, Sisters get their faith points from cannibalising psykers and taking energy away from the Astronomican.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astronomican

My bad, he doesn't generate it. He guides it.

"Although the Emperor does not provide the energy of the beacon, only he has the psychic power to handle such immense energy and direct it across the galaxy. "
"This psychic power is directed by the mind of the Emperor across about fifty thousand light years of the galaxy."


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Problems with canon
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas
The following statement comes from the Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd edition: "A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the prince of chaos' greatest warriors."

However this is clearly contradicted by the Graphic novel Daemonifuge in which a Sister was seduced by a Navigator (who had been corrupted by a daemonic servant of Slaanesh) and several Sisters were completely corrupted by a Keeper of Secrets, a greater Daemon of Slaanesh. The novel "Cain's Last Stand", It is also stated that an entire Mission of Sisters were seen engaging Imperial forces with Chaos cultists, Cain is also confronted by two sisters under Daemon influence.



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Soooo.... Not so much on that no sisters have turned thing.


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And I know, I know... You only accept Codexes and Dark Heresy because BL are heretics that eat babies.

pretre wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
Repeat after me: the game rules are not the world's physics.

No but the explanations of the world's physics in the rules are.

But those explanations are fluff, not crunch.

It's the energy of an untold number of psykers being fed into the golden throne and output to programmed coordinates.

So following on from that, Sisters get their faith points from cannibalising psykers and taking energy away from the Astronomican.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astronomican

My bad, he doesn't generate it. He guides it.

"Although the Emperor does not provide the energy of the beacon, only he has the psychic power to handle such immense energy and direct it across the galaxy. "
"This psychic power is directed by the mind of the Emperor across about fifty thousand light years of the galaxy."

What evidence are we given to believe this over the idea that the Golden Throne does all the directing?

Or are we just told that this is how it is?

I find it an incredible double standard that it's okay for no Grey Knight to have fallen, but oh, if you DARE suggest that the Sisters are nigh-incorruptible, you get a wall of nerdrage and outrage... heh... marinewank indeed.

Meh. Whatever. I'll continue liking the Sisters for what they are to me; shining symbols of what is best about humanity in the war-torn darkness of the 40k universe. Not perfect, but they are at least pure; each Order doing their best to make the galaxy a better place for the various loyal members of the Imperium. Sometimes they don't do it right, sometimes they kill the innocent as well as the wicked. Sometimes they falter, and sometimes they fail. If they didn't, they'd be an army of Mary Sues-- they aren't.

But they are, at least, pure of soul; even if they are but human, they have that much going for them. It's one of the core concepts for them, to me.

Now your just going into crazy conspiracy theories.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
What evidence are we given to believe this over the idea that the Golden Throne does all the directing?

Or are we just told that this is how it is?

We can play the 'you can't prove it' game all day long. But when it comes down to it, the crunch and fluff tell us these things. Yes, we can't be sure that 10 years from now Gav won't come out and say 'AHA TRICKED YOUZ!!!!ONE1' But based on the information we have now in both fluff and rules, the Astronomican is driven by his will and the sisters use his will to do crazy supernatural stuff.


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Melissia wrote:I find it an incredible double standard that it's okay for no Grey Knight to have fallen, but oh, if you DARE suggest that the Sisters are nigh-incorruptible, you get a wall of nerdrage and outrage... heh... marinewank indeed.

You're like the queen of Hyperbole.

Well Melissia, that's the difference between the Sisters and the Grey Knights.

Sisters are human. The Grey Knights aren't.

Oh sure, they appear human, but when it gets down to it they're as close to human as the Primarchs and the Emperor were.

Kanluwen wrote:Sisters are human. The Grey Knights aren't.

Which, in my eyes, makes Sisters BETTER than Grey Knights.

[edit: delete]

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Sisters are human. The Grey Knights aren't.

Which, in my eyes, makes Sisters BETTER than Grey Knights.

It makes them easier to associate with and get into the mindset of(if you're a religious fanatic who's got no problems martyring yourself at least ), sure.

Better? I dunno about that

Melissia wrote:I find it an incredible double standard that it's okay for no Grey Knight to have fallen, but oh, if you DARE suggest that the Sisters are nigh-incorruptible, you get a wall of nerdrage and outrage... heh... marinewank indeed.

It's more plausible to me that no Grey Knight has fallen to the lure of Chaos than it is that no Sister has fallen because Grey Knights are dedicated to fighting Chaos and have safeguards against that which only come from experience.

Further, there's a much smaller number of Grey Knights than there is Sisters. On the law of averages alone it's more likely that a sister will fall than it is that a grey knight will fall.

Melissia wrote:Meh. Whatever. I'll continue liking the Sisters for what they are to me; shining symbols of what is best about humanity in the war-torn darkness of the 40k universe. Not perfect, but they are at least pure; each Order doing their best to make the galaxy a better place for the various loyal members of the Imperium. Sometimes they don't do it right, sometimes they kill the innocent as well as the wicked. Sometimes they falter, and sometimes they fail. If they didn't, they'd be an army of Mary Sues-- they aren't.

But they are, at least, pure of soul; even if they are but human, they have that much going for them. It's one of the core concepts for them, to me.

Sometimes they falter, and sometimes they fail, but they don't fall to Chaos... just because, you see.

I don't find it believable at all that Grey Knights wouldn't whereas Sisters would. They both fight the same enemies, roughly speaking-- Sisters fight chaos and heretics all the time, it's part of their job description. They also fight other enemies, yes, but you would be the first person to deny that Sisters fight heresy. Yes, Grey Knights do have safeguards, but they're all psykers, so the danger to them is even worse than the danger to Sisters, so they need safeguards. The Sisters' safeguards are in their minds and beliefs.

Melissia wrote:I don't find it believable at all that Grey Knights wouldn't whereas Sisters would. They both fight the same enemies, roughly speaking-- Sisters fight chaos and heretics all the time, it's part of their job description. They also fight other enemies, yes, but you would be the first person to deny that Sisters fight heresy.

Not at all.

I'd be the first person to deny that all heresy = chaos, though.

Yes, Grey Knights do have safeguards, but they're all psykers, so the danger to them is even worse than the danger to Sisters, so they need safeguards. The Sisters' safeguards are in their minds and beliefs.

And yet you maintain that there are more sisters than there are Space Marines, and that only one has fallen to the lure of Chaos.

And yet they're human, they have no extranormal safeguards against chaos.

And you persist in talking about marinewank.

We can sit here and come up with all those crazy theories and stuff. But as it stands so far only one sisters has chosen to fall to chaos. Their are several sources to back this up. Every other incident was either sisters being mind controlled or possessed in which case they did not choose to fall to chaos.

Necrosis wrote:We can sit here and come up with all those crazy theories and stuff. But as it stands so far only one sisters has chosen to fall to chaos. Their are several sources to back this up. Every other incident was either sisters being mind controlled or possessed in which case they did not choose to fall to chaos.

pretre wrote:However this is clearly contradicted by the Graphic novel Daemonifuge in which a Sister was seduced by a Navigator (who had been corrupted by a daemonic servant of Slaanesh) and several Sisters were completely corrupted by a Keeper of Secrets, a greater Daemon of Slaanesh. The novel "Cain's Last Stand", It is also stated that an entire Mission of Sisters were seen engaging Imperial forces with Chaos cultists, Cain is also confronted by two sisters under Daemon influence.

Hrmm.

Yes, I do. It isn't wankery, that would be if I suggested that Sisters are the best, that they deserve the best, that they deserve more attention than everyone else, that they are better than everyone else, that they need a dozen codices all to themselves, oh and I did I mention that they are also the best?

I don't suggest any of that, in any way. I merely suggest that purity of soul is one of the defining aspects of the Sisterhood.



edit: And yes, I have specificaly stated that I am not satisfied with the unkind treatment the Sisters get in BL books. Only a SINGLE Black Library book has made Sisters into something one could call even remotely heroic.

Incidentally, 1 sister worshipping chaos is a worse track record than the Grey Knights, who have had a grand total of zero chaos worshippers in their ranks.

So it's proven that Sisters can fall to chaos. It definately can happen. While it theoretically could happen that a Grey Knight falls to Chaos, it hasn't happened yet.

This isn't fanwank, this is FAW.